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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 7:50:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

For mine, it's clearly a distorted image of freethinkers that can must be built on a very shaky base, one that ought to be addressed immediately


I agree, tweak, and I mentioned as much earlier.

quote:

If it is is agreed that fear (for whatever reason) and ignorance are major factors


But, a question for you. How long would you listen to someone who insisted your belief system was there only because you were ignorant?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/3/2011 7:51:22 PM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 7:53:12 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

So? How is that relevant?


Its very relevant if your argument is that these people cannot divorce themselves from their emotions and come to the same conclusion that you have, therefore making them ignorant, irrational, stupid, blind, ect ect ect.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:01:49 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

wouldn't it be more productive to examine how this impression can be turned around?
I suppose, if one cared if the impression is turned around or not. I don't.

If you do care, and it seems you do, then I suggest you stop referring to atheists as "freethinkers". That's a term designed to belittle theists and you use it specifically for that reason, so its a little hard to take you seriously when you say you want to alter that impression.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:03:43 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Status: offline 		That isn't my argument at all. I never said anything even vaguely like that.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:07:32 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

tazzygirl
quote:


If it is is agreed that fear (for whatever reason) and ignorance are major factors


But, a question for you. How long would you listen to someone who insisted your belief system was there only because you were ignorant?


Fear and ignorance underlie many social issues - racism is one well known case. No one suggests that we ought to stop opposing racism for fear of touching sensitivity over racist's ignorance do they?

The point of my question was to get people to focus on realistic methods for freethinkers to use in correct misconceptions about their beliefs. Telling people to their face that they're ignorant/stupid/muddled is not, in my observation, a productive way of going about this kind of task.

I take your point that many freethinkers, expecially the 'scientism' school of Dawkins et al have been guilty of condescension in the past, of talking down to believers. I'm prolly as guilty as anyone of this.

I was hoping for more helpful ideas and strategies to replace this counter productive approach. If this was unclear, then apologies for my clumsy formulation.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/3/2011 8:09:10 PM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:19:32 PM   
Termyn8or


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Everything is relevant - to some. To the religious, if you smoke you might be the devil. If you drink you might be the devil. If you blaspheme you might be the devil. If you look upon naked Women you might be the devil.

Ago, I had a political discussion with my boss, it was about reelecting the shrub. I didn't like the asshole who was running against him but reelecting Bush told the Arab world to go fuck off. But his preacher said the democrat was a baby killer because he supported choice (abortion). You saw the results of that.

Bush killed more babies than Hitler probably. Certainly more than BinLaden I bet.

T^T

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:24:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Fear and ignorance underlie many social issues - racism is one well known case. No one suggests that we ought to stop opposing racism for fear of touching sensitivity over racist's ignorance do they?


Not at all. But that wasnt how they began to combat that issue either.

The video Master Kirata supplied gives a good example of that. Its education, not lecturing. Destroying the myths, such as the one of trustworthiness wont be accomplished by reminding people they are irrational.

Trust, for religions, is an emotional response. Too bad many dont remember the "trust" they had in Baker. And that could be a very good starting point. Not every christian, or god believing person, is trust worthy. Why should an atheist be any different? If a man of "god" can break the rules and sin, why cant a man who isnt of god be worthy of trust and friendship?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:45:06 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Fear and ignorance underlie many social issues - racism is one well known case. No one suggests that we ought to stop opposing racism for fear of touching sensitivity over racist's ignorance do they?


Not at all. But that wasnt how they began to combat that issue either.

The video Master Kirata supplied gives a good example of that. Its education, not lecturing. Destroying the myths, such as the one of trustworthiness wont be accomplished by reminding people they are irrational.

Trust, for religions, is an emotional response. Too bad many dont remember the "trust" they had in Baker. And that could be a very good starting point. Not every christian, or god believing person, is trust worthy. Why should an atheist be any different? If a man of "god" can break the rules and sin, why cant a man who isnt of god be worthy of trust and friendship?

Thanks for your suggestions. To me they're eminently sensible ones.

Another idea that people might like to consider is to emphasise some of the (possibly surprising) points of agreement rather than the disagreements.

For example, freethinkers must take responsibility for their choices and actions themselves. Believers too have to make choices for which they are responsible and accountable (to a higher power). In other words, for ethical people, the only difference is that freethinkers are accountable to themselves and the people around them for their choices. Both freethinkers and believers have self-responsibility and accountability the law.

As you point out, being a freethinker doesn't mean one is unaccountable any more than being a Christian guarantees ethical choices and behaviour. Perhaps emphasising such commonalities might turn around some of the distrust believers feel towards freethinkers. Let's hope so!

