blacksword404
Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
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Sorry blacksword I'm with SMM on this one. I don't like where this is going ...
Democracy is a human right for everyone. Not up to you me or anyone else to decide who's entitled to it. Or who is a 'natural' democrat or not. It is a human right for every single living human being in this world.
tweak, I dont see a difference in what they are saying. Point it out to me?
tazzy,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. First I had connection issues, then time zones intervened.
At the outset SMM told us that his views were the result of talking to Russians that he could speak some Russian, had visited Russian many times – that he was reporting the opinions that Russians had told him. I read all his subsequent posts with this in mind. BS offered no such qualification. There’s no reason to view his statements as anything other than his opinion, and a clearly uninformed opinion at that.
I found SMM maintained a respectful tone at all times, not the case with BS, the tone of BS’s posts verged on arrogant to me. BS spoke from a position of assumed superiority.
SMM used qualifiers most of the time (eg "Most Russians") - in post #22 he lapsed a few times, which might be the reason why the difference is unclear to you - but at the very end of post #30 he clarified, "I am not saying that all Russians think this way. But a wide, wide sector of the population does.” This is the last thought he wants to leave with a reader. He doesn't want to be seen to generalise. For mine that is significant.
BS used no qualifiers. His posts consisted of negative racial stereotypes – pejorative generalisations about entire races – advanced from a position of assumed superiority. (“We’re” democratic … they’re too backwards for democracy …”they” need authoritarian leaders, it’s their “natural” state – this is negative racial stereotyping about 2 peoples – Russians and Afghanis.
SMM was telling us what he felt Russians had decided for themselves – BS was telling us what he had decided (was good enough) for Russians and Afghanis. SMM’s post #43 mirrored my reaction to BS’s comments perfectly. That is precisely what I thought, how I reacted.
Both were challenged over the content of their posts at some point. SMM clearly reviews what he had posted, felt the criticism unjustified. But he seemed to me to acknowledge his words could be misinterpreted when he spoke about using softer language in future in post #45. SMM used standards to judge he has set out elsewhere (and which are IMHO reasonable) and applied them to himself fairly - That is a sincere honest reaction, not the reaction of a racist.
BS reaction was one of blanket denial, even though it seemed to me the case against him was far far stronger. This reaction is consistent with someone who holds racist views. Had he considered the charge and fairly examined his posts for possible racism,, he would have at least found and acknowledged grounds for misinterpretation of his views. His point blank denial suggests to me that: (a) he doesn’t know what racism is or (b) he views are racist but he doesn’t want to acknowledge that publicly. Whether this is true or not mightn’t be as important as his reaction was, for mine, insincere and dishonest, not that of a non-racist.
All the way through BS applied double standards to “us” and “them” where “we” were superior, democratic and righteous, and “they” were inferior, needing authoritarian leaders, unable to make decisions for themselves, this is their “natural” state ie. they were incapable of rising to our superior standards. Tazzy, how would you feel if someone spoke about Native American Indians like that? That attitude reeks of racism to me.
Bearing all this in mind, it seems clear to me that SMM and BS are coming from two very different places. I should add that once or twice SMM and I have had some confusion over the use and meanings of particular words ('insulted" vs "humiliated", "thugs" etc ). I put this down to English not being SMM's first language, and where there is a doubt, I'm more inclined to give SMM the benefit of the doubt for that reason. BS, it seems to me, has no such excuse available.
If needed, there’s an awful lot more I could add to the above but I hope that the above is sufficient for you to see my point of view. After learning what I’ve learned in the last fortnight about the levels of racist hypocrisy practiced by a couple of posters here, I had no desire to go through all that again. So I chose to say what I said and walk away.
You assume way to much and attribute views to me I don't have. Where did I say our system here was superiour to any other countries? Your assumption. I gave you my opinion based on the history of russia and some of the ideas that an awful lot of them still hold. Perhaps you should understand that democracy is not freedom if you are not free to choose something other than democracy. Their country, their choice. Not ours.That's part of the problem other countries have with the U.S. We talk a good game about freedom but we only give them democracy as the only option. Perhaps next time we might ask them what they want.
To quote Smm "Russians do not care much about democracy. Democracy is a western concept for them, a "European" concept (and for many Russians, Russia is not Europe and Europe begins in Poland). They distrust it. Even the democrats have to put a lot of "but" and "when" and limits to their concept of democracy to be accepted.
Russia believes on strong leaders. It is presidential to the bone. They do like freedom and human rights, they are not so different in that way, but they do think that Someone Has To Rule." "This is not Europe"
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