911 questuon (Full Version)

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Termyn8or -> 911 questuon (5/28/2006 9:52:27 PM)

Here is T, me. It may sound strange but I do not want to whip up a controvery here, but I have a pretty pointed question.

I was going through my files and I ran across the Micheal Moore 911 movie. Just for the heck of it I started watching it again Now I don't want to discuss the issues Moore brings up in his presentation, but rather where thet heck did he get the footage ?

I don't care about the political right now, where did they get this supposed camera off stuff ? I see gwb among others getting primped and groomed. Where did he get that ?

Now I do know that film was politically biased and I take it with that grain of salt, but we are talking inside the Whitehouse before press conferences. Just how does one get that footage ?

I know that it is possible get lookalikes and do reenactments, but was Moore that adamant that he spent what it took to do so ?

To get lookalikes for world leaders, well that is scary. For some jounalist to get actual footage is equally scary, I don't know which is worse.

It is pounded into us all the time that looks are everything.

Are they ?

T



Wolf1020 -> RE: 911 questuon (5/28/2006 10:02:50 PM)

Micheal Moore is the biggist bone head making movies there is right now.  He twists and distorts anything possible to make his point, you need to take a lot more salt then a grain when watching his stuff.



Termyn8or -> RE: 911 questuon (5/28/2006 11:15:48 PM)

Yeah, well try the evening news.

Question is, is it a re-enactment or actual footage ?

Alex Jones's version is actually alot better, but then in come his conclusions, many of which with I do not agree. Moore seems to be talking down, as if to children, Jones didn't do that. Moore also has such a severe political slant it is hard to get much out of the movie unless you are a democrat.

Neither one of these movies moved me, what really moved me is available by email. I won't bring it here. I think they were both done pretty well, but the convert the producer's beliefs. If they would each STFU and let the veiwer reach his own conclusion, each movie would've been more effective.They do think outside the box, and do have some things to say, but they present it like "take it or leave it". Jones and Moore both shot themselves in the foot.

In Jones's movie I saw the info presented, and actually there is enough of it remembered, the way he put it together was amazing, but then he opens his piehole. Runs the movie into the ground at the end.

Now I know why it is not wise to hold the note on a business you sell. If you have a tenent you are about to evict, you do not offer him a land contract.

People lose for a reason. Jones and Moore did nothing, gwb is still occupying the Oval Office, and our troops are in Iraq. I don't really want to put either down, but the net result was NOTHING.

Big money will get more and more, but change will come when the common Man is weaned from those dollars. When there are again things that no amount of money can buy, then the world will start getting right.

The rich keep getting weaker and weaker, even though they get richer and richer. Their guards will keep them safe, until those guards realize that money is useless.

I got a Sony and a Buick, but not for sale, only for trade. I'll trade the Buick for a pickup truck, the Sony, I dunno, make me an offer, but not in dollars. Money is the worst thing to have.

Whaddya got ?

T



JohnWarren -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 5:27:55 AM)

I don't know the specifics on this question, but as a former journalist who has friends/colleagues on the Washington beat, I can tell you that the president (as with all recent presidents) is accompanied by a PR staff that pretty much records everything that goes on.  It may be that a lot of the stuff (like the reading to kids while aides come in with whispered messages) wasn't seen as problematic so it was released as part of the standard publicity effort.



pahunkboy -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 5:42:15 AM)

I liked Moores "roger and me". After 10 mins of his 911- I turned it off. I am about to dislike him-he is doing an expo on the Red Cross. While the CEO at Red Cross is not worth 400k a year- I hate to see the organization slanderred.

Some VERY good people volunteer for the red cross- yes- corp is silly with a dumb form for everything. But- Clara Barton- is a cut above Micheal Moore.

I heard Moore actually has investments that go against what he preaches.

I do agree that the system.....is top heavy.



mistoferin -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 6:00:10 AM)

Michael Moore makes his living off of people who are easily led by the nose. He profits on the creation and spreading of propaganda bullshit. He targets his audience and tells them he is giving them "fact" while using techniques to cloud their judgment by getting their emotional heart strings dancing. In "Roger and Me" the scene with the rabbits...in "911" the scene with the emotional mother of the soldier. Just two examples, there are many more in his films.

His release of "Roger and Me" only served to further dessimate the town that he portrayed in that movie....the town he stated he was trying to help. It did nothing to improve the lives of the people there. Does that make his hands as dirty as General Motors? As you already stated, his release of "911" hasn't brought about any wonderous change either. The only thing that has changed as a result of his productions is that his bank account has grown.



JohnWarren -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 6:04:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I liked Moores "roger and me". After 10 mins of his 911- I turned it off. I am about to dislike him-he is doing an expo on the Red Cross. While the CEO at Red Cross is not worth 400k a year- I hate to see the organization slanderred.


Actually, they do have quite a lot of dirty laundry.  Among other things, they have an active program of trying to put hospital blood-donation drives out of business so they can be the sole supplier of a very profitable commodity. 

