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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/23/2011 9:07:11 PM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe

Which choice will get me a good long beating?


Cmere babeee I choose to lash you til the dogs get let out

BadOne

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 1:36:09 PM   
David519


Posts: 27
Joined: 10/29/2011
Status: offline 		I believe I'm hardwired to be dominant. 

Sadism, I don't know where it's a kink.  My theory is that it is a sexual extension of both my creative and dominant sides.   "I do this because I can", and "hey, I want to see how this would work"

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 3:43:50 PM   
switchblademoi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I know its a subject wich doesn't have a final anwer yet. Why I said hereditary, is because it is proven in alcoholism to be true. It can travel through generations. And its not like a disease. It's a condition, it's a choice to drink or not...It can alter your mindset and also someones genetic make up in a way.. I dont wanna compare bdsm to an addiction nor a disease. But most research is done in that field, so it's the only reference to speculate on. Cleaning out my ancentral house, I found some kinky stuff belonging to my parents and I had one other hint. Never really expected it. But it brought me to this thought.

So it could be we are mutating ourselves, in our own lives and pass it on to our children.
Not just with food but also with thoughts.

I think all components are involved,  Genes, ancestors and personal preference evolving in surroundings.



Some of your posts are a little confusing. I don't see why you think a story about a "suicide" gene gives any credence to the notion of a BDSM gene. I don't know why you think the fact that there is a biological connection to alcoholism has anything to do with BDSM.

OK, for starters, BDSM is complex set of a behaviors, and lots of people engage in BDSM behaviors. So it's hard to even define what BDSM means, in terms of having something you can study in a scientific way.

I suppose there could be some sort of genetic predisposition, but my guess is it wouldn't be as clear and simple as alcoholism, since BDSM isn't as clear and simple.

The real answer is -- no one really knows. So when people make guesses, it probably says more about them, and what they want to believe for whatever reason; and I doubt anyone has an opinion on this that isn't more or less random.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 4:06:41 PM   
Duskypearls


Posts: 3561
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Status: offline 		In spite of knowing I was more a follower than a leader throughout most of my life, and tho' I could lead well when required, it was never my forte. I only became consciously aware I had a strongly submissive nature, sexually and otherwise, just about four years ago.

It wasn't until about just over two years ago, after finally being exposed to BDSM images and erotica for the first time, I found it intensely tittilating and erotic, and realized THAT was who I was and what I wanted. In looking back, it seems the foundation was always there (submissive), but hadn't fully fledged itself out, nor been realized, until I was exposed to BDSM. So, the question of whether it is a case of the chicken or the egg that came first, I honestly cannot say, but it is what I desire and require now, and cannot see a future without it.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 4:21:42 PM   
TheFireWithinMe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFireWithinMe

Which choice will get me a good long beating?


Cmere babeee I choose to lash you til the dogs get let out

BadOne


Went to the address you gave me. Some dude called Pedro answered the door. He had no idea who you are.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 4:59:32 PM   
MikeSojourner


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Status: offline 		Nothing as complicated a concept as BDSM can be purely genetic, and is unlikely to be a purely random choice either.

Genetics may indicate something like high or low empathy, addictive personality, depression, etc.  Maybe even as far as introvert/extrovert.  But, those things only indicate how you are likely to react to certain things. 

You grow up experience various situations and choices.  You genetics may predisposition you to make certain decisions or choices the first time around.  Previous experiences combined with those dispositions affect how you make similar decisions later on.  It could be that life experiences reinforce your genetic predispositions.  Or, it could be that things you experience and choices you make cause you to go a different way.

So, when it comes to BDSM, it is going to be a bit of both.  You may have had some horrible life experiences that cause you to shy away from bdsm.  Or, you could have had some horrible life experiences that drive you towards it.  Maybe you're an "A-Type" that needs to be in control of everything all the time.  Or, maybe you're an "A-Type" that sees this as a way to take a break from needing to be in control. 

