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American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 12:24:44 PM   
Fightdirecto


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"Decline Of American Exceptionalism"
quote:

Is America exceptional among nations? Are we, as a country and a people and a culture, set apart and better than others? Are we, indeed, the “shining city upon a hill” that Ronald Reagan described? Are we “chosen by God and commissioned by history to be a model to the world” as George W. Bush said?

This year, for the first time, most Americans did not say yes.

According to a report issued on Thursday by the Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes Project, when Americans were asked if they agreed with the statement “our people are not perfect but our culture is superior to others,” only 49 percent agreed. That’s down from 60 percent in 2002, the first time that Pew asked the question.

We are settling into a dangerous national pessimism. We must answer the big questions. Was our nation’s greatness about having God or having grit? Is exceptionalism an anointing or an ethos? If the answers are grit and ethos, then we must work to recapture them. We must work our way out of these doldrums. We must learn our way out. We must innovate our way out.

We have to stop snuggling up to nostalgia, acknowledge that we have allowed a mighty country to be brought low and set a course to restitution. And that course is through hard work and tough choices. You choose greatness; it doesn’t choose you…

We must look out at the world with clear eyes and sober minds and do the difficult work as we’ve done time and time again. That’s how a city shines upon a hill.

Is the United States inherently superior to every other country on Earth?

Is a child born in Tulsa, Oklahoma to parents who are American citizens inherently superior to, say, a child born in Manila, Republic of the Philippines, to parents who are citizens of the Republic of the Philippines?

Is the United States federal government inherently superior to, say, the national government of Australia?

Your comments?


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 12:32:18 PM   
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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 12:39:34 PM   
SixMore2Go


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quote:

Is the United States inherently superior to every other country on Earth?
No, of course it is not. You failed to consider Ireland in your considerations.

quote:

Is a child born in Tulsa, Oklahoma to parents who are American citizens inherently superior to, say, a child born in Manila, Republic of the Philippines, to parents who are citizens of the Republic of the Philippines?
No, the very idea is daft. Its the child born in Coolaney to parents who are citizens of the Republic of Ireland that are inherently superior to all others ... but not if the kid is born in Cork .. they're just scum.

quote:

Is the United States federal government inherently superior to, say, the national government of Australia?
Superior to the Australian government? Well, name one that isn't. You do know that Australia was settled by Irishmen who weren't smart enough to not get nicked don't you?



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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 1:02:46 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


Is the United States inherently superior to every other country on Earth?


No and it's a big fucking mistake to call any American quality 'inherent' we've made that mistake about too may aspects of American life over the last 1/2 century of more and it's been yanked right out from under us while we snoozed.
   But we have something going on here that's special, but it doesn't have to do with 'superiority'.



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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 1:14:49 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
   But we have something going on here that's special, but it doesn't have to do with 'superiority'.

care to elaborate on the "something" that is special? Can you describe what you see that as being?

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 1:33:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 1:39:31 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


care to elaborate on the "something" that is special? Can you describe what you see that as being?


Sure right after you answer the question I have been asking you for a while. You list yourself as being from the OC, yet you act as if you're not in the US and that you really aren't at all fond of America. And please don't take this to mean I am flag waving or expect to out you or some crap like that I am just trying to understand where you are coming from on these issues.
    Hook me up my answer, and I'll be happy to answer yours.



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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 1:53:00 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Capitalism is great when you have opportunities you can make use of to derive a material income or make a profit.

But when you don't have those opportunities or can't make use of them then capitalism doesn't work.

But you know you can make the exact same statement for almost any political ideology.

Capitalism is just a means to an end. The end is all about opportunity and whether the opportunities exist and whether people can make use of them.

This is true both on Wall Street as it is at the very bottom of society. A $10 bill is numerically worth $10, but the opportunity that ten dollar bill represents to the person who has it varies from person to person.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 2:26:55 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


One could also, for the same reason, take the postion that those who claim American exceptionalism are also questionable.

American exceptionalism: an old idea and a new political battle
quote:

Is this a great country or what?

"American exceptionalism" is a phrase that, until recently, was rarely heard outside the confines of think tanks, opinion journals and university history departments.

But with Republicans and tea party activists accusing President Obama and the Democrats of turning the country toward socialism, the idea that the United States is inherently superior to the world's other nations has become the battle cry from a new front in the ongoing culture wars. Lately, it seems to be on the lips of just about every Republican who is giving any thought to running for president in 2012.

"This reorientation away from a celebration of American exceptionalism is misguided and bankrupt," former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney writes in his campaign setup book, "No Apology: The Case For American Greatness."...

