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RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 2:23:36 PM

YSG

Posts: 1001
Joined: 8/6/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Out of pocket, even a dollar, for supplies a teacher requires to teach a classroom of students is far too much in my opinion. They have a hard job dealing with kids that dont listen, parents that dont discipline and a school board that is crippling their effectiveness. They now have to be confidant, teacher, and police. They have to look for signs of learning disabilities, abuse, neglect and crimes.

And as a society, we think they make too much?

Well, I think the general consensus is that teachers don't make enough. I believe I'm in the minority.

I don't see any problem with out-of-pocket expenses that are reimbursed. Why is that an issue? The outlay of expenses up front could be a problem, but a teacher would accept the job knowing this, I would hope.

I've never seen a teacher who had to buy supplies. Either parents donated them or they did a bake sale/car wash.

The market is a wonderful thing. It (absent intereference) ensures that no one, even teachers, are "overpaid". Since the job is unionized, which is the same as artficially decreasing supply, it is ensured that they are overpaid compared to what the market would otherwise pay them.

If someone wants to argue that the job is UNDERVALUED due to its importance that is a different discussion. I think the value of teachers is far greater than the market puts on the current supply of teachers. Want pay commensurate with the value of the job? Get teachers who can rise to that level.

Incorrect. We've left the banking industry alone for years, and the execs get huge bonuses just for fucking up the company and the economy. As for "rising to that level", its never gonna happen with all the restrictons and standardized testing the government is shoving down their throats.

However, you are correct that teachers are undervalued, which ends up with them being underpaid. You know why the top talent doesnt usually go into teaching? Because the money sucks.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 41

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 2:33:47 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Out of pocket, even a dollar, for supplies a teacher requires to teach a classroom of students is far too much in my opinion. They have a hard job dealing with kids that dont listen, parents that dont discipline and a school board that is crippling their effectiveness. They now have to be confidant, teacher, and police. They have to look for signs of learning disabilities, abuse, neglect and crimes.

And as a society, we think they make too much?

Well, I think the general consensus is that teachers don't make enough. I believe I'm in the minority.

I don't see any problem with out-of-pocket expenses that are reimbursed. Why is that an issue? The outlay of expenses up front could be a problem, but a teacher would accept the job knowing this, I would hope.

I've never seen a teacher who had to buy supplies. Either parents donated them or they did a bake sale/car wash.

The market is a wonderful thing. It (absent intereference) ensures that no one, even teachers, are "overpaid". Since the job is unionized, which is the same as artficially decreasing supply, it is ensured that they are overpaid compared to what the market would otherwise pay them.

If someone wants to argue that the job is UNDERVALUED due to its importance that is a different discussion. I think the value of teachers is far greater than the market puts on the current supply of teachers. Want pay commensurate with the value of the job? Get teachers who can rise to that level.

Incorrect. We've left the banking industry alone for years, and the execs get huge bonuses just for fucking up the company and the economy. As for "rising to that level", its never gonna happen with all the restrictons and standardized testing the government is shoving down their throats.

However, you are correct that teachers are undervalued, which ends up with them being underpaid. You know why the top talent doesnt usually go into teaching? Because the money sucks.

funny thing about the markets. You, me, Obama and no one else except the shareholders and boards of the banks have the right to a fucking opinion about what they are paid. And they wouldn't have fucked up anything without Congress pushing them.

"Restrictions and standardized testing"....ie they dont want their performance to be judged. Too fucking bad.

The money will come with the value.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 11/22/2011 2:34:10 PM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to YSG)

Post #: 42

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 2:52:07 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: RakeAndCo

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Out of pocket, even a dollar, for supplies a teacher requires to teach a classroom of students is far too much in my opinion.
Oh the horror, teachers would have to learn how to read instructions on tax forms, keep records, and fill the tax forms out just like everyone else that has expenses non-reimbursed by the employer!

And what if the standard deduction is more than what they would receive if they itemize?

Then that money is not reimbursed.

Also remember that, as an unreimbursed employee expense, it is a miscelaneous itemized deduction. Such means that only deductions over 2% of your adjusted gross income actually get deducted.

Also remember, the first $500 of unreimbursed teaching expenses are above-the-line deductions, which means you get them in addition to your standard deduction.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 43

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 2:58:04 PM

YSG

Posts: 1001
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

funny thing about the markets. You, me, Obama and no one else except the shareholders and boards of the banks have the right to a fucking opinion about what they are paid. And they wouldn't have fucked up anything without Congress pushing them.

"Restrictions and standardized testing"....ie they dont want their performance to be judged. Too fucking bad.

