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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 6:40:09 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Newt actually has an excellent point here, though his example was poorly chosen (I'm getting this image of 5th graders being flung through the air by the floor buffer).

As our poverty maintenance system operates now, if a motivated kid in a family on welfare wants to go out and get some work, anything he earns is legally counted as household income, and deducted from the benefits. Instead of encouraging these youth to do the things it takes to break the cycle of poverty, we actively disincentivize work.

A work ethic isn't something they teach you about in a class, and then it magically ripens the first day of that first grown-up job. You build it by shoveling snow off the old ladies driveways, while your friends are building a snowman, delivering newspapers in the rain, and yes, just maybe by spending recess wiping down the tables in the cafeteria, and putting some money in your own pocket by doing so.




While I totally agree with this, they would have to go after union jobs to do that and I don't see that flying well.


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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 7:06:26 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Where are these kids supposed to be getting their pocket money from?
It is not as though they are allowed to have a lemonade stand anymore.






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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 7:21:06 AM   
Aylee


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Status: offline 		Ah yes. These poor kids should just stick with the black market drug-dealing jobs. What was I thinking?

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 8:46:07 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Ah yes. These poor kids should just stick with the black market drug-dealing jobs. What was I thinking?

International Business Times
quote:

However, this is Gingrich - a man who has previously shown he's unafraid to say children from poor backgrounds are somehow less deserving than their more privileged counterparts. In 1994, just before becoming the Republican Speaker of the House, Gingrich publicly supported a proposal by the GOP that aimed to reduce the number of welfare recipients by placing the children of welfare mothers - primarily, those with unconfirmed paternity and the children of women under age 18 born out of wedlock - in orphanages.

When he was called out about the insensitivity of such a proposal, Gingrich famously responded that liberals exaggerated the horrors of orphanages and the foster care system, advising them to rent the 1938 Mickey Rooney film "Boy's Town." Since, of course, a fictionalized account of a home for juvenile delinquents run by a kindly Spencer Tracy is apparently the closest Gingrich has ever been to an actual orphanage.

The GOP loves to accuse Democrats of inciting class warfare, but saying poor families should push their kids to get after-school jobs as early as elementary school instead of being a "burden" on the welfare system seems much more akin to class warfare than asking the wealthiest Americans to pay Clinton-era tax rates.





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"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 10:37:19 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		And why arent they allowed a lemonade stand anymore?

Why arent they delivering papers anymore?

Why arent they shoveling snow, mowing lawns, ect ect ect?

Could it be because the adults are now doing those jobs?

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 5:50:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And why arent they allowed a lemonade stand anymore?

Why arent they delivering papers anymore?

Why arent they shoveling snow, mowing lawns, ect ect ect?

Could it be because the adults are now doing those jobs?



Well, adult illegal immigrants...

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 5:57:36 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And why arent they allowed a lemonade stand anymore?

Why arent they delivering papers anymore?

Why arent they shoveling snow, mowing lawns, ect ect ect?

Could it be because the adults are now doing those jobs?



Well, adult illegal immigrants...

Not around here. It's adults with the lawn services and paper routes. The kicker is they're English speaking people who were born here.

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 6:18:46 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And why arent they allowed a lemonade stand anymore?
Why arent they delivering papers anymore?
Why arent they shoveling snow, mowing lawns, ect ect ect?
Could it be because the adults are now doing those jobs?

Well, adult illegal immigrants...

Not around here. It's adults with the lawn services and paper routes. The kicker is they're English speaking people who were born here.

The guy who delivers my newspaper used to work for Digital Equipment Corporation as a computer engineer. When Digital went under and his part of the company was bought out by Intel in 2002, he was "let go". Since he was 60 then, he couldn't get another computer engineering job because he was "too old". He's now in his 70's and lives off of Social Security and his newspaper route.


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 6:26:57 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Oh, Fight, you poor thing. Newt just gives you the horrors, doesn't he? I swear, it's worth having him out front for a minute in the horserace, just to watch the empty heads of the bleeding hearts, explode.

The concern he was referring to in 1994 was dealt with in the welfare reform by allowing children born into families that were already receiving aid to be denied additional cash assistance.

That's one of the nice things about the loonier ideas that come from Newt. He sees the problems, and understands that we need to find better ways to solve them, but when he throws out one suggestion to get people thinking and talking, he doesn't fall in love with it. Welfare reform went through on his watch, without the orphanages.


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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 6:27:34 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I can think of far better ways to provide incentives to welfare recipients to go to work




Please tell me what better way you know to incentivize work, than to allow people to put the money they make in their pockets. They should just naturally want to do it, as their role in the communal herd, maybe?