For former Alaska governor Sarah Palin, the concept is a frequent theme in her speeches, Facebook postings, tweets and appearances on Fox News Channel. Her just-published book, "America by Heart," has a chapter titled "America the Exceptional."

Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker, contends in his speeches that Obama's views on the subject are "truly alarming."

In an interview in August with Politico, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee went so far as to declare of Obama: "His worldview is dramatically different than any president, Republican or Democrat, we've had...To deny American exceptionalism is in essence to deny the heart and soul of this nation."

And last week, Rick Santorum, the former senator from Pennsylvania, told a group of College Republicans at American University: "Don't kid yourself with the lie. America is exceptional, and Americans are concerned that there are a group of people in Washington who don't believe that any more."

Some, however, wonder whether Obama's conservative critics are sounding an alarm about the United States' place in the world - or making an insidious suggestion about the president himself.

With a more intellectual sheen than the false assertions that Obama is secretly a Muslim or that he was born in Kenya, an argument over American exceptionalism "is a respectable way of raising the question of whether Obama is one of us," said William Galston, a former policy adviser to President Bill Clinton who is now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

Much of this criticism harkens back to a single comment that Obama made at a news conference a year and a half ago in Strasbourg, France, during his first trip overseas as president.

Obama was asked by Financial Times correspondent Ed Luce whether he subscribes, as his predecessors did, "to the school of American exceptionalism that sees America as uniquely qualified to lead the world."

The president's answer began: "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism."

That may have been a nod to the fact that many abroad hear talk of American exceptionalism as worrisome jingoism. But it provided ammunition for Palin and other Republican critics.


Should we add to the list of those with questionable ideas about American Exceptionalism - Milt Romney, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum?

American exceptionalism popular among GOP candidates

quote:

...the idea of American Exceptionalism can serve as a rallying point against a president that some Republicans have labeled an apologist, a socialist and all manner of other anti-American and anti-capitalist buzzwords.

For an example, look no further than the GOP’s current campaign to capi­tal­ize on President Obama’s “lazy” remark. The American Exceptionalist crowd is very much the target of such efforts, as for many of them, the insinuation that Americans are lazy — which isn’t what Obama actually said — makes their blood boil.

quote:

They don't believe we have a special message for the world or a special mission to preserve our greatness for the betterment of not just ourselves but all of humanity. Astonishingly, President Obama even said that he believes in American exceptionalism in the same way "the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism." Which is to say, he doesn't believe in American exceptionalism at all. He seems to think it is just a kind of irrational prejudice in favor of our way of life. To me, that is appalling.

Sarah Palin, America By Heart, pg 69
quote:

“The president went about this all wrong. He went around the world and apologized for America.”
- Mitt Romney
quote:

In the hands of Palin, Beck, et al., American Exceptionalism boils down to little more than a synonym for the tautology “we are powerful because we are God-blessed; we are God-blessed because we are powerful.”
- The Nation 02-02-2011


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 2:32:12 PM   
BanthaSamantha


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American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with inherent superiority. The concept of American Exceptionalism deals with how America is different, not how America is better.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 2:41:05 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


care to elaborate on the "something" that is special? Can you describe what you see that as being?


Sure right after you answer the question I have been asking you for a while. You list yourself as being from the OC, yet you act as if you're not in the US and that you really aren't at all fond of America. And please don't take this to mean I am flag waving or expect to out you or some crap like that I am just trying to understand where you are coming from on these issues.
    Hook me up my answer, and I'll be happy to answer yours.

when did you ask me this question? I dont get notified if someone replies to my posts so if that is how you did ask, then i missed it... I also have not been on here much lately cuz i have been busy elsewhere.. I was not snubbing you, if that is what you think..

I am not fond of the US (its mostly due to govt policy tho), it does have pros and cons..
the US does help its citizens much more than any other country when its citizens get in trouble in other countries (the UK is good too), Canada really sucks in that comparision.
It has opportunities due to the size of the population although there are less now due to the various debacles..
I have stated i will never become an American citizen and that is due to the fact that the US taxes on both citizenship and residency, which I do not agree with (based on residency yes, citizenship no), in Canada you are taxed only based on residency..
I dislike the US govt very much, it is very unrealistic at times (some laws are just stupid, outdated, contradictory, etc) and rigid, there is a lack of humanity, imo. And too, the laws are not applied equally, imo..
it is imo a police state but most Americans either dont see that aspect of control or dont view it as an intrusion (some even see it as a benefit).
i value my privacy, which everyone in the US has less of than what I am used to.
I dislike the influence the govt exerts on other nations (political, financial, force/military)..
I dont agree with some of the recent wars the US has started/jumped into (Iraq and Lybia, for instance)..
I disagree with the US govt printing money like its going out of style.. imo, that will bite the US in the ass eventually..
I dont care for the "you are with us or against us" thing..
I disagree with the war on drugs (primarily pot) and think its a waste of resources, etc..
that is what comes to mind presently..

