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RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 7:20:21 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Well, I think we're more trusted than Congress now, that's something right?

Sarcasm noted. The link below is to a short 7-minute video that barely scratches the surface but which nonetheless merits reflection by anyone who doesn't fully appreciate how ugly and destructive are the attitudes that Atheists confront in our society:

Anything But Atheism

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 121

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 8:17:20 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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From: The dog house
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I guess I should be more worried when people call me an atheist, eh?

One of the things that struck me was that the people complained that they were called "devil worshippers" and told that they and their children were "going to Hell." If you don't believe in the devil or Hell, then why would that bother you?

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 122

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 8:39:34 AM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
One of the things that struck me was that the people complained that they were called "devil worshippers" and told that they and their children were "going to Hell." If you don't believe in the devil or Hell, then why would that bother you?

I can think of a number of reasons why I'm against people putting out completely fallacious propaganda about me in order to damage my reputation.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 123

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 8:43:29 AM

HeatherMcLeather

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What's fallacious about somebody saying you're going to Hell? You saying you aren't going to hell is no less fallacious than them saying you are. According to their beliefs you are, according to yours you aren't, what's the big deal?

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 124

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 8:55:38 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

Sarcasm noted. The link below is to a short 7-minute video that barely scratches the surface but which nonetheless merits reflection by anyone who doesn't fully appreciate how ugly and destructive are the attitudes that Atheists confront in our society:

Anything But Atheism

K.

Very on point, thanks.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 125

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 9:40:39 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Your premise is incorrect, I think. They are using Faith. We had this discussion quite awhile ago. Have you forgotten, tazzy?

Not everyone grows up in the faith. Not everyone was "born" into their religions.

And just because we had a discussion doesnt mean we came to an amiable end.

quote:

Some say "Faith is a higher form of knowing than reasoning."

Some being the operative word. Are you willing to go on record as saying all religious people are irrational beings?

quote:

Kierkegaard said the rule of faith is necessarily antithetical to the canons of reason, since objectifying God or attempting to explain Him in strictly rational terms weakens the radical decision to walk by faith, not by sight." So please, let's not pretend we have a conflict between two different forms of reason or that the religious are reasoning from a different set of premises

A man who argued with himself in writing. ok.

He also assumed that people were "born" a religious being. What of those who convert? What of those who had no faith, yet decided they should?

quote:

two different forms of reason

There are far more than just two different forms of reason.

quote:

the religious are reasoning from a different set of premises

Since I never said their set of premises were different, the onus is on you to prove they are.

Your assumptions make sense.... until you take those who are not born into those religions into consideration. So, please, lets not pretend those people do not exist and dismiss them out of hand because they do not fit into your image of what a "irrational" religious person should be.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/4/2011 9:41:45 AM >

_____________________________

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Post #: 126

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 10:01:37 AM

GotSteel

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I think you can probably see my issue with this sort of talk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lhdYaHx3Qnk

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 127

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 12:35:37 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Since I never said their set of premises were different, the onus is on you to prove they are.

I stand corrected. It was Kirata who made that statement at #39 Sorry about that.

You said there are five different forms of reasoning. Did I miss your post where you applied at least one of those forms to religious belief?

quote:

Your assumptions make sense.... until you take those who are not born into those religions into consideration. So, please, lets not pretend those people do not exist and dismiss them out of hand because they do not fit into your image of what a "irrational" religious person should be.

Several points here:
(1) it is not my image of what an "irrational" religious person should be. It was the author of the study who wrote: "anti-atheist prejudice is particularly motivated by distrust." A dictionary definition of prejudice includes this: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature. By using the premise of prejudice the author assigns "unreasonable" to the participants in the sturdy. So, debate with him about it if you disagree.

(2) you evoke a subset of the religious who were not born into the religion as if that makes a difference to their degree of Faith. You provide no evidence that they arrived at their belief by reason of some kind. I do not pretend they do not exist nor do I dismiss them out of hand. That assertion simply detracts from my main point that religion is based upon Faith and that has been and remains a central tenet of the Abrahamic religions.

(3) your dismissal of Kierkegaard because he argued with himself and you are not happy with his conclusion is silly. Do you dismiss Paul because he also believed the religious are born in faith? In fact he believed their faith is preordained, did he not?

quote:

He also assumed that people were "born" a religious being. What of those who convert? What of those who had no faith, yet decided they should?

Are you saying with certainty then that conversion does not involve emotion and faith for all?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/4/2011 12:48:25 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 128

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 1:38:16 PM

tazzygirl

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Several points here:
(1) it is not my image of what an "irrational" religious person should be. It was the author of the study who wrote: "anti-atheist prejudice is particularly motivated by distrust." A dictionary definition of prejudice includes this: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature. By using the premise of prejudice the author assigns "unreasonable" to the participants in the sturdy. So, debate with him about it if you disagree.

I am trying very, very hard not to mention my thoughts of this study. As a result, I will not answer this, except to say I do not agree with how the study was conducted.