It's not the CEO but the corporate mentality.  The volunteers are nice people, but most of them are not aware of what they are really working for.  Once you look a bit higher, you find a group-think comparable to that of Microsoft.



PlayfulOne -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 7:22:27 AM)

You can always balance it out by watching Fox Propaganda, uhmmmm ,  I mean News.

there are always cameras and tapes rollng of whatever the president is doing,  much of it is released and makes its way into news cast and other ventures.

K



DelightMachine -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 1:06:56 PM)

Footage just before a presidential speech is from a pool camera, not operated by the White House, that goes out to various networks. Therefore, anyone at the networks (and possibly anyone who can pick up the satellite feed, but I'm not sure about that part) can tape the few minutes before the speech actually starts. This is useful for all the networks to make sure that their connection is right and even that the lighting and sound are right. There's no surer way to do it than that.

Politeness generally requires that those moments are not aired and are kept private. Politeness has nothing to do with the way much of the media thinks or works with the Bush administration, so tapes of this get out and are used maliciously. I haven't seen the film, but I've heard of the tapes and this was the explanation I heard about how he got them. I've got a little bit of personal knowledge about the process. Roughly the same thing applies with some scene I hear was in the movie involving Paul Wolfowitz. He was about to go on some interview show and the cameras were already running.

The president reading to the kids on 9/11, I assume, was an event covered by the media. At least one pool camera, controlled by the media, would be there to record the event, which was set up by the White House to get some good publicity about Bush and education.



slaverosebeauty -> RE: 911 questuon (5/29/2006 8:43:04 PM)

Its ALL real footage. I admire the man and what he does. He exposed a 'post turtle' {if you know what that is} if ever their was one. Cameras are always filming, even when you don't think they are, so the persedent or anyone in the public eye is not safe from things like that. Its nice to hear/see the 'truth' at least its better than watching the news. I like reality better than fiction anyway.



UtopianRanger -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 12:29:20 AM)

The worst thing about Moore -- And it has nothing to do with 9-11 -- is he wants 35k a crack to speak at a college campus. He's made tons of money chastising capitalist ideals, yet he works within the same confines.



 - R 



Kedikat -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 1:04:39 AM)

I like what Moore does. But sometimes he does tend to go too dramatic heartstring tugging at points in his films.
As to factual accuracy, I have found no faults. They can be varified, often in government documents ( if you get them before they are " reclasified " )
As far as 35K a speaking engagement, he puts a lot of his own cash into his films. And lots of total losers get as much to yap.
I loved his series. Funeral for a soon to be dead guy at his HMO. Voice box choir at Xmas in the lobby of the tobacoo co. Outrageous! :)
We need people like him. You can't depend on the more mass media to provide all there is to know.
I don't even mind right wing speakers and films, as long as it has good verifiable facts and tells what needs telling. You can learn from both sides if both are being honest, and a little passion and drama doesn't hurt, if not taken to extremes in a presentation of needed facts.



ArtCatDom -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 2:52:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty

Its ALL real footage. I admire the man and what he does. He exposed a 'post turtle' {if you know what that is} if ever their was one. Cameras are always filming, even when you don't think they are, so the persedent or anyone in the public eye is not safe from things like that. Its nice to hear/see the 'truth' at least its better than watching the news. I like reality better than fiction anyway.


If you like reality better than fiction, I'd suggest not getting your information from Michael Moore. He splices speeches in outright deception. He arranges material depceptively as well, both for purposes of propaganda and to lead the viewer to draw false conclusions. He is, in short, a f***ing liar.

I still remember seeing Bowling for Columbine in the theaters. What a load of bull pap. One of the worst parts was the cartoon following the interview with Matt Stone from South Park. It was obviously done in South Park style, which I learned after seeing the film Parker and Stone had nothing to do with. (They were in fact, quite upset about Moore's deceptive implication). It's a nice little cartoon showing that the KKK was outlawed and the NRA founded at the same time, implying the NRA was founded by the KKK. (This is by far not the only time Moore tries to show or imply that the NRA is racist in that film.) Oddly, nothing could be further from the truth. The NRA was founded by anti-KKK individuals and the very President who signed the law outlawing the group later became president of the NRA.

By all means, don't take my word for it. Watch his films and research his claims. Look for unedited footage of those interviews and film footage he uses in his films. His work fails to withstand research and scrutiny.

*meow*

P.S. Not to say I don't like some of his work. Canadian Bacon is a fantastic movie!



ArtCatDom -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 2:55:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I like what Moore does. But sometimes he does tend to go too dramatic heartstring tugging at points in his films.
As to factual accuracy, I have found no faults. They can be varified, often in government documents ( if you get them before they are " reclasified " )
As far as 35K a speaking engagement, he puts a lot of his own cash into his films. And lots of total losers get as much to yap.
I loved his series. Funeral for a soon to be dead guy at his HMO. Voice box choir at Xmas in the lobby of the tobacoo co. Outrageous! :)
We need people like him. You can't depend on the more mass media to provide all there is to know.
I don't even mind right wing speakers and films, as long as it has good verifiable facts and tells what needs telling. You can learn from both sides if both are being honest, and a little passion and drama doesn't hurt, if not taken to extremes in a presentation of needed facts.