I would like to point out that i do not agree with everything Canada's govt does either.. again, pros and cons there too..

eta- corruption in US govt (from the Feds to city hall), way bad imo.. Bell, CA for instance, and eminent domain and various other laws being grossly abused by some

< Message edited by tj444 -- 11/19/2011 2:53:20 PM >


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 2:49:09 PM   
kdsub


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I go deeper than political structures although important.

Yes… I feel on average a US citizen is superior to a small degree for one reason...genes. This nation is made up of mostly immigrants. People who packed up their homes and children and moved thousands of miles to start new lives. That takes courage, imagination, and strength. This nation unlike most is still being infused with new industrious peoples of the world hoping for a new life in the promised land of America…This keeps us strong.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/19/2011 2:50:08 PM >


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 2:53:24 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with inherent superiority. The concept of American Exceptionalism deals with how America is different, not how America is better.

The dictionary I consulted (a hard cover book on my shelf published in 1958 which I inherited from my father, not an on-line source) defines "American Exceptionalism" as "an attitude toward other countries, cultures, etc. based on the idea of America is quite distinct from, and often superior to, them in vital ways".



< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 11/19/2011 3:02:29 PM >


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 3:06:15 PM   
BanthaSamantha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with inherent superiority. The concept of American Exceptionalism deals with how America is different, not how America is better.

The dictionary I consulted (a hard cover book on my shelf published in 1958 which I inherited from my father, not an on-line source) defines "American Exceptionalism" as "an attitude toward other countries, cultures, etc. based on the idea of America is quite distinct from, and often superior to, them in vital ways".




Well I'm not going to argue against a fifty year old dictionary entry.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 3:08:05 PM   
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The United States is not exceptional to all other countries. The United States is inferior to several countries. Countries that offer single payer health care, a fully funded education at all levels, and government funded child care are far superior to the United States. Have doubts? Watch Sicko to learn the truth.


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 3:08:21 PM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes… I feel on average a US citizen is superior to a small degree for one reason...genes. This nation is made up of mostly immigrants.



If there is a lasting behavior effect in the American gene pool due to immigration patterns, the most prominent one would be the obesity rates in the US.
People with a higher than normal capability for fat storage where more likely to make it through lean times than people who didn't store fat well.

BTW, are you implying that Australians have a genetic tendency to be criminals, seeing that they have a higher than average percentage of criminal ancestors, or do you feel that America would be the only country in the world that gets it's supposed tendencies due to immigration patterns?
What about South America, whose ancestry is also heavily influence by European settlers?

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 11/19/2011 3:09:33 PM >


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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 3:19:57 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Capitalism measured with governmental regulations is what made this country great from the end of WWII until those regulations began being dismantled.  Capitalism without regulations is what brought us the economy we are now suffering, just as it brought us the depression.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 3:31:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

FR

Capitalism is inherently superior to any other economic structure, both theoretically and in practice. To the extent that we were more capitalist, and when the population was committed to capitalism and self-reliance we were superior as a country. As we become more socialist and fiscally liberal we are coming back to the pack.

No individual is born superior just by virtue of being American. That seems so obvious that the purpose of asking it is questionable.


Capitalism measured with governmental regulations is what made this country great from the end of WWII until those regulations began being dismantled.  Capitalism without regulations is what brought us the economy we are now suffering, just as it brought us the depression.



Wrong. Its capitalism with WRONGHEADED regulations that brought us the economy we are now suffering. I agree some regulation is good, but when that regulation takes the form of social/economic engineering that interferes with capitalism, rather than ensuring that the rules of capitalism are followed, you have what we have had for the last 50 years or so.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:25:59 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

that America would be the only country in the world that gets it's supposed tendencies due to immigration patterns?


No...only the most populous...you know the fighter adage...a good big man will beat a good little man.

Butch

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:32:16 PM   
BanthaSamantha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



Wrong. Its capitalism with WRONGHEADED regulations that brought us the economy we are now suffering. I agree some regulation is good, but when that regulation takes the form of social/economic engineering that interferes with capitalism, rather than ensuring that the rules of capitalism are followed, you have what we have had for the last 50 years or so.


All regulation interferes with capitalism; it doesn't matter if it is a requirement for double redundant safety systems on offshore oil rigs or a requirement to wear gloves when dealing with raw meat. They all, by their very nature, interfere with capitalism on some level.

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