Eventually they may come out with a study on BDSM similar to what they have for other mental traits, and say something along the lines "Children of men who identify as dominant are 10% more likely to identify as dominant, even when raised away from the father" or some similar statement.  But, that may just be an indication of predisposition, but it is still going to be up to many other factors as to whether or not they become involved in any sort of relationship involving BDSM.

tl;dr version - Genetics can influence your choice, as can your environment and upbringing, but it is still a choice.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 7:48:11 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caelestis



Well... I think biology can certainly effect how our bodies respond to certain things. For instance, I have cushing's sydrome, which increases the level of my adrenocorticotrophic hormones and in turn, raises the levels of my endorphins. I openly admit that I love the endorphin rushes, I always have, even before I knew what they were. Early in my life it was through exercising, now it is through pain, danger, and arousal. While I've always been a more submissive person, I think I came to this through the allure of pain.

I don't think it was really much of a choice for me. Long before I was consciously going after dominant men, I was subconsciously seeking it out in the guys that were around, and it led me to some dangerous situations, because I wasn't being smart about it. At all.
Fascinating, have to look at that, never heard of Cushings.

There are something like Seven different versions of the DRD4 Dopamine receptor, some of which at least are thought to be associated with risk taking, novelty seeking, and even ADHD - i.e. people not content with doing things the same way everybody else is doing it (which is also a trait of creativity, and creative personalities), and it means some people are more inclined to push the envelope while others prefer to stay tucked safely inside.

Nature, hedging her bets as usual, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of these versions or some arrangement of associated alleles didn't increase sexual adventurousness, it often pays off, in evolutionary terms, and that which works tends to be propagated.

Thing is, everybody probably has all Seven copies, or most of the human race, but certain versions are only activated in certain percentages of the population. Heredity might be one of the activators, although specific stressors might activate specific versions as well, so some nature, some nurture, the usual confluence of factors.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/24/2011 11:49:06 PM   
MrBukani


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Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I understand
.
1 - I took alcohol and suicide because they are reasearched  in genetics and families, not because they have anything to do with bdsm. I think I said that right?

2 - If you break down BDSM it is not complex IMO.  Sadism is a pretty straight forward one way trade. A sadist likes to hurt people. Nothing more nothing less.
A masochist likes pain. Not complex either.
BDSM as a whole is complex yes. I don't imply there is a bdsm gene.
Same for domination and submission. And you know there is such a thing as dominance in biology.

3 - If a scientist wants to evolve in research he has to make assumptions and test them.

So what do you think it say about me?

I believe in choice ultimately, but a predisposition can be very strong.

Now that you're involved in BDSM can you still say no? Is it still a choice for you? Would you be happy in a life without any BDSM?

(in reply to switchblademoi)
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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 5:05:26 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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Status: offline 		I do think there's a predisposition to interpret stimuli, like pain or fear, in different ways. Learned or preferred tendencies to defer or take charge, and maybe a particular aesthetic preference can be cobbled toggether into "BDSM" - and people have varying degrees of these things annd different ways of analyzing their motivationns, and you get a variety of expressions of a similar "thing."

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 6:16:49 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		I think for most of us BDSM starts as inner fantasy and desire that grows with our growing self. Desire leads us to choice. Do we venture in or not? and if we do venture in that leads us to preference (picking out the elements of BDSM we want to be involved with and a partner of our choosing) Its a revolving circle.

Many people were shy 2 year old's or the popular leader in the school playground. I believe that has no significance when it comes to future desires. If it did then all followers would be submissive and all confident leaders would be dominant and that is clearly not the case. during my adolescence something stirred within and it kept on stirring for many years before I made that desire a choice and that choice a preference. I was never born to be a dominant woman but a dominant woman I became

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 6:41:19 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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Status: offline 		I'm not saying that D/s roles are inborn. I'm saying that those are things we learn or come to prefer (or actively choose), but that it could all be a collage of inborn elements or brain chemistry combined with the things we avtively choose. The ability to choose is stronger, I think - like say a person with family history of alcholism (a possible genetic predisposition) then makes a conscious choice not to drink because of the inherited possibility. So just because you may be "predisposed" toward somthing, it's not a certainty that you'll act on it. Buuuut the predisposition may still be there.

