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RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 6:48:29 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And I think some ideas should be controlled.

~shrugs

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 10:04:17 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

I'm actually against this. I do believe that the world could do without him and his ideas, but I also believe that the world could do without suppression of ideas.


If this was about him suppressing "ideas" it might make some sense. He is essentially spreading his own propaganda stating that history as we know it actually is a myth. Not even close to the "suppression of ideas."

(in reply to VioletGray)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 10:18:27 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

I'm actually against this. I do believe that the world could do without him and his ideas, but I also believe that the world could do without suppression of ideas.


If this was about him suppressing "ideas" it might make some sense. He is essentially spreading his own propaganda stating that history as we know it actually is a myth. Not even close to the "suppression of ideas."


I think you misunderstand. If you arrest someone for having certain beliefs then you are suppressing ideas. I think that all ideas, even terrible ones should have some degree of protection, because what constitutes a bad idea is subjective. So given the choice I would let him have his stupid ideas, because I would want him to allow me mine.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 10:45:24 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

VioletGray
I think that all ideas, even terrible ones should have some degree of protection, because what constitutes a bad idea is subjective. So given the choice I would let him have his stupid ideas, because I would want him to allow me mine.


Generally, I don't believe that people ought to be allowed to abuse freedom of speech by using their freedom to speak to incite or spread hate and/or violence. My mind is far from closed on this. I see a lot of merit in the POV Violet is advancing.

However if one wishes to test anti-hate speech laws, the place to do that is in your own country, not a foreign country where different laws apply, where there has been a different experience and history, where perhaps differing cultural values apply. Given the unique history of Germany, it's probably the last place a looney Right hate-monger like Duke should be allowed to spread his filth. If one feels that both sides of this argument are fairly closely balanced, that ought to tip the scales against Duke/KKK types being allowed entry to Germany.

There is another aspect to consider here too. Duke's speech was likely to provoke a strong reaction from anti-fascist forces in Germany. His speech could have set off a chain of events and provocations that end up in violent confrontations. Germany (and all countries) has a right to protect itself/themselves from such provocations by foreigners.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/1/2011 10:48:33 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/1/2011 10:52:02 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Something that was mentioned, tweak.

Germany has struggled recently with a resurgence of nationalist groups, some which have been tied to violence against minorities and immigrants. Several days before Duke's arrest, German prosecutors announced a new investigation into a neo-Nazi gang tied to 10 murders, including the killing of a policewoman. The group, which had escaped detection for over a decade, is also suspected in attacks in Cologne and Duesseldorf that injured more than 30 people, mostly immigrants and minorities.

"We all have a responsibility to ensure that extreme-right, nationalistic and anti-Semitic groups and networks are not able to again come together,"]Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, the German justice minister, said in a statement, according to the Associated Press.

Was their decision based upon fear? I can understand why.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 5:24:34 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Something that was mentioned, tweak.

Germany has struggled recently with a resurgence of nationalist groups, some which have been tied to violence against minorities and immigrants. Several days before Duke's arrest, German prosecutors announced a new investigation into a neo-Nazi gang tied to 10 murders, including the killing of a policewoman. The group, which had escaped detection for over a decade, is also suspected in attacks in Cologne and Duesseldorf that injured more than 30 people, mostly immigrants and minorities.

"We all have a responsibility to ensure that extreme-right, nationalistic and anti-Semitic groups and networks are not able to again come together,"]Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, the German justice minister, said in a statement, according to the Associated Press.

Was their decision based upon fear? I can understand why.


I can understand why they would do it, but I'm not convinced that it actually works in the long run. My understanding is that the far-right nationalist groups are larger, more powerful, more disciplined and better organized than their U.S. counterparts, which is somewhat ironic, considering that hate speech and Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S., while illegal in many European countries.

Germany tried to ban the Nazi party in the 1920s, but it didn't work then either.

