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RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 4:24:04 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And I will point out again that we already ban many ideas.


What are you referring to?



quote:

but I get uncomfortable when people start banning ideas


From the post you were agreeing too.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 4:28:26 PM   
imperatrixx


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Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		I mean which banned ideas are you referring to.

I'm of the mindset that it is fine to criminalize actions, but not thoughts. I'd have to know what specifically you're talking about to be able to give my opinion in those cases but in general I think, to give an extreme example, that pedophilia should be illegal but organizations like NAMBLA should be free to talk about how great they think it is, so long as they don't actually do it.

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 4:38:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		To use your example....If a pedophile planned a speaking engagement to discuss the "how to" of abducting a child, then raping, how far would he get?

My own example...

How many books are banned across this country every year?

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/09/29/12-books-that-have-ironically-been-banned-in-the-u-s/

How about a how to make a bomb discussion?

We do ban ideas... not only as a federal government, but at state and local levels as well.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 4:44:01 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		let alone the freedom of womens rights over their own bodies
and thats the last im gonna say

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 4:49:19 PM   
imperatrixx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

To use your example....If a pedophile planned a speaking engagement to discuss the "how to" of abducting a child, then raping, how far would he get?

My own example...

How many books are banned across this country every year?

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/09/29/12-books-that-have-ironically-been-banned-in-the-u-s/

How about a how to make a bomb discussion?

We do ban ideas... not only as a federal government, but at state and local levels as well.



AFAIK Duke wasn't going to give a speech that would explain how to kill Jews or lynch blacks. But that is a grey area, between actually planning a crime and talking in the abstract about ideas.

I don't think that books should be banned and I'm just as uncomfortable with that as I am about silencing vocalized ideas.

The internet is currently the last bastion of free speech, but I have no doubt that within the next 20 years that will no longer be true and that makes me sad.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 4:58:02 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

To use your example....If a pedophile planned a speaking engagement to discuss the "how to" of abducting a child, then raping, how far would he get?

My own example...

How many books are banned across this country every year?

http://www.neatorama.com/2011/09/29/12-books-that-have-ironically-been-banned-in-the-u-s/

How about a how to make a bomb discussion?

We do ban ideas... not only as a federal government, but at state and local levels as well.



AFAIK Duke wasn't going to give a speech that would explain how to kill Jews or lynch blacks. But that is a grey area, between actually planning a crime and talking in the abstract about ideas.

I don't think that books should be banned and I'm just as uncomfortable with that as I am about silencing vocalized ideas.

The internet is currently the last bastion of free speech, but I have no doubt that within the next 20 years that will no longer be true and that makes me sad.


He was sprouting theories that are definitely anti-semitic and wrong, also the denial of the Holocaust is illegal in Germany, if he finds that offensice why did he go to Germany?

There is a major difference between vocalized ideas and hate speech. Hey doing certain drugs is legal in some parts of the world, it's not legal in the US and people from different countries will be deported and refused to enter the country again, their turf, their rules, if you don't like it, don't go there, Pretty simply, isn't it?

I don't mind anybody smoking, but if you insist to smoke in my house, I'll ask you to leave, because it's my turf, you don't like it, don't come here, simple!

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:02:40 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

let alone the freedom of womens rights over their own bodies
and thats the last im gonna say



LOL

liar.

~smooches

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:03:23 PM   
imperatrixx


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Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		In theory, that is sound, but I don't see it as any sort of final solution in democratized nations where the laws are currently in flux. Also, there is a finite amount of space in the world, and you can't always just find somewhere that X is legal. When the whole world bans it, then what?

I agreed with Violet's post, and she did specify that Germany's ban is understandable. I do agree that if you break a law, you should be understanding about the fact that there will be consequences. However I'm also an activist at heart, and I don't think any law is set in stone, so my opinion on the matter is not about whether Duke should be deported but about the merit of the law itself.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:03:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

AFAIK Duke wasn't going to give a speech that would explain how to kill Jews or lynch blacks. But that is a grey area, between actually planning a crime and talking in the abstract about ideas.


Well, if we are going to talk abotu grey areas, can anyone give a speech on killing the President?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:05:30 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I don't mind anybody smoking, but if you insist to smoke in my house, I'll ask you to leave, because it's my turf, you don't like it, don't come here, simple!


That was part of my point about the books that are banned. Most are at the local level... people just like me and you, who decided those books arent good to read.

We may not like the outcome... but we cant blame the governments for that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:05:46 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		I'm not a legal expert, but I'd imagine a lot of it might depend on if it was "Use this rifle, from this vantage point, when President Obama is at XYZ scheduled event" vs "They're all a bunch of lazy bums, put a bullet in their heads and let's just start over."

Again, I'm not a legal expert.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:12:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol

your latter is something they say almost everyday.. metaphorically speaking.

the first, which is what i meant, would not be allowed... and all it is is an idea.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:15:00 PM   
imperatrixx


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Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, there's definitely a grey area between planning a crime and just talking in the abstract.

What I'm curious about now would be if someone were saying that Obama should be assassinated...if it were clear that they wouldn't do it, they wouldn't plan it, they wouldn't directly incite anyone else to do it, etc. Personally I think that should be legal, as disturbing as I find it (and yes I would find it disturbing if they said the same about GWB or anyone else) but I really wonder, is just saying "This person should be killed" in the abstract considered protected speech or not?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:17:51 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Why should someone be dead because you dont like them? I think that should be the litmus test. Even our legal system doesnt have that right. Why should the public?