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:47:31 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

The point of my question was to get people to focus on realistic methods for freethinkers to use in correct misconceptions about their beliefs. Telling people to their face that they're ignorant/stupid/muddled is not, in my observation, a productive way of going about this kind of task.


Problem here is associating the word "freethinkers" with the antithesis of the religious. That because the antithesis of that would be notfreethinkers, and nobody wants to be called that, whether it is true or not. Sometimes it is, other times it's not. I have seen "them" start praying when presented with a cogent argument, and I mean in person.

They are taught not to engge in certain kinds of discussions, topics to be avoided as well as canned opinions on some. But since they are free to think that way, carefully guided like that, it technically is free thinking. Doesn't matter if the ever reach the emotional maturity of an Odinist 10 year old a thousand years ago. They have the POWER ! FAITH IS POWER !

God is in them, therefore they are God and could smite you down, but don't because God would be pissed in the morning. Yeah right. If nothing else, they know every word God says and you can't hear any of it so you have to listen to them.

I was born at about 8 AM, but not today.

Freethinkin' ? You betcha. But I also addressed the creation/evolution thing at about age five. I also tried Christianity for a time, and freethinkin' wasn't the problem, it was something else.

But there is a world of difference here. I have never humbled myself. And the odds of me doing that to a being that is made up in some numbskull's mind 7,500 years ago are slim and none. Slim is on a midnight train to Georgia.

I understand the different backgrounds of people and I can see that different things make sense to different people. That's the problem.

T^T

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 8:50:30 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

If you do care, and it seems you do, then I suggest you stop referring to atheists as "freethinkers". That's a term designed to belittle theists and you use it specifically for that reason, so its a little hard to take you seriously when you say you want to alter that impression.


Do you mean like the way "queer" or "slut" were terms used to denigrate people in the past? Why not reclaim the term and insist on positive interpretations of it? This strategy has proved very successful for other groups. IIRC, you were quite positive about 'slutwalks' not too long ago.

Is there a particular reason why it won't work in this instance?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/3/2011 8:52:21 PM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:06:54 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Status: offline 		Yes. When women take back the word slut, or we gays take back the word queer, it is completely unrelated to you calling yourself a freethinker. When you call atheists freethinkers you are specifically saying that theists are not.

That isn't the case at all, take Cheri, for example, she is a free thinker. She is enough of a freethinker that she rejected the religion she was raised in because it did not reflect the reality around her. She was also enough of a freethinker to resist the enticements offered by atheists, yourself included,  to reject the concept of deity altogether and has sought out a religious belief that she finds she can reconcile with what she sees around her.

See, free thinking does not equate with atheism, only with finding your own path. Yet you insist on calling atheists "freethinkers" rather than "atheists", because by doing so you can insult theists with plausible deniability. So claiming you want to bridge the gap while insulting those you are ostensibly reaching out to is pretty darn hypocritical.

<Edit: Its also pretty cowardly too>

You are also insulting our intelligence by playing all innocent and trying to equate it with the slut/queer issues, to which it is not even vaguely related. In those cases, we were the ones being insulted and so claimed the words being used to insult us. In this case, you are the one doing the insulting. You're the queer baiter, you're the one sneering at the woman for being "just a slut".

< Message edited by HeatherMcLeather -- 12/3/2011 9:09:08 PM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:07:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

some numbskull's mind


quote:

emotional maturity of an Odinist 10 year old


I would have more problems with you over those phrases than you considering someone being a notfreethinker.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:08:20 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

See, free thinking does not equate with atheism, only with finding your own path.


Yet someone who has found their own path with religion cannot be a free thinker?

That puzzles me.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:13:15 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

Yet someone who has found their own path with religion cannot be a free thinker?
A lot of atheists, like tweak, seem to think that. Personally, I think that is because atheism has become their dogma, and they have allowed themselves to become emotionally invested in "proving" that atheism is right, or at least more right.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:24:28 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		To be honest, I dont think either is "more" right than the other. Its just discrimination... from both sides.. against the other side.

I think, for religion, they have forgotten that "god" gave man the choice to believe or not.

I think, for the non religious, they have forgotten that the freedom to not worship also means the freedom to worship. And that their right to not believe is just as constitutional as the others' rights to believe.

I certainly see both sides points.

Atheists are tired of having religion shoved into their faces. Public buildings should not be built in this day and age with the word "God" on the side.

But I think its just as equally wrong to take someone to task for something that is equally balanced. A nativity scene, in a town with adult book stores, bars and strip joints, isnt a town that is shoving "religion" into people's faces.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:35:22 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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Status: offline 		As far as I'm concerned, all that stuff is just silly. I mean surely people have more important things to worry about.