As a citizen and a member of the general public, I sometimes feel as if my right to know is being violated whenever I'm denied access to read or see something that the government is trying to protect me from. It's as if they're trying to say that I'm too weak-minded, that I would be suddenly entranced by propaganda and automatically turned into some kind of zombie.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 8:56:00 AM   
geilematz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63



... My understanding is that the far-right nationalist groups are larger, more powerful, more disciplined and better organized than their U.S. counterparts, which is somewhat ironic, considering that hate speech and Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S., while illegal in many European countries.





I wonder how and where you got that "understanding" - I seriously doubt what you claim here ...


(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 10:34:37 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63



... My understanding is that the far-right nationalist groups are larger, more powerful, more disciplined and better organized than their U.S. counterparts, which is somewhat ironic, considering that hate speech and Holocaust denial are legal in the U.S., while illegal in many European countries.





I wonder how and where you got that "understanding" - I seriously doubt what you claim here ...



Well, I could be wrong, but I thought some of the far-right parties in Europe had made inroads into gaining some seats in their respective parliaments. Germany has the NPD, Britain has the BNP. I think the Netherlands had some far-right politicians in their parliament as well, and also in France. I'm not claiming any expertise in this, so if I'm wrong, please correct me, but it just seems that those groups have had more success in the political arena in their respective countries than I've seen in the United States. Duke is the only one I can think of who actually won a seat in a state legislature, but that was over 20 years ago, and that was kind of a fluke anyway. They just don't seem to really amount to much here.








(in reply to geilematz)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 10:48:20 AM   
geilematz


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/1/2011
Status: offline 		yes there are right wing parties like BNP in the UK, NPD (discussed to become forbidden these days with a popular majority of about 3/4 of the population) in Germany, Neo-fascists in Italy, FPÖ and BZÖ in Austria asf ... usually getting about 3-10 % of the vote depending on the tides of anti-Muslim propaganda asf

but what I read here and elsewhere about US tea party, religious, other discussions about Republican party positions makes me believe quite the opposite from what you say

most of it would disqualify that sort of politicians automatically in most European states as ultra right wing extremists

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 11:36:08 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		General info. BNP and UK elections

The BNP have never had a member elected for parliament. They have had two "Euro MEPs" and several local councillors, part of the reason for this is a low trunout in these types of election and people voting for them as a "protest vote" between out General Elections. they (the BNP) have lost several of the local council seats gained now. I cant see them ever getting a seat in Parliament as they are considered extremists.


(in reply to geilematz)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 12:43:30 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz
but what I read here and elsewhere about US tea party, religious, other discussions about Republican party positions makes me believe quite the opposite from what you say

most of it would disqualify that sort of politicians automatically in most European states as ultra right wing extremists


Perhaps, although I think there are worlds of difference between the Republicans and what is generally regarded as the far-right. Ideologically, they still seem pretty attached to the legacy of Ronald Reagan. That might be more along the lines of the soft-right, not the far-right, not anything extreme like David Duke or others at that level. I'll admit that the religious right might be a bit worrisome, although the mainline churches are more moderate and tend to balance things out.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it can't happen here. If the economy continues to tank and we can't seem to get out of this mess that we're in, then who knows?


(in reply to geilematz)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 1:15:39 PM   
geilematz


Posts: 86
Joined: 1/1/2011
Status: offline 		oh I really hope there might be some difference - but since even European conservative politicians and their positions are considered far left almost-communist for many US right one should not wonder how far far far right these appear in European standards (without probably being aware themselves)



(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/2/2011 4:01:14 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

I'm actually against this. I do believe that the world could do without him and his ideas, but I also believe that the world could do without suppression of ideas.


If this was about him suppressing "ideas" it might make some sense. He is essentially spreading his own propaganda stating that history as we know it actually is a myth. Not even close to the "suppression of ideas."


I think you misunderstand. If you arrest someone for having certain beliefs then you are suppressing ideas. I think that all ideas, even terrible ones should have some degree of protection, because what constitutes a bad idea is subjective. So given the choice I would let him have his stupid ideas, because I would want him to allow me mine.