Edit:
This kinda goes back to the "dominance is not the same as sadism" thingie. I think a person can be predisposed toward sadism or masochism - that's mostly what I'm talking about. D/s roles are a little differennt, annd I havennn't totally figured out where I stand there.

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 11/25/2011 6:44:05 AM >

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 9:04:22 AM   
switchblademoi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I understand
.
1 - I took alcohol and suicide because they are reasearched  in genetics and families, not because they have anything to do with bdsm. I think I said that right?

2 - If you break down BDSM it is not complex IMO.  Sadism is a pretty straight forward one way trade. A sadist likes to hurt people. Nothing more nothing less.
A masochist likes pain. Not complex either.
BDSM as a whole is complex yes. I don't imply there is a bdsm gene.
Same for domination and submission. And you know there is such a thing as dominance in biology.

3 - If a scientist wants to evolve in research he has to make assumptions and test them.

So what do you think it say about me?

I believe in choice ultimately, but a predisposition can be very strong.

Now that you're involved in BDSM can you still say no? Is it still a choice for you? Would you be happy in a life without any BDSM?



1. You didn't say, but even if you did say that it still wouldn't be relevant.
2. A sadist and a masochist are on extreme ends of the polls. Lots of people have some masochistic and sadistic traits (including many who don't engage in BDSM at all) without really being maochists or sadists. BDSM is a spectrum.
3. I believe BDSM is a choice, though like all the choices we make it is influence by upbringing, environment, and a host of other factors. For me, it's something I enjoy, but if I made a list of the things that make me happy in life, a ton of stuff would come before BDSM.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 9:19:18 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Alcoholism is not a choice. You don't know if you've inherited it until after you've had that first drink. And then it's too late to choose not to drink again. You need all kinds of support systems, education, etc to be able to resist the compulsion to continue to drink.

Interest in BDSM is most undoubtedly a combination of several different factors. You do however have the choice of engaging in it or not. Many people stay happily in vanilla marriages with just porn and fantasy to satisfy their urges.


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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 9:27:58 AM   
MikeSojourner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: switchblademoi
1. You didn't say, but even if you did say that it still wouldn't be relevant.
2. A sadist and a masochist are on extreme ends of the polls. Lots of people have some masochistic and sadistic traits (including many who don't engage in BDSM at all) without really being maochists or sadists. BDSM is a spectrum.
3. I believe BDSM is a choice, though like all the choices we make it is influence by upbringing, environment, and a host of other factors. For me, it's something I enjoy, but if I made a list of the things that make me happy in life, a ton of stuff would come before BDSM.


I really like your points 2 and 3 there.  I especially think a lot of people lose sight of the last half of your #3 -- It doesn't exactly relate to answering the "nature/nurture" question.  But I see a lot of people who become so wrapped up in BDSM that they forget that if it is the only thing in your life, you're living a very narrow life.


Thinking about point 2 further - I would wager that quite a few people (and probably the majority) have some degree of masochistic/sadist traits, and yet don't identify as kinky or related to BDSM at all.  A woman who acts catty to others, a boxer who enjoys fighting, an animal trainer who uses choke collars, a school teacher who believes in corporal punishment, someone who consistently picks bad/abusive partners.  These could all be expressions of the same traits that lead others to experiment with BDSM.  They may lead to healthy outlets, or self-destructive ones.  They may lead to BDSM, or they may not.  They don't force you to make choices, but they may affect how you act within the choices you do make.



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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 9:40:41 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner





Thinking about point 2 further - I would wager that quite a few people (and probably the majority) have some degree of masochistic/sadist traits, and yet don't identify as kinky or related to BDSM at all.  A woman who acts catty to others, a boxer who enjoys fighting, an animal trainer who uses choke collars, a school teacher who believes in corporal punishment, someone who consistently picks bad/abusive partners.  These could all be expressions of the same traits that lead others to experiment with BDSM.  They may lead to healthy outlets, or self-destructive ones.  They may lead to BDSM, or they may not.  They don't force you to make choices, but they may affect how you act within the choices you do make.



