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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 4:14:51 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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That's silly.

Anyway, since you can't or won't discuss it without the raw data, I guess there's no point in talking to you here. See you on another thread. 

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 4:16:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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Thank you!

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 4:17:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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So, anyone have a link to the actual study? Everything I keep finding says the guy hasnt released the study to be viewed yet.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 4:44:54 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I want to point out that the survey does NOT say anything about what "Christians" feel, only "religious" people, without reference to what religion. I think the results are based on two factors.

1. An atheist, by his mere existence challenges the religious persons beliefs, and more than challenge them the way a follower of a different religion would, they reject them. Simply saying that one is an atheist is a complete denial and rejection of a religious person's deepest and most cherished beliefs. But as those beliefs cannot be substantiated and must, by definition, be upheld purely on faith, the existence of a person happily rejecting them with no obvious consequences calls into question, to at least some degree, those beliefs in the believers mind. Many religious people also find their beliefs to be self-evident, that god exists, in whatever form, is so deeply ingrained in their psyches that if a person is denying it, they must have some sort of ulterior motive, since what they are denying is so patently obvious to the believer. this makes the atheist seem to be a threat, just look at how some religious types on these boards throw "atheist" out as if it were a pejorative term.

2. Atheism is based on rationality, while religion is based on emotion, so it also follows that atheists would not consider religious beliefs to be a valid measure of a person's trustworthiness, since there is no rational basis for doing so. The religious person, being less conditioned to rely on reason and more conditioned to rely on emotion, is more likely to fall prey to an Us & Them mentality, its an instinctual tribal reaction among humans to do so, to identify with the similar and to distrust the different. It requires reason and conscious thought/effort to override such instinctual urges, which makes such overriding less likely among believers in this specific context, as it deals with an area <religious belief> where the believer has already discarded reason and rationality as a basis for making judgments.

Just my thoughts on it at the moment.





I think you pretty well summed it up.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 4:52:00 PM   
MissAsylum


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I pretty much agree with Heather.

Thinking like some of the more religious folks i know (don't take this as what i believe), i'll break down the thought process in simplistic terms.


1. A god or higher spiritual being shapes a believer's moral being.
2. Atheists do not believe in a god or higher spiritual being.
3. Atheists do not have morals
4. Atheists are not trustworthy.



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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 5:10:31 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 12/2/2011 5:30:16 PM >


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 5:29:49 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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Here is the actual article abstract.  Unfortunately, for the full article you have to buy it, for $11.95.

Do you believe in atheists? Distrust is central to anti-atheist prejudice. By Gervais, Will M.; Shariff, Azim F.; Norenzayan, Ara Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol 101(6), Dec 2011, 1189-1206. Abstract Recent polls indicate that atheists are among the least liked people in areas with religious majorities (i.e., in most of the world). The sociofunctional approach to prejudice, combined with a cultural evolutionary theory of religion's effects on cooperation, suggest that anti-atheist prejudice is particularly motivated by distrust. Consistent with this theoretical framework, a broad sample of American adults revealed that distrust characterized anti-atheist prejudice but not anti-gay prejudice (Study 1). In subsequent studies, distrust of atheists generalized even to participants from more liberal, secular populations. A description of a criminally untrustworthy individual was seen as comparably representative of atheists and rapists but not representative of Christians, Muslims, Jewish people, feminists, or homosexuals (Studies 2–4). In addition, results were consistent with the hypothesis that the relationship between belief in God and atheist distrust was fully mediated by the belief that people behave better if they feel that God is watching them (Study 4). In implicit measures, participants strongly associated atheists with distrust, and belief in God was more strongly associated with implicit distrust of atheists than with implicit dislike of atheists (Study 5). Finally, atheists were systematically socially excluded only in high-trust domains; belief in God, but not authoritarianism, predicted this discriminatory decision-making against atheists in high trust domains (Study 6). These 6 studies are the first to systematically explore the social psychological underpinnings of anti-atheist prejudice, and converge to indicate the centrality of distrust in this phenomenon. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2011 APA, all rights reserved)


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 5:32:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Simply saying that one is an atheist is a complete denial and rejection of a religious person's deepest and most cherished beliefs. But as those beliefs cannot be substantiated and must, by definition, be upheld purely on faith, the existence of a person happily rejecting them with no obvious consequences calls into question, to at least some degree, those beliefs in the believers mind.

This does seem to be a view that has some currency among atheists. But I suspect that it underestimates both the strength and the nature of Christian faith. Christians believe that everyone has a divine and redeemable soul, toward which their hearts can be turned. They are not frightened by the disbelief of others. It is to be expected.

Their faith, however, also includes belief in an Enemy of God, a Deceiver, who willfully rejects God's laws and strives against his Kingdom. Confronted with those who willfully reject and even deliberately attack belief in God, they see the hand of that Deceiver at work. If you want convincing, just listen to any evangelical for five minutes.

It would be better for atheists to understand what they're up against than to flatter themselves with the conceit that Christians are afraid of atheism because its rationality threatens their beliefs. Aggressive in-your-face atheism only confirms for them that there really is an Enemy at work, and strengthens their resolve to defeat his plans.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/2/2011 6:14:47 PM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 5:33:46 PM   
tazzygirl


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Thank you.

In a February 2007 Gallup poll, nearly 95% of
respondents said that they would vote for a qualified Black
candidate from their own political party and were supportive
of a wide range of potential candidates including female,
Jewish, and Mormon politicians. Only one group could not
garner a majority vote: atheists.
In a September 2006 Gallup
poll, 84% of Americans reported that the country is not ready
for an atheist president

Only one group?

Could anyone tell me which survey that bolded section goes with?


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 5:56:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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Oh wow.. never mind.