The money will come with the value.

Yeah, I do have a right to say something, especially considering they're being propped up with MY tax money. How the hell did Congress push them? The truth is, they got their little puppets in Congress to deregulate them, and went to shady buisness practices. The thing a person with money wants is... more money. So what did they do? Loaned out money beyond what they knew people would be able to pay. They figured they could drain a person for as much as possible, kick them out, and then resell the homes and make even more profit. Problem is, this model is unsustainable. This caused tremors in the stock market, which caused people to lose their jobs, which ment that even more people couldent pay the mortgages. Simply put, they lent out more money than they knew could be paid back, which caused Big Bear to go under, and the rest of the Wall St. crooks went back to their lapdogs in Congress and the White House for a bailout. Meanwhile, they pay little taxes in personal income (I have a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet), and almost nothing in buisness taxes.

As for standardized testing, there is too much emphasis on it. No Child Left Behind basically forces a teacher to drill the students with the information they need, and gives them no time to show any practical applications for it. Lets also not forget the fact that this lumps all students together, rather than recognizing that each student learns at their own pace, according to their natural abilities. This is why most schools have, or at least used to have, a number of different classes in the same subject. Lets say, for example, a kid's not good at chemistry, but they kick ass in physics. Who's to say either one of those is the more important science? Plus, it expects all students to be able to read and write on "grade level" by the year 2014. The fallacy in that is, like the right-wing crack babies that inhabit this board, some kids are just plain dumb.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 44

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 3:01:48 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

funny thing about the markets. You, me, Obama and no one else except the shareholders and boards of the banks have the right to a fucking opinion about what they are paid. And they wouldn't have fucked up anything without Congress pushing them.

"Restrictions and standardized testing"....ie they dont want their performance to be judged. Too fucking bad.

The money will come with the value.

Yeah, I do have a right to say something, especially considering they're being propped up with MY tax money. How the hell did Congress push them? The truth is, they got their little puppets in Congress to deregulate them, and went to shady buisness practices. The thing a person with money wants is... more money. So what did they do? Loaned out money beyond what they knew people would be able to pay. They figured they could drain a person for as much as possible, kick them out, and then resell the homes and make even more profit. Problem is, this model is unsustainable. This caused tremors in the stock market, which caused people to lose their jobs, which ment that even more people couldent pay the mortgages. Simply put, they lent out more money than they knew could be paid back, which caused Big Bear to go under, and the rest of the Wall St. crooks went back to their lapdogs in Congress and the White House for a bailout. Meanwhile, they pay little taxes in personal income (I have a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet), and almost nothing in buisness taxes.

Your tax money didnt prop up shit. Everything they were loaned was repaid with interest. Most of them didnt even want the fucking money they were blackmailed into taking it.

If you dont know how they were pushed into it then either you either need to learn about what caused the housing bubble or youre another pathetic liberal who wants to deny reality.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to YSG)

Post #: 45

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 3:07:51 PM

YSG

Posts: 1001
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

funny thing about the markets. You, me, Obama and no one else except the shareholders and boards of the banks have the right to a fucking opinion about what they are paid. And they wouldn't have fucked up anything without Congress pushing them.

"Restrictions and standardized testing"....ie they dont want their performance to be judged. Too fucking bad.

The money will come with the value.

Yeah, I do have a right to say something, especially considering they're being propped up with MY tax money. How the hell did Congress push them? The truth is, they got their little puppets in Congress to deregulate them, and went to shady buisness practices. The thing a person with money wants is... more money. So what did they do? Loaned out money beyond what they knew people would be able to pay. They figured they could drain a person for as much as possible, kick them out, and then resell the homes and make even more profit. Problem is, this model is unsustainable. This caused tremors in the stock market, which caused people to lose their jobs, which ment that even more people couldent pay the mortgages. Simply put, they lent out more money than they knew could be paid back, which caused Big Bear to go under, and the rest of the Wall St. crooks went back to their lapdogs in Congress and the White House for a bailout. Meanwhile, they pay little taxes in personal income (I have a higher tax rate than Warren Buffet), and almost nothing in buisness taxes.

Your tax money didnt prop up shit. Everything they were loaned was repaid with interest. Most of them didnt even want the fucking money they were blackmailed into taking it.

If you dont know how they were pushed into it then either you either need to learn about what caused the housing bubble or youre another pathetic liberal who wants to deny reality.

Yet another dipshit conservative who has no idea what he's talking about. If you DO, come on, educate me.