(2) you evoke a subset of the religious who were not born into the religion as if that makes a difference to their degree of Faith. You provide no evidence that they arrived at their belief by reason of some kind. I do not pretend they do not exist nor do I dismiss them out of hand. That assertion simply detracts from my main point that religion is based upon Faith and that has been and remains a central tenet of the Abrahamic religions.

No where did I mention their "degree" of faith. Your assumption was that people are religious due to a form of blind faith. And its my contention that those who come to that decision, instead of growing up in that decision, did not enter "blindly".

quote:

(3) your dismissal of Kierkegaard because he argued with himself and you are not happy with his conclusion is silly. Do you dismiss Paul because he also believed the religious are born in faith? In fact he believed their faith is preordained, did he not?

And I have reminded you that not everyone is "born in faith" making use of his ideology a moot point.

quote:

Are you saying with certainty then that conversion does not involve emotion and faith for all?

You sure like to twist what people say. No, what I am saying is that your assertion that it is required for all is a presumption on your part. While, in the same thought, you are backhanding these people with the notion that, up until they decide to become part of the faithful, they were considered logical beings... now suddenly... they are illogical.

I will ask you, do you have an affective disorder?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 129

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 1:56:47 PM

SweetCheri

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quote:

No, what I am saying is that your assertion that it is required for all is a presumption on your part.

Faith is required for any and all religious beliefs, as there simply is no proof, one must take it on faith. This has nothing to do with if one was raised in a particular religion or not. I was raised Catholic and my belief was based on faith. I am no longer Catholic because I lost my faith with that religion. I am now in the process of converting to Zoroastrianism because I have faith in that teaching. Religion MUST be faith based, there is nothing else upon which to base it, that's why the word faith is often a synonym for religion.

This isn't to say that reason can't be a part of one's religious musings and decision making process, but in the end it comes down to what you believe, what you have faith in. Reason and logic can be a part of the reason why you have faith in a particular teaching, but, one always has to make that bold leap into the unknown and say "I have no reason to do so, but I believe this..." And yes, Heather is right, it is irrational, and yes I am deliberately being irrational, otherwise I could not have faith. I have suspended reason, to use her phrase, because it is required when considering the divine.

Reason and rational thought are rooted in this world and are required to deal with this world, but God is not of this world, so reason is not the best tool to use when considering these sorts of questions.

The believer believes first, then rationalizes that belief.

_____________________________

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CG/HH

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 130

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 1:57:06 PM

BanthaSamantha

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http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/10/us/gay-man-beaten-and-left-for-dead-2-are-charged.html?ref=matthewshepard

If only the GLBT community had better PR...

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 131

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 3:54:55 PM

HeatherMcLeather

Posts: 2559
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From: The dog house
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Nope. A couple of idiots blathering idiocies. What's your issue with that?

I think you're a little too sensitive on this issue. Personally I'd say that's a great recruiting video for atheism, after all, if theists are that stupid I wouldn't want to associate with them in any way.?

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 132

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 3:57:04 PM

HeatherMcLeather

Posts: 2559
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From: The dog house
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quote:

You sure like to twist what people say.

Psst. You're talking to yourself again tazzy.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 133

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 5:19:03 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

You sure like to twist what people say.
Psst. You're talking to yourself again tazzy.

Pst.. better than listening to you talk.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 134

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 5:23:04 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetCheri

quote:

No, what I am saying is that your assertion that it is required for all is a presumption on your part.
Faith is required for any and all religious beliefs, as there simply is no proof, one must take it on faith. This has nothing to do with if one was raised in a particular religion or not. I was raised Catholic and my belief was based on faith. I am no longer Catholic because I lost my faith with that religion. I am now in the process of converting to Zoroastrianism because I have faith in that teaching. Religion MUST be faith based, there is nothing else upon which to base it, that's why the word faith is often a synonym for religion.

This isn't to say that reason can't be a part of one's religious musings and decision making process, but in the end it comes down to what you believe, what you have faith in. Reason and logic can be a part of the reason why you have faith in a particular teaching, but, one always has to make that bold leap into the unknown and say "I have no reason to do so, but I believe this..." And yes, Heather is right, it is irrational, and yes I am deliberately being irrational, otherwise I could not have faith. I have suspended reason, to use her phrase, because it is required when considering the divine.

Reason and rational thought are rooted in this world and are required to deal with this world, but God is not of this world, so reason is not the best tool to use when considering these sorts of questions.

The believer believes first, then rationalizes that belief.

You will note I never said anyone who was religious didnt base their religion upon faith.

The assumption many have is that someone who decides to change religions.. or someone who is new to a religion... is basing that strictly upon faith is misleading.

Neither decision is taken lightly.

Neither decision is taken without much thought.

And I keep coming back to the same question that no one wants to answer.

How do you "divorce" yourself from emotions to come up with the "irrational" decision many want this choice out to be?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SweetCheri)

Post #: 135

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 5:26:07 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

And yes, Heather is right, it is irrational, and yes I am deliberately being irrational, otherwise I could not have faith. I have suspended reason, to use her phrase, because it is required when considering the divine.

