Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

The stolen valor act


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> The stolen valor act Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 1:47:47 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/17/supreme-court-to-take-up-stolen-valor-act/

The Supremes are apparently going to take a look at the constitutionality of a law that makes it a criminal act to lie about receiving military honors. The challenge is going to be by a person elected to a Water Board, or some such office, and lying that he had received a medal of honor. Personally, I would rather be water boarded than serve on a Water Board, but anyway. He was prosecuted criminally, and while he admitted that he lied, he claims the law violates his right of free speech.

I kind of agree with him. Lying about your military record is contemptible, but really doesn't damage anyone. The other exceptions from free speech are all there because the action results in harm to someone else.

I am from a family where most of the men have served in the military, but I still feel this law is more of a danger than the activity it was supposed to prohibit. What do you think? If you respond please include whether or not you have served in the military.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 2:12:27 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
Bullshit. 

Right now, the only illegal lying occurs when under oath, or if someone is hurt by it (libel/slander, and the bar for that is huge).

If they're looking to make any lying illegal, that can start with campaign promises, and then go from there to lying on the floor of Congress (check out Joseph McCarthy to see how Congressional immunity can be abused).

Letting Congress pass laws determining what lying is okay under what circumstances is ridiculous.  Their ethics aren't up to it.




_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 2:33:22 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
What can be done about phonys who fake valor or heroism?

It`s an extreme form of cheating at solitaire,the creepy fake not getting real feedback.

But there are victims.

People who want to acknowledge and honor these special individuals.

It`s just so wrong on so many levels.But probably legal.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 3:01:33 PM   
BanthaSamantha


Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline
How about we make it a crime to like about being Jewish in order to get laid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-10717186

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 4:19:37 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

What can be done about phonys who fake valor or heroism?



It's bigger than just that.  If Congress is permitted the precedent to decide what lying is allowable and what isn't, I'd be frightened.  They are the epitome of great power without great responsibility.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 4:39:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
They already do, DS. As you pointed out, they can lie as much as they wish on the floors of Congress.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 5:04:29 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They already do, DS. As you pointed out, they can lie as much as they wish on the floors of Congress.


They themselves are permitted to lie, yes.  But they have not been permitted to sanction others' lies.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 5:08:57 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
They already do, DS. As you pointed out, they can lie as much as they wish on the floors of Congress.


Yes, but so can anyone else lie anywhere else without committing a crime, except under oath or in a contract of some kind.

pam


_____________________________

[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvDnbFOkYY [/link]

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 5:42:16 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
This is just a knee jerk response,but I get the feeling we do owe it to the actual heroes to protect what they earned at great risk.isn't it already illegal to falsely wear medals....why not codify lying about such ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 6:16:07 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Did you know that it is a crime to tell a lie to the federal government? Even if your lie is oral and not under oath? Even if you have received no warnings of any kind? Even if you are not trying to cheat the government out of money? Even if the government is not actually misled by your falsehood? Well it is.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the ever expanding federal bureaucracy. Though the falsehood must be "material" this requirement is met if the statement has the "natural tendency to influence or [is] capable of influencing, the decision of the decisionmaking body to which it is addressed." United States v. Gaudin , 515 U.S. 506, 510 (1995). (In other words, it is not necessary to show that your particular lie ever really influenced anyone.) Although you must know that your statement is false at the time you make it in order to be guilty of this crime, you do not have to know that lying to the government is a crime or even that the matter you are lying about is "within the jurisdiction" of a government agency. United States v. Yermian , 468 U.S. 63, 69 (1984). For example, if you lie to your employer on your time and attendance records and, unbeknownst to you, he submits your records, along with those of other employees, to the federal government pursuant to some regulatory duty, you could be criminally liable.