You guys discuss all you want.

Just... wow.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/2/2011 8:15:58 PM   
tweakabelle


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I'm surprised (a little) and saddened (a lot) by this report. Particularly the news that the figures seem replicated in Canada. I had the impression that religiosity was far less important in Canada than the US. I can't imagine these figures being replicated here in Australia or most of Western Europe. This is especially so given the number of recent scandals with religious figures at their centre, the Catholic Church's appalling record re paedophile priests being possibly the most notorious.

There has been a number of sensible suggestions for this phenomenon above. The fear/ignorance factor has been mentioned as one potential explanation.

I wonder to what extent atheism is seen as amorality ie that lack of religious belief equates to lack of any moral or ethical standards at all. To some extent, this may be a hangover from the days when "atheistic Godless Communism" was public enemy #1. Also I wonder about the media coverage of atheism/atheists there. It's clear that most of the respondents are unfamiliar with the fact that most atheists live their lives according to law and ethical standards/systems. Is it the case that most atheists are reluctant to get up in public and present themselves as atheists, that there are no atheist 'role models'? Kirata's analysis may offer some useful insights here.*

Whatever the case, these figures make it clear that American atheists need to think about how their beliefs are being reported/presented (or possibly misrepresented) in Nth America. Steps need to be taken to correct an obviously distorted understanding of freethinking.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/2/2011 8:29:50 PM >


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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 5:52:39 AM   
vincentML


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From the Study:
quote:

“The sociofunctional approach to prejudice, combined with a cultural evolutionary theory of religion's effects on cooperation, suggest that anti-atheist prejudice is particularly motivated by distrust.”


It seems clear to me that the focus [perhaps unintended] of the Study is on illuminating the prejudice of the religious participants, or at least the latest prejudice in fashion. Dictionary definitions of prejudice include: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, which says much more about the study participants than it does about atheists.

From Kirata:
quote:

It would be better for atheists to understand what they're up against than to flatter themselves with the conceit that Christians are afraid of atheism because its rationality threatens their beliefs. Aggressive in-your-face atheism only confirms for them that there really is an Enemy at work, and strengthens their resolve to defeat his plans.


Similar suggestions were made in recent history to Blacks and Gays. If only they would be nice and not upset the good people. And let’s try to understand their bigotry. Well, you know what that garnered: separate drinking fountains and Stonewall Tavern police raids. Blacks responded with food counter sit-ins, the March on Selma, etc., while Gays responded with “We’re here and we’re queer!” and Gay Pride Parades. I am not advocating the same for freethinkers. I am simply drawing a parallel and suggesting the futility inherent in the make-nice approach. Of late, four or five authors have written in-your-face books stating their case for atheism. Did they deepen and reinforce the prejudice? Perhaps so. Did the study participants read these authors? Probably not and it doesn’t matter. Prejudice is unreasoning. Atheists surely understand what they are up against and it is the same old ugly boogyman mentality that was visited against Blacks and Gays, as well as European Jews I should add. We are here and will remain vocal despite the prejudices.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/3/2011 6:19:33 AM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 6:10:14 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I wonder to what extent atheism is seen as amorality ie that lack of religious belief equates to lack of any moral or ethical standards at all. To some extent, this may be a hangover from the days when "atheistic Godless Communism" was public enemy #1.


You make a good point here. That expression is still in vogue among some fundamentalists preachers and is heard from time to time.

quote:

Also I wonder about the media coverage of atheism/atheists there.


Very little really. Nearly nada, zilch, zero. Mostly the media presents us with discussions of the religious beliefs of our political candidates. Additionally, in a most negative manner "Darwinism" and "Evolution" have become code words for atheism. You may be aware of the on going attempt of the religious to push the study of Evolution out of our public schools and replace it with Intelligent Design, claiming as a first foot in the door that ID is a scientific theory that should be taught as an alternative to Evolution. I read somewhere that textbook publishers eager for the lucrative market in Texas have begun to quietly drop the words Darwin and Evolution from their pages.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/3/2011 6:21:33 AM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 6:10:46 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Would a hardcore Democrat hire a Republican underling (assuming the manager could ask and expect an answer....LEGALLY)? Or would they hire another fellow Democrat?


I would hire a more qualified Rep over a less qualified Dem. If qualifications were equal, I'd hire the Dem.


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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 6:11:48 AM   
kalikshama


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Google Queen found full article: http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~will/Gervais%20et%20al-%20Atheist%20Distrust.pdf

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 6:12:56 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

Gervais and his colleagues conducted a series of six studies on a group of 350 American adults and a group 420 UBC students.

Ah, ok, USA. Yes, in the USA yes, the religious believers tend to be specially intolerant and fanatic. I think it has something to do with the Evangelical movements, but I couldn't say if it is a cause or an effect.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 12/3/2011 6:16:59 AM >


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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:06:47 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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Thank you tazzy

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:24:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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~chuckles

You are quite welcome.

Im finding all this rather amusing.

Do, please, continue

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 3:21:02 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Prejudice is unreasoning.

Prejudice reasons from false premises, which is a very different matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Of late, four or five authors have written in-your-face books stating their case for atheism. Did they deepen and reinforce the prejudice? Perhaps

Well that isn't very productive, now is it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

the futility inherent in the make-nice approach.

But nobody has suggested such, simply that it's important to target the operative false premise.

In my view, for example, a poster of a family with the caption, "We're not Satan's minions, we're your neighbors," would do less to offend and more to puncture the underlying rationalization than wholesale attacks on belief that characterize people as gullible idiots.

Neil deGrasse Tyson made a similar point to Richard Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

K.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 3:27:52 PM   
tazzygirl


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I hesitated to point that out, Master Kirata. Thank you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 40
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