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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:38:53 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

All regulation interferes with capitalism;

No, they don't. Accounting rules/transparency regulations/punishing predatory pricing are examples of regulations that are totally consistent with capitalism.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/19/2011 4:39:44 PM >

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:51:46 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I go deeper than political structures although important.

Yes… I feel on average a US citizen is superior to a small degree for one reason...genes. This nation is made up of mostly immigrants. People who packed up their homes and children and moved thousands of miles to start new lives. That takes courage, imagination, and strength. This nation unlike most is still being infused with new industrious peoples of the world hoping for a new life in the promised land of America…This keeps us strong.

Butch

Well Butch, since mankind started out in one tiny spot in Africa, that blows your theory out of the water.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:55:58 PM

BanthaSamantha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

All regulation interferes with capitalism;

No, they don't. Accounting rules/transparency regulations/punishing predatory pricing are examples of regulations that are totally consistent with capitalism.

Accounting rules and transparency regulations cause businesses to hire book-keeping specialists they wouldn't ordinarily do, while rules against predatory pricing change the way businesses charge for goods and services and change the way they seek out legal services. All of these regulations influence the way Americans spend their money; with these rules in place, money is spent in a different way than if the regulations didn't exist.

When you interfere with the way money is spent, you are interfering in the very heart of capitalism.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 23

RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:57:50 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with inherent superiority. The concept of American Exceptionalism deals with how America is different, not how America is better.

Uh, do you by chance see the contradiction in your post?

Let me help:

World English Dictionary exceptionalism (ɪkˈsɛpʃən ə lɪzəm)

— n
an attitude to other countries, cultures, etc based on the idea of being quite distinct from, and often superior to, them in vital ways

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 4:58:33 PM

Icarys

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quote:

Is the United States inherently superior to every other country on Earth?

Is a child born in Tulsa, Oklahoma to parents who are American citizens inherently superior to, say, a child born in Manila, Republic of the Philippines, to parents who are citizens of the Republic of the Philippines?

Is the United States federal government inherently superior to, say, the national government of Australia?

Your comments?

Fuck no we aren't.

That kind of shit thinking is what has us fucked up in the first place.We're arrogant to think we are better than another country? Better off maybe but not better.

That's why we're spreading our ideas all across the world.. We think we have the one true way and America buys into it with their voting.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 5:11:01 PM

BanthaSamantha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with inherent superiority. The concept of American Exceptionalism deals with how America is different, not how America is better.

Uh, do you by chance see the contradiction in your post?

Let me help:

World English Dictionary exceptionalism (ɪkˈsɛpʃən ə lɪzəm) — n
an attitude to other countries, cultures, etc based on the idea of being quite distinct from, and often superior to, them in vital ways

I would advise you to remember that dictionary entries are very rough condensations of concepts, designed to fit in a single line. When you try to condense a subject that books and books have been written on, you risk losing nuance, clarity, and even accuracy.

Exceptionalism as a concept refers to how something is different or unique. Ideas of superority stem from these differenes, but are not implied by them. There are two steps in the cognitive process: determining that something is exceptional, and determining that those exceptions make it superior.

For instance: The term most commonly referred to the fact that America was born out of revolution (and didn't deal with feudalism), and did not last through an age of being ruled over by royalty and/or the Church. Because America had a different heritage than Europe, it was not prone to the same political, economic, and social consequences of Europe. Yes, some people think that makes America better, but that is a distinct cognitive leap.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 6:05:52 PM

willbeurdaddy

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In common usage exceptional means more than just different, there is an implication of superiority/above average. However, in the case of "American Exceptionalism" the dictionary definition doesnt work. It is a term attributed to Stalin, and it specifically meant "different" not better. He denied American Exceptionalism made it immune to Marxist economic theory.