I don't agree with this at all. As big as the scene has now become with all the internet availability, its still only a small fraction of society. We may be getting thousands of people showing new interest but its by no means hundreds of thousands.
A woman who acts catty to others is normally an insecure and unhappy person. A boxer fights because its competition, an animal trainer uses choke collars so they don't endanger themselves. A school teacher who believes in corporal punishment better not be kinky and be secretly enjoying the sadism and a person who continually picks abusive partners is often low in self esteem and can have a co-dependent personality.
Some of the above may find they enjoy the aspects of BDSM but most of them don't simply because they are not interested.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 10:05:45 AM   
submaleinuk


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Status: offline 		It's how your brought up, 95%

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 10:07:23 AM   
submaleinuk


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/12/2011
Status: offline 		My take on bdsm is that controlling/overly dominant people are just insecure people, there's a lot of people like that out there, people who are into bdsm just take it a bit futrther, I'd say people who are overly submissive are taking the easy option in life and not being their true self.

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 10:18:17 AM   
Epytropos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleinuk

People who are different from me are BAD and also IMBALANCED.


Fixed that for you ;)

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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 10:23:48 AM   
MikeSojourner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

A woman who acts catty to others is normally an insecure and unhappy person. A boxer fights because its competition, an animal trainer uses choke collars so they don't endanger themselves. A school teacher who believes in corporal punishment better not be kinky and be secretly enjoying the sadism and a person who continually picks abusive partners is often low in self esteem and can have a co-dependent personality.
Some of the above may find they enjoy the aspects of BDSM but most of them don't simply because they are not interested.



That's actually what I was trying to say -- those people are not kinky/bdsm identifying.  They have traits which may be similar to those who do identify as into bdsm, but those traits don't force them into bdsm. 

There are other training methods than choke collars, there are plenty of teachers who don't believe in corporate punishment, a boxer doesn't box purely for competition - there are plenty of other ways to compete.  These people do not see what they do as kinky, sexual, or bdsm related.  A boxer may get a rush out of beating his opponent, and a top may get a rush off beating a bottom.  Both may do what they do partly because of the  rush they get from their actions.  And that rush may have the exact same biological source.  But, the boxer and top have made choices that have lead to them to identify that rush and experience it through very different circumstances.

There is a thin line between a healthy and an unhealthy expression of sadist/masochistic traits or tendencies.  Take for example the person who constantly picks abusive partners and a slave that feels a need for a master.  One is obviously unhealthy, while the other one is not.  But, it is possible that there is a biological/genetic trait that causes them both to be predisposed towards wanting to submit to another.  But, if so, that would only be a tendency, not something specific enough to force you to pick abusive partners or masters.  It is more likely to be environment and upbringing that caused them to choose between a healthy outlet for that tendency and an unhealthy outlet. 

At the end of the day - it's still a choice.  Your genetics coupled with your environment and upbringing means you may desire certain things.  But it's still a choice to pursue those things. Once you are completely unable to make the choice it passes from the realm of predisposition into disease.  We may desire candy and sweets all the time, because our body tells us they are good, but it's a choice to eat healthy instead. 

Someone mentioned alcoholism earlier -- it's still debated if that is a disease or a choice.  I lean towards choice heavily influenced by genetics -- your genetics and background influence you very strongly towards drinking, which makes it very hard to choose not to.  But, there are still plenty of people who identify as alcoholic who choose not to drink. 

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: Is BDSM a choice? - 11/25/2011 12:15:46 PM   
submaleinuk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epytropos


quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleinuk

People who are different from me are BAD and also IMBALANCED.


Fixed that for you ;)


Why do you feel the need to control others though? Can you not give and receive love without it? I genuinely don't beleive anyone is born that way.

(in reply to Epytropos)
Profile   Post #: 40
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