Excuse me, he wasn't arrested for having "certain ideas" he was arrested for planning to give hate speech in a country in which it is illegal. YOUR country reserves the right to deny entrance to anybody without giving any reason, so how come that Germany gave a reason (as he announced that he planned breaking their laws) and that all of a sudden is suppressing ideas?

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/3/2011 6:46:26 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz

oh I really hope there might be some difference - but since even European conservative politicians and their positions are considered far left almost-communist for many US right one should not wonder how far far far right these appear in European standards (without probably being aware themselves)


They might seem further to left than us, although I tend to think the difference is only by degrees. But I know they're not communist. I've been behind the Iron Curtain, and I can easily tell the difference right off.

But yeah, there are U.S. conservatives who do a lot of red-baiting, calling people "communists" whenever the mood strikes them. It was much worse during the Cold War. It used to bother me more during the Reagan era, but I guess I've just gotten numb to it by now.



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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/3/2011 8:41:15 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Duke is the only one I can think of who actually won a seat in a state legislature, but that was over 20 years ago, and that was kind of a fluke anyway. They just don't seem to really amount to much here.


You need to do more research.

Randy Gray, a racist activist from Michigan and a member of the Knight’s Party of the Ku Klux Klan, has been elected as a Republican Precinct Delegate in the city of Midland, Michigan. According election results from the August 5 primary election in Midland, Gray was one of three candidates elected in a race in which three positions had to be filled.

http://www.mediamouse.org/news/2008/09/ku-klux-klan-me.php

He was subsequently removed.

Senator Robert Byrd had a history with the Klan.. albeit he denounces them.

Massive arguments there ensued. Duke ran as a Democrat, and couldnt get elected. He switched to Republican and was elected to office. When it came out the Byrd was a former member of the Klan, the Republicans had a fit. Selective memory and all that.

Anyone, even a Klan member, can run for office. There is no guarentee they will be elected. That is the choice of the voters.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/3/2011 9:30:57 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Duke is the only one I can think of who actually won a seat in a state legislature, but that was over 20 years ago, and that was kind of a fluke anyway. They just don't seem to really amount to much here.


You need to do more research.

Randy Gray, a racist activist from Michigan and a member of the Knight’s Party of the Ku Klux Klan, has been elected as a Republican Precinct Delegate in the city of Midland, Michigan. According election results from the August 5 primary election in Midland, Gray was one of three candidates elected in a race in which three positions had to be filled.

http://www.mediamouse.org/news/2008/09/ku-klux-klan-me.php

He was subsequently removed.


I never heard of him.

But I was referring to state legislatures (or the Congress, something at that level, since that would be more significant and comparable to their European counterparts occupying positions in their regional or national parliaments).

quote:


Senator Robert Byrd had a history with the Klan.. albeit he denounces them.


Well, sure, I suppose America itself has had some rather dark pages in its history which many of us denounce today (just as Germany most certainly has). I just don't see it happening in America today, though.

I'll admit I never heard of the guy in Michigan you mentioned, but as you say, he was removed. There may be some city council members or school board members in some smaller cities and towns that might get in on a fluke, but I'm not particularly worried that the Nazis could take over America. I just don't see it happening.

quote:


Massive arguments there ensued. Duke ran as a Democrat, and couldnt get elected. He switched to Republican and was elected to office. When it came out the Byrd was a former member of the Klan, the Republicans had a fit. Selective memory and all that.

Anyone, even a Klan member, can run for office. There is no guarentee they will be elected. That is the choice of the voters.


My point was, I don't think they can get elected, at least not anymore, except in the most isolated occurrences.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/3/2011 9:37:54 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		They cannot get elected because the voters wont elect them... not because they arent allowed to run. Despite all the threats from right suprematists, they are still able to have their thoughts... to a point.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Germany sets to deport KKK chappie - 12/3/2011 10:07:48 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

They cannot get elected because the voters wont elect them... not because they arent allowed to run. Despite all the threats from right suprematists, they are still able to have their thoughts... to a point.


I agree.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 98
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