But modern usage does emphasize the "better" over the "different". So careful definitions are needed in a discussion of American Exceptionalism. I took the OP to mean "better" since superiority was the context of the entire post.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/19/2011 6:07:30 PM >

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 6:10:29 PM

BanthaSamantha

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Yeah, it is kinda like how "their" is slowly becoming an acceptable alternative to saying "his or her." Langauge can be mutable.

< Message edited by BanthaSamantha -- 11/19/2011 6:11:31 PM >

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 8:18:51 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Well Butch, since mankind started out in one tiny spot in Africa, that blows your theory out of the water

Not at all... there have been great migrations all through history. These migrations have always resulted in vibrant new civilizations. Over time however the genes get diluted with people satisfied with what they have...They are no longer adventuress....willing to take chances to better their lot in life. But there are always the brave, or perhaps reckless as well who want more. For many years America has been their land of choice for opportunity.

Butch

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 8:21:11 PM

FirstQuaker

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I suppose we will be hearing about the "exceptionalism" of China and Brazil this century, from pundits located in those countries..

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 8:35:51 PM

cloudboy

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The problem with the American Exceptionalism, myth or truth, is that it underlies terrible foreign policy decisions and actions. Since the Marshall plan, the US has probably done more harm that good outside of our own borders.

On the domestic front -- I think the US has fallen far short of its potential.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 31

RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 9:00:41 PM

LafayetteLady

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Not surprsingly, several have gone off on their own little tangents, but in trying to stick to the OP...

I don't believe that America is "exceptional" or superior to the rest of the world. I think in years past, we may have been superior to many other countries where opportunities didn't exist. There are places that still exist like that and yes, we are superior to them, but so are other countries.

But I admit that I look at posts such as tj's and wonder why the hell she is here. She doesn't like the USA, isn't a US citizen, never plans to be because by not being she keeps more money in her pocket (much like Puerto Rico, sadly). In my opinion, if you aren't a citizen, but are choosing to live here and work here, you don't have the *right* to complain. You have the right to go back where you came from. I don't mean that in a mean, nasty way, and I actually think tj is ok, but really, she isn't a citizen so if you don't like it here, leave. Earning money as a non-citizen provides tax breaks, so there is a lack of contribution, but not a lack of receipt of services.

What I DO know is that there are certainly more than a small percentage of people who still have a life goal of immigrating to this country. So in that respect, it would appear that there are other people in other countries who feel that America is exceptional in the sense that they would have exceptional opportunities they can't get where they are now.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 9:03:07 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

American Exceptionalism has nothing to do with inherent superiority. The concept of American Exceptionalism deals with how America is different, not how America is better.

Agreed.

Surprisingly.

FD likes to take the worst possible interpretation of anything that he disagrees with.

Firm

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 9:16:50 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes… I feel on average a US citizen is superior to a small degree for one reason...genes. This nation is made up of mostly immigrants.

If there is a lasting behavior effect in the American gene pool due to immigration patterns, the most prominent one would be the obesity rates in the US.
People with a higher than normal capability for fat storage where more likely to make it through lean times than people who didn't store fat well.

Probably the reason for the obesity is a Japanese discovered food additive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

BTW, are you implying that Australians have a genetic tendency to be criminals, seeing that they have a higher than average percentage of criminal ancestors, or do you feel that America would be the only country in the world that gets it's supposed tendencies due to immigration patterns?
What about South America, whose ancestry is also heavily influence by European settlers?

Butch is talking about hybrid vigor.

American Exceptionalism is more about the factors of our culture which has allowed more individuals to express themselves successfully than just about any other culture in history. While there are other cultures that certain "allow" individualism, the US (and to a lesser extent, the Anglo-sphere) tends to do so more than any other culture.

An example is the US military. In most militaries, soldiers are peons, who the leaders simply order and expect obedience. In the US military, the soldiers want to know "why", and you'd damn well better tell them and get them to support it. As a result, they often have a better understanding of what needs to be accomplished, and why. They then use more individual initiative then just about any other soldiers in any other army to accomplish it.

