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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 6:32:04 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim

I mentioned that I studied religions for years.


Crap.  You're right.  I missed that part.  I apologize.



Actually, he said that he studied many religions before settling on Judaism.

To answer the question though, I think that the OP is reading too much into liking a statue and is trying to self-justify it as something deeper and more meaningful than it is. For some reason many folks seem to have trouble allowing themselves to like or have something without having a defense or a justification for it. "I think it is nifty" just is not enough.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 6:57:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim

I respect the Victorian age but Freud's ideas are a bit dated...

Okay, first time I made a joke about it... but now this is getting creepy.

Be advised that my post contained nothing whatsoever of Freud, his theories, or his topology of the psyche. The (obscure, I admit) proof that this startling claim is true can be found in the phrase, "In Jung's formulation...."

You appear to be having a conversation with one of your hallucinations.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/27/2011 7:08:43 PM >

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 7:08:11 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim

I respect the Victorian age but Freud's ideas are a bit dated...

My post contained nothing whatsoever of Freud, his theories, or his topology of the psyche. The (obscure, I admit) proof that this startling claim is true can be found in the phrase, "In Jung's formulation...." It would appear that you are having a conversation with one of your hallucinations.

K.





Maybe he is talking with the statue that "speaks" to him.


_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 7:11:14 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Maybe he is talking with the statue that "speaks" to him.

I dunno, do you think there could be something in my avatar that confused him?

The hat maybe.

K.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 8:02:20 PM   
littlewonder


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You saw a statue. You thought it was pretty neat. You bought it. End of story. Nothing deep there.

I doubt the statue had much of anything to do with your conflict. If you are conflicted now you probably were before. It just took the statue for you to decide to confront it.

Or you just like to think that every single thing you see or like has some kind of deeper meaning..sorry but a cigar is just a cigar.



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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 8:32:37 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim

I seek the views of people who study religion and not those "blinded by faith". I am Jewish and have been on my path for quite a while. I studied many religions and felt most comfortable with the faith of my grandfather. Recently I was out picking and came across a statue of the Hindu goddess Kali. She imediatly spoke to me in a way I have not felt in a long time. Some would say she chose me. Now I have a ton of Jewish things about my room with a Kali statue in the window by my bed. My path directs me to not worship another god but my connection is so strong with Kali. Any advise?


yeh unless you need "state recognition" get rid of the label and expand your definition of G-D, or deny your exploration and find what you seek within the realm of judaism.


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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 8:39:55 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

If you are conflicted now you probably were before. It just took the statue for you to decide to confront it.

Fair enough. But the fact remains that no other representation in art or statuary struck the right chord, so there is something in the way Kali resonates with him that is worth understanding. It is not unheared of to build up a careful intellectual structure, move into it feeling secure, and then have the hand of something numinous reach right through the walls and touch us as if they weren't even there. What does it mean? Where did it come from? What is it? And what do we do about it? Anything? Nothing? Forget it? That can be easier said than done.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/27/2011 8:41:28 PM >

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 8:47:30 PM   
littlewonder


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I guess I just don't think that deeply when I see something I like. I just say "hey that's kewl. I think I'll buy it. It will fit nicely in my decor".

I just think people like to make more of something than it really needs to be.



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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/27/2011 11:19:17 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Maybe he is talking with the statue that "speaks" to him.

I dunno, do you think there could be something in my avatar that confused him?

The hat maybe.

K.


Naw. I think it is an attempt to appear more knowledgeable than he is. Admitting ignorance is scary. Although he could have wiki'd it.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/28/2011 12:35:56 AM   
MissAsylum


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OP, you're reading too much into it.

I'm Jewish, and i've felt the way you've described about a pair of Louboutin high heels. Has my religion been challenged as a result? Nope.

You saw a statue, caught shiny ball syndrome, bought it, and put it in your room. If you saw a beautifully ornate crucifix and decided to buy it, has your faith changed?