Why is hate ok?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:22:31 PM   
imperatrixx


Posts: 903
Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		Well I don't think anyone should be dead, but I'm wary of the idea of criminalizing speech that supports something illegal, simply because I often speak out in favor of committing crimes (seriously about drug crimes, tongue-in-cheek about piracy) and I think that there would need to be another reason besides "supporting crime in concept" to ban a speech, such as directly planning or inciting a crime. The biggest test of free speech is protecting the freedom to say something abominable.

I don't think hate is okay, but I think it should be legal.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:23:51 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx

In theory, that is sound, but I don't see it as any sort of final solution in democratized nations where the laws are currently in flux. Also, there is a finite amount of space in the world, and you can't always just find somewhere that X is legal. When the whole world bans it, then what?

I agreed with Violet's post, and she did specify that Germany's ban is understandable. I do agree that if you break a law, you should be understanding about the fact that there will be consequences. However I'm also an activist at heart, and I don't think any law is set in stone, so my opinion on the matter is not about whether Duke should be deported but about the merit of the law itself.


The merit of the law itself is the history of Germany and the law was made to prevent another Holocaust - the very thing DD denies ever happened. So what do you think is preferable? The death of thousands of people in the gas chambers at the hands of the Nazis meaning nothing because some some American comes to the country and declares it was a fabrication and denies the evidence, while trying to support supremacist groups, a country being torn to pieces by Israel and other nations for allowing this guy to be there and practise hate speech, just for the single reason that this guy wants to spew hate in ONE country that doesn't want him?

Again, the US have it on the visa waiver form that they can deny entrance without any reason, so do you think it would have been better if Germany would have executed the same right and not let him in without giving a reason? How come what is right for one country is "thought police" for another one?

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:34:32 PM   
imperatrixx


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Joined: 3/29/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

The merit of the law itself is the history of Germany and the law was made to prevent another Holocaust - the very thing DD denies ever happened. So what do you think is preferable? The death of thousands of people in the gas chambers at the hands of the Nazis meaning nothing because some some American comes to the country and declares it was a fabrication and denies the evidence, while trying to support supremacist groups, a country being torn to pieces by Israel and other nations for allowing this guy to be there and practise hate speech, just for the single reason that this guy wants to spew hate in ONE country that doesn't want him?

Again, the US have it on the visa waiver form that they can deny entrance without any reason, so do you think it would have been better if Germany would have executed the same right and not let him in without giving a reason? How come what is right for one country is "thought police" for another one?


I don't feel any sort of "thought police" is right, I am hardly speaking from a pro-American standpoint here. I find the American attitude toward "terrorism sympathizers" disturbing and I would be appalled if someone were denied an entrance visa to the US because they were, say, pro-Hamas, even if there was no evidence they have or would be violent.

I also don't think that there's a clear cut choice between letting Duke speak and allowing another Holocaust to happen. Of course I don't support any genocide or mass murder.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 5:46:43 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: imperatrixx


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

The merit of the law itself is the history of Germany and the law was made to prevent another Holocaust - the very thing DD denies ever happened. So what do you think is preferable? The death of thousands of people in the gas chambers at the hands of the Nazis meaning nothing because some some American comes to the country and declares it was a fabrication and denies the evidence, while trying to support supremacist groups, a country being torn to pieces by Israel and other nations for allowing this guy to be there and practise hate speech, just for the single reason that this guy wants to spew hate in ONE country that doesn't want him?

Again, the US have it on the visa waiver form that they can deny entrance without any reason, so do you think it would have been better if Germany would have executed the same right and not let him in without giving a reason? How come what is right for one country is "thought police" for another one?


I don't feel any sort of "thought police" is right, I am hardly speaking from a pro-American standpoint here. I find the American attitude toward "terrorism sympathizers" disturbing and I would be appalled if someone were denied an entrance visa to the US because they were, say, pro-Hamas, even if there was no evidence they have or would be violent.

I also don't think that there's a clear cut choice between letting Duke speak and allowing another Holocaust to happen. Of course I don't support any genocide or mass murder.


There is plenty of evidence the Holocaust happened and therefore certain political parties and Nazi insignia are not allowed in Germany. It's not thought police, it's a reaction to very real things that happened and should not happen again, they are doing what they can to avoid it.

Nobody cares what DD thinks, it's not Thought Police, they are not trying to pry thoughts out of his mind (a futile job anyway), they simply do not allow hate speech, he goes on their turf and decides to ignore their laws and he gets deported, big fucking deal. Now get upset that the US doesn't allow pot smoking as a recreational drug as most of Europe does, care to call that thought control as well?

There is a very clear cut choice Duke made, he broke a law and he was deported, now if I go to the US and work illegally, sell drugs or do anything against the law, I would be deported - would you be just as upset about that? If not your stance is a bit hypocritical!

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 6:10:17 PM   
imperatrixx


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Joined: 3/29/2011
Status: offline 		I am not upset that Duke got deported.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 6:45:57 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Neither am I, it shows fear on the part of those who deported him. The type who wish to control ideas.

T^T

(in reply to imperatrixx)
Profile   Post #: 80
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