Other militaries that have similar soldier outlook are the Aussie, the Brits and Israel. Which is one of the reasons that their militaries are so effective, man per man.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 11/19/2011 9:21:49 PM >

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 9:31:19 PM

SternSkipper

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thanks tj... And I wasn't sure whether you were blowing it off or even if it was a security issue perhaps... but your spin on stuff has intrigued me. Not ever really in a bad way...just sensed there was some almost expat flavor to it.
Also, I can respect most of how you feel, since the list includes a number of things I would agree need changing.

What I meant before is that beyond all the really tangible aspects you can ascribe to American society. There is something about the culture that seems to inspire people to dream big. Whether it's about the future, or if it's about social change. Like this OWS movement. I know it got inspired out of Arab Spring. But if one breaks down the logistic/strategic systems of both, you'll start to see a divergence where all these differences that are so rapidly evolving, it's actually kind of hard to discuss in an organized fashion, a lot are more centered around how you make it grow. Like right now, there's a whole discussion on how to move to the next phases.
But it's not limited to that. We're going to start to see innovation in private space travel in starting in the coming year, most of which will be happening first here in the US... all cause a bunch of guys and gals my age grew up admiring and lusting after the "dream" of being an astronaut. When they realized it was a limited field. It didn't stop them. The dreamed, continued on the path and created their own field.
And I know we're not the only place in the world this kind of thing has happened. But it's not as frequent and broad based a thing anywhere else I have been.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 9:56:50 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Not surprsingly, several have gone off on their own little tangents, but in trying to stick to the OP...

I don't believe that America is "exceptional" or superior to the rest of the world. I think in years past, we may have been superior to many other countries where opportunities didn't exist. There are places that still exist like that and yes, we are superior to them, but so are other countries.

But I admit that I look at posts such as tj's and wonder why the hell she is here. She doesn't like the USA, isn't a US citizen, never plans to be because by not being she keeps more money in her pocket (much like Puerto Rico, sadly). In my opinion, if you aren't a citizen, but are choosing to live here and work here, you don't have the *right* to complain. You have the right to go back where you came from. I don't mean that in a mean, nasty way, and I actually think tj is ok, but really, she isn't a citizen so if you don't like it here, leave. Earning money as a non-citizen provides tax breaks, so there is a lack of contribution, but not a lack of receipt of services.

What I DO know is that there are certainly more than a small percentage of people who still have a life goal of immigrating to this country. So in that respect, it would appear that there are other people in other countries who feel that America is exceptional in the sense that they would have exceptional opportunities they can't get where they are now.

I was asked a question and i answered it. Just to clarify, for the most part, its not the USA that I dont like, its the US government that i dont like. Most of the points i made are American citizens own complaints about the US govt as well, btw.. I am not complaining per se, complaining does no good.. i dont see discussing issues as complaining as i have choices which i am not afraid to make.. I know that I can not change the things that i dont like. Americans are the ones with the tough choices, when you think about it..

A major difference is that i dont have any family holding me here, unlike most other US posters. I have said that as it stands, leaving is a very real possibility and likely. I have read post on other forums and the posts i have read from other immigrants was that if they didnt have family here now they would leave and go back to their home country, they feel stuck here.. So, its not just me.. And of course there are some Americans that leave the US also and even give up their American citizenship..

Btw, while i knew there were less freedoms, more govt regulation, corruption, etc in the US, only by actually living here does one find out just how much worse than i realized. I think that the economic debacle has made that worse and of course 9/11 did that in huge and various ways..

While i am here, of course i pay the same taxes as an equivalent US citizen. The major difference is that once i leave, the US can not touch any income I would earn elsewhere in the world and i would not be required to file a US tax return every year, which is what US citizens are legally required to do no matter where in the world they reside..

I think most of those people that want to immigrate to the US want to for financial reasons, meaning they think they can make money here that they couldnt in their home country... But how many of those potential immigrants does the US actually want here? The US doesnt want poor, uneducated immigrants, what percentage of all those potential immigrants are well off/wealthy and educated?