If it had affected you as much as you are claiming to have, you'd look into practicing Hinduism, and possibly converting or aligning the Hindu faith with your Judaic faith...and this thread would have entirely different content or not have been posted.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/28/2011 10:07:52 AM   
kalikshama


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I've felt an incredible sense of...something...three times - in the redwood forest in CA in 1999, in a Buddhist temple in NY in 2003, and in a Thai Temple in FL in 2009.

I wonder if people are quick to negate the OP's experience because he was a dick in subsequent posts.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/28/2011 10:37:37 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim
a Kali statue in the window by my bed. My path directs me to not worship another god but my connection is so strong with Kali. Any advise?

Yes: oppose circumcision.

As for Kali: I doubt she cares what pagan god people worship, or what object or principle. The Divine is in everything. Thus, most pure is to worship the Divine as is. (There are other options, but I suspect you do not want to hear those.)

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/28/2011 10:50:11 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim
I seek the views of people who study religion and not those "blinded by faith". I am Jewish and have been on my path for quite a while. I studied many religions and felt most comfortable with the faith of my grandfather. Recently I was out picking and came across a statue of the Hindu goddess Kali. She imediatly spoke to me in a way I have not felt in a long time. Some would say she chose me. Now I have a ton of Jewish things about my room with a Kali statue in the window by my bed. My path directs me to not worship another god but my connection is so strong with Kali. Any advise?

Here is my advice: Hear "Choosing my religion", for a start. It is a good song.

Then, make your own religion. I am serious. The official religions are the result of memetic evolution, politics, economy, cultural movements, random... why the heck should any deep, serious knowledge about the universe (you know how big and complex and strange it is, yes?) lie on one of those... social... artifacts... instead of one of the, infinitely more numerous, systems you can develop on your own? Plus, your religion will speak to you in a language you can understand, TRULY understand. With more meaning that words from anyone else.

So, who knows? Maybe Yahveh fucked Kali and had the mankind, and then got pissed off her ambiguous but strong nature (He, God of the Simple and Absolute) and that was the origin of His misoginy. Or maybe what I said now is total bullshit. Or maybe it is a metapher for human biological evolution. Or maybe something behind it.

Maybe your life of studies was the way to prepare you to build your own facette, your own looking glass to see a part of a Big Truth.

Continue your search, and do never pretend to arrive to a final conclusion. Enjoy the trip - Ithaca has given you the Odissey, to arrive there is not so important. Find the things which you cannot express with words, and enjoy their value as knowledge of that which is beyond our ability to speak.

That would be my advice.

"Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
"

Best regards.


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 11/28/2011 11:01:33 AM >


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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 12:03:22 PM   
nyphylim


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Maybe I was an ass but when people start acting as if feeling a connection to a symbol of faith is just like a pair of drapes or carpet then I feel they have totally missed the point and it offends me deeply. I do thank those who understand or attempted to and gave ginuine feedback. Back to the tomes I go.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 12:42:58 PM   
MissAsylum


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Sorry, i havent read your previous posts, nor have i heard of you (as i'm sure is mutual) before this one.

I'm going by what you have described. It sounds like shiny ball syndrome -
Which i've suffered from for a long time.


I apologize, but seeking advice from strangers about something so individualistic and deeply personal strikes me as a bit silly.

If you are feeling so strongly about it, only you can determine the proper course of action.

< Message edited by MissAsylum -- 11/29/2011 12:49:54 PM >


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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 12:43:27 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

First piece of adice I would give you is to study what Kali actually is.  ............  I define it by worship, regular attendance, and what life you live.



That was my first thought, study more. See if you still feel the same after you know more about what she represents. Myabe the statue is just aesthetically pleasing to you.

What beliefs do you put into practice??

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 12:46:44 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

......I would estimate 30% of the ashram where I spent two years to have been Jewish.

...............I also identify with some aspects of Kali, and Kshama (hence my nic.)