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:43:43 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Yes. When women take back the word slut, or we gays take back the word queer, it is completely unrelated to you calling yourself a freethinker. When you call atheists freethinkers you are specifically saying that theists are not.

That isn't the case at all, take Cheri, for example, she is a free thinker. She is enough of a freethinker that she rejected the religion she was raised in because it did not reflect the reality around her. She was also enough of a freethinker to resist the enticements offered by atheists, yourself included,  to reject the concept of deity altogether and has sought out a religious belief that she finds she can reconcile with what she sees around her.

See, free thinking does not equate with atheism, only with finding your own path. Yet you insist on calling atheists "freethinkers" rather than "atheists", because by doing so you can insult theists with plausible deniability. So claiming you want to bridge the gap while insulting those you are ostensibly reaching out to is pretty darn hypocritical.

<Edit: Its also pretty cowardly too>

You are also insulting our intelligence by playing all innocent and trying to equate it with the slut/queer issues, to which it is not even vaguely related. In those cases, we were the ones being insulted and so claimed the words being used to insult us. In this case, you are the one doing the insulting. You're the queer baiter, you're the one sneering at the woman for being "just a slut".



What a mish-mash of assumption, gibberish and gross ignorance.

For one thing I have never said I'm an atheist - in fact, I stated unequivocally many times on these boards that I'm NOT an 'atheist".

Had you bothered to ask me what I meant by the term freethinker instead of making the wild assumptions you have, you'd have found out that I don't equate it with atheism.

Nor do you own any of terms slut/queer/woman, or get to define who is/isn't a slut/queer/woman and most certainly don't possess any mandate to speak on behalf of any or all the above. And as you clearly don't possess an iota of a clue about who I am or how I live or who I fuck, who my partner(s) might be, how we fuck or how often we fuck, you don't have any business, let alone right, daring to label me in any way. The attempt to insinuate yourself into a position of power here is a monstrous arrogance built on a foundation of almost total ignorance.

I could go on shredding the offensive nonsense you posted but what's the point? For someone who claims that they don't "care" (post #83) about the issues in the OP, you do have an awful lot to say. Such a shame so little of it is coherent.

If and when you have something constructive truthful and relevant to say, I may respond. Until you do ..... enjoy your life.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/3/2011 9:54:00 PM >

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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:48:23 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		You would think. The man told me about the Catholic University in DC that is being sued on behalf of muslim students for having crosses on the walls, but no place set aside for muslims to pray that had no crosses in them.

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/muslims-want-catholic-school-to-provide-room-without-crosses.html

I think these people have way too much time on their hands.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 9:49:18 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
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Status: offline 		What a mish-mash of assumption, gibberish, defensiveness, gross ignorance and inability to comprehend the written word. So just what planet are you from?

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/3/2011 10:29:10 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

The point of my question was to get people to focus on realistic methods for freethinkers to use in correct misconceptions about their beliefs. Telling people to their face that they're ignorant/stupid/muddled is not, in my observation, a productive way of going about this kind of task.


Problem here is associating the word "freethinkers" with the antithesis of the religious. That because the antithesis of that would be notfreethinkers, and nobody wants to be called that, whether it is true or not. Sometimes it is, other times it's not. I have seen "them" start praying when presented with a cogent argument, and I mean in person.

They are taught not to engge in certain kinds of discussions, topics to be avoided as well as canned opinions on some. [.....]

I understand the different backgrounds of people and I can see that different things make sense to different people. That's the problem.

T^T


Given the precious reactions you describe some believers exhibiting to any kind of dissent, I wonder if any term won't be challenging to them. It does seem to me to be sensible to try to re-frame the terms of the debate as one strategy to try to turn perceptions around. There's no reason why it should be a sole strategy - in fact, it would be better to run several different strategies. After all "different things make sense to different people".

Personally I like the term 'freethinker' as an umbrella term to cover all non- or a-theistic belief systems. It's positive, flexible, un-categorical and sits nicely with the diversity of positions that are sometimes inaccurately lumped together as 'atheism'. It does challenge the dogmatism of religious belief systems pretty directly. There may be a better term available. If so I'm unfamiliar with it.

I most emphatically agree that the core of the problem freethinkers face is that "different things make sense to different people". Trying to find a single method of meeting this resistance isn't likely to succeed IMHO. To me the flexibility that 'freethinking implies might be a good way of responding to this issue. And that flexibility of response is possibly far more important than the particular term or terms used.




< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/3/2011 10:31:10 PM >

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