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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 9:55:03 AM

LafayetteLady

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Hmmmm....Sparky is a ginger as well. I wonder if, like tortiose shell kitties, that behavior issues are more common?

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 11:21:38 AM

xxblushesxx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

We've almost always had a basement kitteh. One who, for one reason or another, is not allowed upstairs.

I'd highly suggest trying to implement the above suggestions first though, because one or a combination might just work for you, and I wouldn't want you feeling guilty every time you saw him. (trust me, it happens) That drug was a miracle worker for us. We're slowly cutting back on it, but he hasn't had an incident in at least a couple (if not a few) months. I think he's been on it about five months.

The basement in the new house is finished, so he can't really run willy nilly there lifting his tail at whim either. I will try the stuff you mentioned, though. Thanks.

Just a note: He has been like this since I have known him. He has drawn blood on my feet as I walked by (before I even lived here), so I doubt there would be a whole lot of guilt at him being caged. Honestly, I would prefer to get rid of him and replace him with a kitten who could be trained properly.

Of course you would. You don't have the attachment to him your friend has. But would you expect your friend to replace their child with a "better one", if he had a child who didn't behave as you wanted him to?

Does the kitty go in the litter box at all? If he's not using it, he may have a UTI, or crystal blocking him from peeing without pain. (often due to a poor diet) As Dusky said, the first thing you need to do is get him to the vet to rule out medical causes.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 11:22:44 AM

soul2share

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MY monster KB never sprayed until I moved into a house with 3 other fixed cats. He still does. he was 3 years old when he started, and now, I can't get him to stop. And he was neutered when he was 6 months old.

But now, he doesn't spray to mark his territory, he does it when he's pissed (no pun intended) at me for something. He doesn't even care if I'm standing right there when he does it. He'll look me dead in the eye and do it, then calmly walk away when I smack him or hit him with the squirt bottle. I've tried all the sprays, drops, even the Feliway plug ins, to no avail. He ruined a set of box springs on my bed......I did find some excellent stuff at Wal mart for getting rid of the odors, and it's actually in the dog section, but it's still a pain in the ass.

I hope the suggestions given help you out, I 'd really hate to see the kitty banned to the basement, but as everyone's said, getting him fixed WILL help some. The aggression may tone down a notch, the spraying, I guess you'll just have to wait and see. My point is that my guy started spraying later in life, even tho he is fixed. I was under the impression that if the male was fixed, he couldn't/wouldn't spray. Guess I was wrong!

< Message edited by soul2share -- 12/13/2011 11:23:55 AM >

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 11:29:01 AM

xxblushesxx

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LL, please keep in mind that crate training is a temporary measure. (2 weeks is the amount that was recommended to me at the vet's office)
S2S, you may want to ask your vet about the medicine I mentioned earlier. It's really worked for us, and, from what I understand, you can eventually wean them off it, and most of them who are (eventually) weaned off of it, don't spray. (I can't speak first handed about the cats who no longer take it, because ours does, but it sure is working!)

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 11:45:08 AM

Duskypearls

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bighappygoth39

I can only agree with what everyone else has said, but I'm no expert like the lovely Duskypearls. I have had cats as pets off and on for a very long time, though, so I can go on that experience.
When my Fifi had her kittens, I kept two of the boys, and had them all neutered at the same time. It certainly seemed to calm them down, especially the ginger one, who was even naughtier than he can be now, so I should think having your Sparky neutered should show some improvement in his behaviour, at least.
As for litter training, that can be a bit more tricky, but following the other suggestions should work. I can suggest using the wood base stuff, as I've found it to be just brilliant compared to the grit stuff. My boys tend to not cover their mess very well, and their mum usually does it after them, but the wood base stuff certainly helps a lot. I'm sure all of the advice offered should help a great deal, anyway.

Thanks for the kind words, but I'm anything but an expert.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 1:01:16 PM

Duskypearls

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Maybe Sparky comes has had a difficult past, and not been well socialized. I've known a ginger or two in my time to be a bit challenging. They can be smart/creative buggers; sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

Truth be told, his owner's not doing him any favors if she's not willing to be responsible for, or correct his bad behaviors. In fact, it's doing you all a terrible disservice. Sound like he'd be better off with people better suited, and more skilled at being the pack leader, as it were. I hope his owner might be willing to consider this.

Does Sparky show ANY signs of urinary difficulties, like only small amounts frequently, blood in urine or in tub, or particularly strong-smelling? Signs of pain or straining when voiding? Does it take him long to void? What's his water intake like? Normal, a little or a lot? Sometimes urinary infections will inspire cats to use bathtubs or sinks, as their U systems are inflamed, and tubs are cool and soothing.

Flower essences are NOT aromatherapeutic oils, which will NOT take their place. I've actually made essences, and it's very easy. Fresh, clear spring water is put in a bowl. The fresh blossom petals from the plant are removed and put on top of the water in the bowl. The bowl is place in the sunshine for a certain number of hours. The suns energy gently transmits the vibrational signature energy from the hard blossom's physical matter into the water. The water is strained, and blossoms discarded. A “Mother” bottle of the energized water is created, and preserved with either alcohol, vinegar or vegetable glycerin. From that Mother bottle, an individual treatment bottle is created with a certain amount of one or more of the flower essences, to which a preservative is added to it. The animal/human is dosed with a certain amount of drops from the treatment bottle, a certain number times a day orally, or it can be placed in water or food. Can also be topically applied, being especially effective on the head, pulse or acupuncture points. First few times around, though, it's best to buy them already made.