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 10:07:11 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Btw, while i knew there were less freedoms, more govt regulation, corruption, etc in the US, only by actually living here does one find out just how much worse than i realized. I think that the economic debacle has made that worse and of course 9/11 did that in huge and various ways..

It's just California.

Firm

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 10:25:05 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

I was asked a question and i answered it. Just to clarify, for the most part, its not the USA that I dont like, its the US government that i dont like. Most of the points i made are American citizens own complaints about the US govt as well, btw.. I am not complaining per se, complaining does no good.. i dont see discussing issues as complaining as i have choices which i am not afraid to make.. I know that I can not change the things that i dont like. Americans are the ones with the tough choices, when you think about it..

I asked tj the question as a condition of responding to a question she had that was QUITE on topic. If the minor drift off course was anyone's fault, it was mine.

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 10:29:27 PM

Fightdirecto

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Two examples of American Exceptionalism from my own experience in the U.S. Army:

1) During my Army service in Viet-Nam (1970-1971), some American soldiers who spent most of their time in rear areas would often refer to South Vietnamese military as "gooks" and would, in the presence of South Vietnamese military and civilians, loudly express the opinion that all Vietnamese (because they were not as good as Americans) were cowardly and could not be trusted (i.e. "Make sure you have an American with a machinegun aimed at the backs of the South Vietnamese troops or they'll run away at the first opportunity", etc.). Even though approximately 1/3 of the South Vietnamese population was Roman Catholic, I often heard American soldiers say that if the South Vietnamese were "Christians" like American were, they would have been more patriotic and more anti-Communist. If in any engagement between American forces and Viet-Cong or even North Vietnamese regulars, the Americans lost, it was usually blamed on sub-human characteristics of non-Americans (i.e. "They only fought hard because they were all high on pot", etc.)

2) Later, during my Army service in Germany (1971-1974), I came across a group of American National Guard troops from Louisiana who were in Germany to participate in the annual REFORGER war games. They were stopped in a tiny German village and, when the German storekeepers refused to take American dollars, the American soldiers went on verbal rants ("What's wrong with these people? They're so stupid, they don't even speak English" was one of the comments I remember), loud enough that everyone in the village could hear.

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 11/19/2011 10:30:17 PM >

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RE: American Exceptionalism: Agree or disagree? - 11/19/2011 10:56:18 PM

tj444

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No, I wasnt blowing you off..

Yes, there is an expat flavor, I did leave Canada and a lot of other countries intrigue me, so I think more globally. I see possible opportunities in various countries.. I suppose part of it is having a need for adventure, the challenge, to strike out into the unknown..

SternSkipper, just been wondering, have you realized your American dream?

I really dont know what the future of the majority of Americans is.. What about the disenfranchised and those that had their American dreams dashed, especially after the housing crisis? I wonder what percentage of the population is disillusioned and beaten down for not making it.. the gulf between the poor and the well off seems to be widening more and more.. Imo, many people that are well off dont realize it and dont even want to know about it.. at least from my observation (in OC)..

Of course there are the doers, the Steve Jobs, and people that have the smarts and most importantly the will and drive to succeed, those people exist in other capitalist countries as well although there are many more in the US simply due to the huge population here..

You know.. imo, what OWS should be doing is make a list of these huge corps that pay little in tax and/or corrupted politicians, make a list and website of all their products (generic and private label too) and services, then find alternative companies and products that do pay and dont offshore. Create a website and a massive boycott of those companies by not buying their products. Hit the mega corps where it hurts them.. Create an app for iphone, android and blackberry and get people to do their bit. I am surprised that OWS didnt do that already actually, with all the media attention on the occupations, it would have been a great time to launch a boycott.. especially with the large percentage of the population that agrees with OWS.. jmo.. When i was younger, there was a boycott on Kraft Foods and even to this day.. I still buy other food companies over Kraft products..

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