One way would be to make welfare-to-work resemble closer the SSI and Disability plans that incentivize the disabled to go to work.  Under social security guidelines, the disabled are protected from adversely being affected by going to work.  I was on SSI and when I started working, only half of what I made was considered income and that after the first $85 dollars per month was deducted.  So, my monthly salary of say $565 (not the real starting salary) minus $85 then divided by 2 left $240.  But guess what, under social security guidelines, my income could only be $215 a month to keep any social security and with the loss of all the SSI income my medicaid was closed as well.  I was lucky to be employed by an agency that offered very good medical coverage, but while I have coverage I really can't afford the co-payments to see a doctor on a regular basis, which necessitated me to go off the medication I had been on for years to control my bipolar disorder.  I've been thinking applying for medical assistance for workers with disabilities just so that I can feel stable for a change, though even carrying medicaid as a secondary insurance will affect my access to preferred doctors.

And people on Disability have it even better.  I'm not sure of all of the guidelines, but I know a guy who was disability and SSI and now heads a homeless program for the local mental health association.  He still receives around $300 a month in disability (though no SSI) on top of his pay.  I know other people who purposefully work part time to "game" the system keep part of their social security payments and not worry about having a relapse making them unable to work again.  Its something I'm not worried about right now because though I don't receive SSI, I was told my file will remain open for at least 5 years and I've been on the job for a little over 3.

In contrast, people on welfare get jobs making minimum wage or slightly higher and end up losing all the benefits of welfare.  One of my clients, a 23 yr. old welfare recipient who is in the process of appealing a social security decision recently worked a total 2 days making $9 an hour.  He lost welfare for 1 1/2 months.  Welfare is nothing in PA; a single person gets only $205 a month in cash, about $200 in SNAP and medicaid.  But how does $9 an hour for 16 hours justify taking all of that away.  He is now behind in his rent and doesn't know how he come up with another $81.50 to cover it.  And to top it off, his treatment which I provide costs medicaid about $30 an hour.  If the county office of mental health doesn't cover that, he will be billed for the total of 6 hours a week for 6 weeks I had worked with him.  And all because he worked for 16 hours.
(Though, to be honest, the agency will probably eat the cost of his treatment after 6 months).



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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 7:36:48 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		That's not a better suggestion, Erie. That's just agreeing with what I said to begin with. Let people put some money in their pockets, through the fruit of their own labor. Were you just snarking in response to my avatar then, without reading a damn word I wrote?

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 8:40:33 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
The guy who delivers my newspaper used to work for Digital Equipment Corporation as a computer engineer. When Digital went under and his part of the company was bought out by Intel in 2002, he was "let go". Since he was 60 then, he couldn't get another computer engineering job because he was "too old". He's now in his 70's and lives off of Social Security and his newspaper route.




So, your buddy, who was 60, in a high skill position, with a high end tech company, after what I can only assume was a long career as computers stormed the world, wound up with no savings or financial investments that grew with the industry? Either your paperboy is feeding you a sob story, and you are dumb enough to buy it ad share the sob on the internet, or you have some dumbass friends. What was it? Bad marriages and child support, or a cocaine issue in the 70's and 80's?

I've run the numbers. Barring a lucky strike by a lotto ticket or a drunk movie star's car who doesn't want the bad press, I get to keep working until I die. If you are the sucker, I can't fault the dude for working it a bit, for the Christmas tip. You do tip your paperboy at Christmas, don't you?

Btw, when I was delivering papers afterschool in 5th grade (late 70's), that was the evening paper. The early morning routes were adults back then too.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 9:13:32 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And why arent they allowed a lemonade stand anymore?

Why arent they delivering papers anymore?

Why arent they shoveling snow, mowing lawns, ect ect ect?

Could it be because the adults are now doing those jobs?



Well, adult illegal immigrants...


lol Rich, in some areas yes, in some no.

quote:

Btw, when I was delivering papers afterschool in 5th grade (late 70's), that was the evening paper. The early morning routes were adults back then too


I had an afternoon route on a military base when i was in the 4th grade. My parents helped out on sundays.

Those jobs are now taken by adults... along with the lemonade stands (think corporate adults). Unless he is advocating firing adults so kids can have jobs, what jobs are available to kids anymore?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 10:32:17 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		As long as there are old ladies, Tazzy, there will be chores to be found. The job market is going to change and evolve. I had to go see the family up north over the weekend, and one of the nieces has turned a project she helped her grandmother with, into an actual business. She's recently pulled down her online ads, because she has all the work her dad will let her take on.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/22/2011 10:41:21 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

When he was called out about the insensitivity of such a proposal, Gingrich famously responded that liberals exaggerated the horrors of orphanages and the foster care system, advising them to rent the 1938 Mickey Rooney film "Boy's Town." Since, of course, a fictionalized account of a home for juvenile delinquents run by a kindly Spencer Tracy is apparently the closest Gingrich has ever been to an actual orphanage.