According to Heather, someone is irrational because they are basing their decisions on emotions.

Care to give me some examples of people basing decisions solely upon logic, with no emotional aspect whatsoever?

It cannot be done.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SweetCheri)

Post #: 136

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 6:12:21 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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Here is a link and an abstract of a study by the same person who did the study discussed in the OP. The results of this study seem to show that the more atheists a believer is exposed to, the less likely the believer will be prejudiced against atheists. In other words, familiarity breeds, not contempt, but tolerance.
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/37/4/543.abstractFinding the Faithless: Perceived Atheist Prevalence Reduces Anti-Atheist Prejudice Will M. GervaisUniversity of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC, Canada, [email protected] Abstract Although prejudice is typically positively related to relative outgroup size, four studies found converging evidence that perceived atheist prevalence reduces anti-atheist prejudice. Study 1 demonstrated that anti-atheist prejudice among religious believers is reduced in countries in which atheists are especially prevalent. Study 2 demonstrated that perceived atheist prevalence is negatively associated with anti-atheist prejudice. Study 3 demonstrated a causal relationship: Reminders of atheist prevalence reduced explicit distrust of atheists. These results appeared distinct from intergroup contact effects. Study 4 demonstrated that prevalence information decreased implicit atheist distrust. The latter two experiments provide the first evidence that mere prevalence information can reduce prejudice against any outgroup. These findings offer insights about anti-atheist prejudice, a poorly understood phenomenon. Furthermore, they suggest both novel directions for future prejudice research and potential interventions that could reduce a variety of prejudices.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 137

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 6:31:45 PM

Iamsemisweet

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This thread has made me realize some things, mainly about how naive I have been. The video that was posted by Kirata was particularly eye opening. The truth is, I haven't spent much time with people who are religious for years. All my friends are either nonbelievers or are apathetic to the whole thing. Although I converted to Mormonism for a while when I was a teenager, my family was completely nonreligious. While there are a lot of religious people in the Northwest, I was never exposed to any prejudice for being an atheist, at least that I was aware of. The only religious people I have been exposed to on a regular basis were business partners, one a Mormon and the other a really annoying Catholic. The Mormon seems pretty tolerant, but the Catholic, who worked as an estate planning attorney, would not prepare health care directives for her clients if the client wanted to include provisions about withholding nutrition or life support. Still, I can't say I felt she treated me badly because I was not religious
Recently, though, I have reconnected with a large number of people that I went to high school with, and I am shocked at how religious they, as a group, are. I remember being the religious one when we were all in high school, but now a large number of them are very fundamentalist Christians. They have posted some fairly bigoted statements on my wall lately, mainly having to do with how nonchristians were ruining Christmas. I responded to one of them and mentioned I was an atheist. A lot of people unfriended me, and now I understand why. I supposed I will be getting a chilly reception at my high school reunion next year because of it. Too bad.
Another example of intolerance toward atheists happened recently when I posted about my dad's funeral, and I commented on the quirks of planning a funeral for an atheist, which he was. Some chick I went to high school with had the nerve to send me an email saying my dad was no doubt no longer an atheist since he had met Jesus. Pissed me off. Can you imagine someone doing that if I had, for example, posted that my dad was Jewish?
Since the only religious people I come into contact with seem pretty intolerant, except for my Mormon partner, I guess I should be more careful about announcing my atheism, even if the tolerant Northwest.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 138

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 6:34:13 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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I think they probably were bothered by it because of the malevolent intent of the people who were saying these things to them. I would be bothered if someone said either of those things to me, not because I believe I am going to hell, but because of the hostile intent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I guess I should be more worried when people call me an atheist, eh?

One of the things that struck me was that the people complained that they were called "devil worshippers" and told that they and their children were "going to Hell." If you don't believe in the devil or Hell, then why would that bother you?

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

Post #: 139

RE: Atheists have a PR problem - 12/4/2011 6:35:53 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I pretty much agree with Heather.

Thinking like some of the more religious folks i know (don't take this as what i believe), i'll break down the thought process in simplistic terms.

1. A god or higher spiritual being shapes a believer's moral being.
2. Atheists do not believe in a god or higher spiritual being.
3. Atheists do not have morals
4. Atheists are not trustworthy.

I can see where an Atheist could make the opposite argument.

A Deist obtains any sense of morality from an external source, and therefore, lacks an internally developed morality. A Deist is de facto amoral.

Deists generally believe that faith alone is all that is required to gain some sort of reward after death. Because they will be forgiven their transgressions by proclaiming their faith prior to death, they are able to act immorally and unethically. They will be absolved of their "sins".

Since it is impossible to know whether a Deist is acting in good faith or are acting in bad faith because they believe their sins will be forgiven, they are untrustworthy.

That's every bit as logical as the argument MissA hypothesized.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 12/4/2011 6:42:53 PM >

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(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 140

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