Even in our age of ever expanding federal power, the breadth of this statute (and the discretion it lodges in prosecutors) is awesome. Congress has regulated so many areas of our lives and federalized so many functions that the reach of Section 1001 is virtually boundless. This is what caused many federal courts to create an "exculpatory no" doctrine, holding that falsely answering "no" to an inquiry from a federal agent was, standing alone, not a crime under Section 1001. In 1998, however, the United States Supreme Court rejected this doctrine (as being inconsistent with legislative intent) in Brogan v. United States , 522 U.S. 398, 805 (1998). Thus, the only avenue for reform with respect to Section 1001 is in Congress, where politicians seldom get brownie points for narrowing the reach of federal criminal statutes.


http://library.findlaw.com/2004/May/11/147945.html

The article continues.

I would wonder if a man stating he has a medal of honor would be placed on a higher status for a job than one who did not if all things were equal.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/20/2011 6:17:44 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 6:46:12 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
Stuff like this makes me want to just move.

pam


_____________________________

[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvDnbFOkYY [/link]

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 6:48:28 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
Don`t be lie`n......

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:05:27 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Stuff like this makes me want to just move.

pam



Its a crime to lie and pretend to be a Dr, a nurse, a policeman. But these are things that can affect lives.

I believe it should be left alone, that it was a misdemeanor to impersonate someone with a medal. It never should have changed.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/20/2011 7:06:44 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:08:49 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
No, i was talking about the link you cited.  The hypothetical example about the nurse really pissed me off.

pam


< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 11/20/2011 7:09:38 PM >


_____________________________

[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvDnbFOkYY [/link]

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:11:41 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline
It's vile but should it be illegal?
It seems like the sort of thing where
the sentiment behind it was good and
honorable but the outcomes could be
terrible.
It makes me think of Joseph Ellis.
In addition to being a respected historian
and a successful writer whose won
all sorts of prizes he is a college professor.
The Boston Globe(I think) discovered he
was telling his students in class about his
experiences in the Viet Nam war. He
was never in the military and his exploits
were all made up.
I think a teacher lying to his students is
lousy and the breech of a almost sacred
trust.
He was not fired to my knowledge he was
never censored. His writing career goes
on and he is still taken seriously as a
historian.
Why would a man who is something of
a public figure lie so foolishly?
A psychological problem?
I've never served in the military but come
from a family with many members
who have. My stepdad is retired military.
My cousin is in Iraq and was in Bosnia
prior to that.
I also have a family member who lost his
eye and his arm in Viet Nam. His life
has been virtually destroyed by post
traumatic stress disorder.
So I find it loathsome that people would
use military service and heroism so
cynically and for personal gain.
But I can't say I agree with this law.




_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:15:44 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

No, i was talking about the link you cited.  The hypothetical example about the nurse really pissed me off.

pam



Not sure why. While the scenario is not likely, simply because there would be more than one nurse. it is plausible.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:18:43 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Not sure why...it is plausible.


That's why i'm pissed off.  For the nurse.  i think the law is wrong.

pam




_____________________________

[link] www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvDnbFOkYY [/link]

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:19:39 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

How about we make it a crime to like about being Jewish in order to get laid.


That works? Ummmm I mean Oye!


_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to BanthaSamantha)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:21:18 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Nurses as well as Physicians have a higher standard to keep.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The stolen valor act - 11/20/2011 7:27:26 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Bullshit.

Right now, the only illegal lying occurs when under oath, or if someone is hurt by it (libel/slander, and the bar for that is huge).

If they're looking to make any lying illegal, that can start with campaign promises, and then go from there to lying on the floor of Congress (check out Joseph McCarthy to see how Congressional immunity can be abused).

Letting Congress pass laws determining what lying is okay under what circumstances is ridiculous. Their ethics aren't up to it.


I agree... Personally, I wish the SC would rule Congress can't go near the concept of truth vs lies.

It was a deep hole in 06 when they first dug it. Is this the only guy who's been prosecuted under the law? Anybody know?





_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




Tinfoilers Swallow


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> The stolen valor act Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094