I did just feel a passing need to highlight Fight first mocking Newt, for going to fiction to make a point, and then going to fiction himself, to make his own. LOL

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/23/2011 12:18:01 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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Status: offline 		The Tories are turning my country into a fucking Dickensian Victorian Theme Park for the 1% ratfuckers.

Shitsniffer Grinch wants full employment for 8 YOs, who displace adults, who then get thrown into debtors prisons because they missed a payment on the sofa!

"And in Kansas City, one man ended up in jail after missing only a furniture payment, KCTV5 reports. James Davis purchased a mattress, bed and computer, but soon lost his job to the recession, making it difficult for him to payoff the purchases. He was repeatedly pulled into court so that collectors could find ways for him to make the payments, but after missing one hearing a warrant was issued for his arrest. Davis is suing in federal court for the way he was treated."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/22/debtors-prison-legal-in-more-than-one-third-of-us-states_n_1107524.html

"'Are there no prisons?"

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
'And the Union workhouses­.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?­'

'Both very busy, sir.'

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'

'Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,­' returned the gentleman, 'a few of us are endeavouri­ng to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'

'Nothing!' Scrooge replied.

'You wish to be anonymous?­'

'I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. 'Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishm­ents I have mentioned-­they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.'

'Many can't go there; and many would rather die.'

'If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, 'they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population­."

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/23/2011 4:37:51 PM   
Masta808


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Status: offline 		Damn straight. These kids need to be working. Its their own damn fault that they are poor and sponging of the rest of society. I say put them to work, hell chain them to factories so they can actually make some them of themselves. The 1950s had it RIGHT. Children dont need a child they need to be beaten, whipped, and forced to have a miserable life so they can start paying their dues to society. I say as soon as they are born give them a sewing machine so they can start making clothes. They dont get feed until they finish their day's quote which will be left entirely up people in charge. Dont give me that Crap about unreasonable quotas. LIFE ISNT FAIR its time they start learning that, sit down, shut up and stop complaining.

What will making America great again is forcing poor children from having a children from having a childhood. Do you really want to live in a society that actually cares about their children and want them to have a childhood? I dont and neither does Newt Gingrich.

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/23/2011 7:21:48 PM   
Termyn8or


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Kids should work, kids shouldn't work, you dizzy yet ? Working develops a good work ethic, especially when people are paid for results rather than time. What a few people wouldn't like is that youngsters may work the pants off the elders. I remember having a job at which my pay per hour wasn't all that high, but the deal was full of incentive. I still have an old pay invoice, before taxes I made $371 in 12 hours, and this was in the 1980s or maybe early 1990s. One week I put in 20 hours and made $775. I was much younger then, to say the least. So you have to be careful when you offer employees piecework rates or incentives based on production. Bonuses can cost you most of the windfall you should make when things go well, but you still have to pay the base when things go wrong. Back then at least there was a profit margin, but the owners used to joke around saying I made more per hour than they did. They said they were not joking. I should've kept that jiob.

But this all brings in the subject of public sector jobs. In the case of building maintenance, what would these janitors be making in the private sector ? There are two different issues here. Some can basically sweep the floors, others are skilled electricians, plumbers, carpenters ar even masons.

At LHS I actually worked at the highschool I attended. A couple of periods a day I worked in the AV center which maintained all the projectors, TVs, audio equipment etc. that was used in the classrooms. We also operated most of it, at least projectors. We also spliced films when they broke, fixed the problem that made them break, did some tape duplicating and stuff like that and got a paycheck. There were also credits involved. All I cared about was the money. Later I was in business for myself, and then found a job that made that worth quitting.

Yes, I was a victim of that terrible child labor.

But then I liked it so much I dropped out and went to work almost right away. I needed gas money :-) But the point is I don't see any reason we shouldn't have the students in public schools do something. I don't know about paying them, you all decide on that. It wasn't much money back then, but as I made more later it was easy to learn to spend. Very easy.

There is then the question of whether we want to bait that particular trap when they're that young.........

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/23/2011 7:30:46 PM >

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/23/2011 8:42:14 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Yes, I was a victim of that terrible child labor.


You werent a victim of the lack of child labor laws...

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Fire the janitors, hire kids to clean schools - 11/23/2011 8:47:43 PM   
Sanity


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Well before I turned sixteen I wanted to work for extra pocket money, and so I did. I had to lie about my age to do it, but you could get away with it back then if you looked  the part and you could handle the job. I really kicked ass and made a lot of money for someone my age, learned a lot about the real world that way too - more than I ever did in school.

Todays kids have to suffer in silence though, because the government is here to help.




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