How cool you lived in an ashram! I thought your nic was related to Kali, I didn't know about Kshama. Hello google.....

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 12:52:58 PM   
kalikshama


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As my 14 year marriage was winding down, I thought immersing myself in yoga, doing inner work, and living in community would be just the ticket, and I was right!

I started with this program: http://www.kripalu.org/be_a_part_of_kripalu/14/, stayed there for a year, then went to the ashram.




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 11/29/2011 12:58:22 PM >

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 12:54:02 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyphylim

Maybe I was an ass but when people start acting as if feeling a connection to a symbol of faith is just like a pair of drapes or carpet then I feel they have totally missed the point and it offends me deeply. I do thank those who understand or attempted to and gave ginuine feedback. Back to the tomes I go.



When you say you have studied various beliefs, you didn't specify Hinduism. No one knew if that had been on your list.

Maybe the attraction was only aesthetic, maybe it was a sign to delve further. That's up to you to decide.

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RE: A Jew with a choice. - 11/29/2011 1:53:24 PM   
Demspotis


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If I am reading this right, the conflict is between feeling an attachment to the murti (= statue or other physical form or representation of a deity) of Kali on one hand, and the Torah laws against worshipping "other gods", or for that matter, worshipping statues. I can't give firm or authoritative advice on this, not being a rabbi (nor Jewish at all, but I've gained at least some knowledge of rabbinical thought over the last few years), but I can offer a few things to think about, some of which might help.

It is possible that certain developments in the Jewish world in recent years might help to resolve this. I apologize for not having a direct link for the following information, but I read about it in several different printed magazines and papers, and heard about other articles on it, as well. Presumably they could be tracked down with a search engine. I saw at least two articles, a few months to a year apart, in Hinduism Today magazine, which has its back issues archived online.

Notably, (AFAIR) several years ago there was a conference or summit between the grand rabbinate of Israel and a group of Hindu leaders, at which it was concluded that Hindu murtis are not in fact "idols", and Hindus are not "idol-worshippers", such as are condemned in Torah. This was on the basis that Hindu theology in general (but bear in mind that Hinduism actually includes a variety of rather different theological schools) identifies their ultimate object of worship as the One Supreme Being, and the Murtis are symbolic of aspects or attributes of that One.

Unfortunately, the articles I saw were intended for lay readers, not religious scholars, and were meant for Hindus, so they weren't in depth from the Jewish side. But, I can surmise what the rabbis might have thought. Also note that I have no idea how widely known that might be in the Jewish world, nor which rabbis around the world might or might not feel bound to abide by the decisions of the Israeli rabbis involved.

One point is that the Biblical/Torah rules against "idols" were particularly formulated against the definitely polytheistic neighbors (mostly other kinds of Semites: Babylonians, Assyrians, Canaanites, Arabs, Aramaeans, etc.) of the ancient Jews, and the idols worshipped were definitely not considered forms of the One. Hinduism comes from an entirely different cultural and spiritual tradition, and in even the earliest sources (Rig Veda) it shows awareness of that One Supreme Being, alongside other, lesser divine beings. The latter are often described by modern Hindu teachers as equivalent to the angels of Judaism and its offshoots.

In Jewish terms, too, it is at least plausible to suggest identity between feminine manifestations of the One in Hinduism, such as Kali, and the Shekhinah of Jewish theology, as well as the feminine concepts found in Kabbalah.

As Kalikshama says, there is a seemingly disproportionate number of people of Jewish background involved in Eastern religions in the US. I've seen or heard of this in most of the organized groups with Western converts to Eastern religions.

In the end, you have to decide for yourself how to proceed. If I may put it in the starkest terms: if you practice Judaism, you have to consider whether this attraction to Kali Ma is truly divine in your terms, or a temptation from "sitra achra". And from the Hindu side, I know of an important spiritually pragmatic rule of thumb: accept that which enhances your connection to Divinity, and reject that which impedes it. And that can be different, even opposite, for different people.


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