The problem is Moore is not being honest. At some points he goes to extreme length to mangle together information, edited clips and other resources in completely dishonest fasions.

He also doesn't need that 35k to pay for his films. He's a known draw and can easily secure funding. He also is quite the wealthy multimillionaire now. Long gone are the days of Roger and Me.

*meow*





Kedikat -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 3:42:31 AM)

I get my information from a variety of sources, as noted in my post. I am intelligent and informed enough to view any source with a critical mind and take the good from it.
You seem to have decided that anything Moore does on politically or socially relevant topics is crap and lies.
What do you recommend as a good source of such information? And why do you recommend it?



ArtCatDom -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 4:12:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I get my information from a variety of sources, as noted in my post. I am intelligent and informed enough to view any source with a critical mind and take the good from it.
You seem to have decided that anything Moore does on politically or socially relevant topics is crap and lies.
What do you recommend as a good source of such information? And why do you recommend it?


I do not think everything he says or does with social and political topics is a lie. However, he has a shown a willingness in almost every such film to liberally mix lies, truths, half-truths and deceptions. See my above comments about the KKK/NRA cartoon as a perfect example of outright dishonesty from Mr. Moore.

http://www.fair.org/
http://www.factcheck.org/
http://www.projectcensored.org/

The first two are generally consistant is checking out under scrutiny of research.

The third is excellant for noting what is not being well-covered, but the accuracy varies as much as the sources and should be subjected to scrutiny.

*meow*



MistressLorelei -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 9:22:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

The worst thing about Moore -- And it has nothing to do with 9-11 -- is he wants 35k a crack to speak at a college campus. He's made tons of money chastising capitalist ideals, yet he works within the same confines.



- R 


It's commonplace for Universities to pay this much money, and often more to guest speakers from the left, right (Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter), and all areas in between. Political speakers, as well as artists, wealthy business/financial experts, pro athletes, etc. get paid.  It's fair to think that everyone should get paid, except Michael Moore? 

My University just spent big bucks to get Vanessa Williams to speak at the new school of the arts; the law school spends a fortune on political figures, including Supreme Court Justices.

Keep in mind that it does cost money and time to tour... aside from travel expenses for Moore, and those he travels with, there are salaries (agent, secretary, etc), business costs, promotional fees, costs incurred when he makes pro bono speeches, etc.

I think Moore can be a bit over the top in his behavior at times, but he is presenting straight footage and interviews, and citing facts that are documented, otherwise he would be involved in countless lawsuits.  Moore is a movie maker, so he made  Fahrenheit 911 and presented facts, footage and interviews in an artistic and interesting way (It was a documentary, that's what a documentary is).  He didn't make up the facts, or create/fabricate the footage.  I don't see the controversy.



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 9:30:30 PM)

I like Moore for several different reasons.  However, if I threw all but one in a mud puddle, I'd still watch his documentaries for this, and this alone:  The man makes you think.  I mean really think, not just skim the surface.



Kedikat -> RE: 911 questuon (5/30/2006 11:59:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I get my information from a variety of sources, as noted in my post. I am intelligent and informed enough to view any source with a critical mind and take the good from it.
You seem to have decided that anything Moore does on politically or socially relevant topics is crap and lies.
What do you recommend as a good source of such information? And why do you recommend it?


I do not think everything he says or does with social and political topics is a lie. However, he has a shown a willingness in almost every such film to liberally mix lies, truths, half-truths and deceptions. See my above comments about the KKK/NRA cartoon as a perfect example of outright dishonesty from Mr. Moore.

http://www.fair.org/
http://www.factcheck.org/
http://www.projectcensored.org/

The first two are generally consistant is checking out under scrutiny of research.

The third is excellant for noting what is not being well-covered, but the accuracy varies as much as the sources and should be subjected to scrutiny.

*meow*

Thanks for the links. I'll keep an eye on them too.



UtopianRanger -> RE: 911 questuon (5/31/2006 12:17:07 AM)

quote:

It's commonplace for Universities to pay this much money, and often more to guest speakers from the left, right (Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter), and all areas in between. Political speakers, as well as artists, wealthy business/financial experts, pro athletes, etc. get paid.  It's fair to think that everyone should get paid, except Michael Moore?


*Context* The first thing you both know and feel after hearing Hannity and Coulter { I am a fan of neither} speak, is they both believe-in work within a capitalistic framework.  Moore on the other hand, chastises that framework and goes as far as advocating sixty to seventy percent of the above average wage earner's income should be redistributed back to the bowls of society. It’s my belief that he’s one of those guys who does not practice what he preaches.

I have no problem if Moore earns 100k a speech, but I wish he would be more {pun intended} honest and a little bit less sanctimonious.[;)]



 - R







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