Oh, and for the record: I'm not a "Liberal". Im a Marxist, thank you very much.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 46

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 4:40:16 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

Regarding teachers working 6.5 hour days with a planning period.

I was a science teacher for several years.
You are in school for 6.5 hours. Typically, when I got home, there was another 2-3 hours of grading papers. I'm not at school but I'm still working. The planning period. I was generally working during that too. Lunch breaks? I was typically tutoring one or more kids to help then catch up.

OOPS, did I menion I was a wrestling and football coach? There's another 15-20 hours/week. Coaches get an additional stipend tho. When I was teaching, it was a whole $3000/year. I figured it at about $4/hour.

Add to that clueless administrators and psycho parents and people wonder why I left for a much higher paying job.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to YSG)

Post #: 47

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/22/2011 6:55:19 PM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline

quote:

all students to be able to read and write on "grade level" by the year 2014.

I'm college educated and think I read at about the 11 grade level. That doesn't make me dumb, it just means I usually have to read something 2-3 times before I "get it".

(in reply to YSG)

Post #: 48

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 4:54:00 AM

YSG

Posts: 1001
Joined: 8/6/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

quote:

all students to be able to read and write on "grade level" by the year 2014.

I'm college educated and think I read at about the 11 grade level. That doesn't make me dumb, it just means I usually have to read something 2-3 times before I "get it".

Really? Well, you speak like someone who never graduated high school, so I'm not really surprised you can't read all that well. Again, this is the fallacy of NCLB, it doesnt account for kids who dont get it.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to erieangel)

Post #: 49

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 5:11:23 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Represented by one of the most powerful unions in the country and underpaid? Bullshit.

Add in their first class benefits and their average total comp is at least $75,000 a year and they have the best job security in the country. Calculating the hourly wage on a "per student per hour" basis is a nice little game but irrelevant. They arent doing piece work and they arent paid on an hourly basis. And in a piece that is supposedly supportive of them calling them babysitters is pretty fucking demeaning.

Pay for performance and the one's who are worth it will get paid more, and the vast majority who are slackers will get paid what they are worth....McDonald's wages, because that's where they would be working.

Just how you would demonstrate to us how the 'teachers union' is one of the most powerful in the country when almost none...have any real power at all. In the case of teachers, they cannot strike, they cannot call a sick-out or a day or more off as demonstration. Just what does and what can a 'teachers union' do to affect those union rights ?

As for firing, they have as much job insecurity or more in their jobs as the rest of us. Just ask the 1000's that have been fired since 2008. Almost all union employment has been reduced to trying to save as may employees, hours, benefits and income as they can...they being reduced almost steadily since 1980.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 50

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 5:13:05 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

They are closing 7 schools in the Pittsburgh system... very few teachers have any kind of job security here.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 51

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 7:26:51 AM

servantforuse

Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline

9 or 10 months a year ? Not really. There are 180 school days here in Wisconsin. That is 6 months at school and 6 months not at school.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 52

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 7:30:02 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

9 or 10 months a year ? Not really. There are 180 school days here in Wisconsin. That is 6 months at school and 6 months not at school.

Last time I looked, 180 days is 36 work weeks or 9 months. Add a coupla weeks of 'inservice' days in there too.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to servantforuse)

Post #: 53

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 7:42:46 AM

Fightdirecto

Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline

Regarding the question of reimbursement:

If a public school teacher is being paid $4,000 a month (which works out to $50,000 a year) and is required to purchase $400.00 of school supplies for her students (paper, pencils, etc.) in September and finally gets reimbursed part or all of that $400.00 in June of the next calendar year - can they also tell the bank that holds the mortgage on their home that they'll just have to wait 9 months to get their mortgage payment? Or their landlord if they rent? Or can they also tell their child that they will just have to wait 9 months until they can eat next?

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
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(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 54

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 7:43:15 AM

KeriB

Posts: 315
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Represented by one of the most powerful unions in the country and underpaid? Bullshit.

Add in their first class benefits and their average total comp is at least $75,000 a year and they have the best job security in the country. Calculating the hourly wage on a "per student per hour" basis is a nice little game but irrelevant. They arent doing piece work and they arent paid on an hourly basis. And in a piece that is supposedly supportive of them calling them babysitters is pretty fucking demeaning.

Pay for performance and the one's who are worth it will get paid more, and the vast majority who are slackers will get paid what they are worth....McDonald's wages, because that's where they would be working.

What first class benefits? I don't get special benefits or anything different than any other private sector worker. I still pay taxes, insurance, medicare, etc. Hell I pay taxes which means I'm paying myself to work, dipshit.

_____________________________

I fear neither death nor pain. A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire. ~ Eowyn

I've seen honest faces, they usually come attached to liars.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 55

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 7:46:01 AM

KeriB

Posts: 315
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Many of the teachers I know pay for classroom supplies out of their own pockets. I don't know any other profession where the professional is expected to buy work supplies themselves, and not get reimbursed.

They're not expected to, and they do get reimbursed. If they're purchasing items that aren't authorized, that's their decision. And no, teachers aren't the only ones that do that. I have several items in my office that I've bought at my own expense that help me do my job better. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I am a teacher and yes we are expected to buy them with our own money and no we don't get reimbursed for them. We spend hours planning during the summer for the next school year. We attended conferences that we pay for out of our own pocket to better ourselves so that we can help our students.

As for the 50,000 salary plus benefits that keeps getting brought up, this is generally in most school districts near the top amount of what you might get paid if you have a PhD and have been with the same district for 10 years or more. This is not the starting salary that teachers get.

quote:

I am in a position to know. Teachers are not expected to buy classroom supplies out of pocket, and they are reimbursed when they do...as long as it is authorized.

Exactly what puts you in a position to "know"? Are you a teacher? Do you work in the education field?

< Message edited by KeriB -- 11/23/2011 7:56:59 AM >

_____________________________

I fear neither death nor pain. A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire. ~ Eowyn

I've seen honest faces, they usually come attached to liars.

(in reply to Kaliko)

Post #: 56

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 9:08:14 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

When I taught, I didn't get reimbursed for supplies I bought, nor did I even get reimbursed for travel or equipment expenses related to coaching. I got a nice jacket once when we won the region and that was it. My room was paid for if we were at an out of town meet or tournament but meals, gas, etc was on me.

At the time, there was not even tuition reimbursement for required continuing education.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to KeriB)

Post #: 57

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 9:40:19 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Are You Sick Of ‘Highly Paid’ Teachers?

You know what I'm sick of? I'm sick of LOSING bright young teachers who are coming in to the Massachusetts public school system, setting the land scape on fire with new skills, a VIBRANT attitude, and a genuine love for the kids they are teaching, only to see them being cut the fuck out of the budget by tight fisted neo-cons before they can achieve tenure.
   And they'll blame of course, the unions. Frankly, if those unions didn't exist, I think young people coming out of college would be all done with the teaching profession.
   My kids receive a fine education and the services, though cut paper thin by the assholes in this town who've gotten sticker shock AFTER they moved out by the ocean (hint to NE Coastal Neo-Cons Roxbury is way cheaper and we'd love to see you move there). these clowns, who don't get that you have to pay things forward and that the very same mechanisms that have made them wealthy have to some relative degree raised cost, have frankly worn out their welcome with me.
   I think when they PUSStulate their little diaper act, we should simply reply with the dictum that their beloved former vice president added to the Senate dialogue, taking it down a few notches forever... "Why don't you go fuck yourself?". It's short, it's sweet and it gets the point across.


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Post #: 58

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 9:46:17 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

I am a teacher and yes we are expected to buy them with our own money and no we don't get reimbursed for them. We spend hours planning during the summer for the next school year. We attended conferences that we pay for out of our own pocket to better ourselves so that we can help our students.

As for the 50,000 salary plus benefits that keeps getting brought up, this is generally in most school districts near the top amount of what you might get paid if you have a PhD and have been with the same district for 10 years or more. This is not the starting salary that teachers get.

First off, thanks for teaching and giving my kids and everyone else's a brighter future!
Secondly, I want to back you on the point about salaries. I think the average salary in my district is just under $40k with the starting being just over $30k. For a profession that REQUIRES you to obtain a Master's Degree, it doesn't seem like much of a bargain.
And I am sorry it's that way. I belong to my local PTO and show upfor every School Committee meeting. And it's still not anywhere approximating the work folks like you do to grow their horizons.

_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.

Tinfoilers Swallow

(in reply to KeriB)

Post #: 59

RE: Are You Sick Of "Over Paid" Public School... - 11/23/2011 9:57:28 AM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

My love's daughter is a teacher, with a master's degree, and about 5 years experience. She makes 37K a year, and buys her own supplies and pays for her own transportation to various conventions and events. If her dad hadn't put her through school, she would no doubt also be paying off student loans. It is a crap job and I can't imagine why anyone would want to do it. If it weren't for the unions, it would probably be even more miserable. It really isn't all that surprising that our kids are poorly educated, why would anyone with any talent go into teaching? My hope is that she will abandon the job and find something more profitable to do with her science background.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to SternSkipper)

Post #: 60

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