Bach flower essences can be picked up in health food stores, and are relatively cheap. For pets, you'd want to order directly from Bach, and make sure they're in a vegetable glycerin preservative, which is sweet, and easier for cats to take. Their toll free # is on their site. Rescue Remedy is one bottle comprised of five different essences; http://www.bachflower.com/Rescue_Remedy.htm or one can buy individual bottles to make a custom mix.

Here are the basic Bach remedies for animal use: http://www.bachflower.com/Pets.htm

The Flower Essence Society in Nevada makes many different flower essences. I'm not sure if their site allows you to read individual flower profiles, so you may need to see if you can purchase one of their books. The one I use is “Flower Essence Repertory,” by Pat Kaminski & Richard Katz.

Their site offers access to a practitioner referrals, among a lot of other interesting info like peoples and vets successful experiences using these essences. It's VERY good to begin with a practitioner, as it's not always easy to diagnose mental/emotional aspects, choose the right essence, and monitor the sometimes VERY subtle changes once treatment begins, or signs you've chosen the wrong essence and have exacerbated or confused the issue. It takes a keen eye and intution. For the inexperienced, sometimes just using the Rescue Remedy is helpful.

Then again, if you know how to energy test your animal for a particular item to see if its use is appropriate, you can just do that.

Here's basic instruction on how to create dosage bottles, etc. from flower essences:

http://www.flowersociety.org/articles/Choosing_Flower_Essences.pdf

Cats have scent glands on each side of their head, their lips, chin (which is why they're always face-rubbing people, objects and other animals – they're marking/claiming territory!), along their tail and its base, between their front paws, and near their sex organs. I would use a dry washcloth along their facial glands, and try that on objects first. Then try a dry rub with cloth to which you add some water and see if that works better. Kitty probably wouldn't appreciate a wet cloth on him anywhere, given the choice, but I could be wrong!

I hadn't thought of it before, and it's a rare occurrence, but sometimes an undescended testicle or tumorous abdominal mass can cause spraying.

You can also try a litter called Cat Attract which is designed to encourage cats to be trained or re-trained to use the litter box. Petco, Petsmart & larger pet supply stores should have this.

The Feliway pheromone also comes in an electric plug “Comfort Zone.”

LafLady, I know you're not crazy about this critter, and you have quite a mission in front of you. If you find yourself able to forgive the cat its troubling behaviors, it may aid in your success. You know silly cats...they pick up on EVERYTHING!

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 1:30:38 PM

Duskypearls

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Laflady, I found more products that may help. I have no personal knowledge of, or experience with them:

http://www.nutri-vet.com/products/Pet%252dEase-Plus-Natural-Calming-Spray-for-Cats.html

http://www.nativeremedies.com/petalive/petcalm-nervous-dogs-cats.html?ysmchn=GGL&ysmcpn=Google%2520PetAlive&ysmgrp=PA+Product+Names&ysmtac=PPC&ysmtrm=PetAlive%2520PetCalm

http://www.zylkene.co.uk/faqs.asp

http://www.zylkene.co.uk/

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 1:41:59 PM

DomKen

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Are the cats sharing a single litter box? Some cats will not share at all.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 2:02:17 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

Of course you would. You don't have the attachment to him your friend has. But would you expect your friend to replace their child with a "better one", if he had a child who didn't behave as you wanted him to?

Does the kitty go in the litter box at all? If he's not using it, he may have a UTI, or crystal blocking him from peeing without pain. (often due to a poor diet) As Dusky said, the first thing you need to do is get him to the vet to rule out medical causes.

In my world, pets and people don't hold the same status. If I had a friend who had a severely misbehaving child, I would not be looking to share a house with them, and would have directed him to get help for his child.

They will be going to the vet very soon so they can both get fixed and get a clean bill of health.

No, he doesn't go in the litter box at all, but I would be surprised if it was due to infection. I'm not ruling it out, but personal knowledge has led me to believe it is a lack of discipline that is causing the problem.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 2:15:15 PM

LafayetteLady

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Honestly, the aggression is not really that big of an issue. His owner doesn't mind him biting his hands, and I just don't give him any attention, other than to shoo him off the counter or somewhere else he shouldn't be.

If Sparky is given a clean bill of health, and the crating doesn't work to get him properly trained, he will not be allowed indoors at all. We'll get him a little insulated pethouse for outside, and that will be it. If I could find another home for him where this behavior wasn't a problem I would.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 2:39:20 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

Maybe Sparky comes has had a difficult past, and not been well socialized. I've known a ginger or two in my time to be a bit challenging. They can be smart/creative buggers; sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

Truth be told, his owner's not doing him any favors if she's not willing to be responsible for, or correct his bad behaviors. In fact, it's doing you all a terrible disservice. Sound like he'd be better off with people better suited, and more skilled at being the pack leader, as it were. I hope his owner might be willing to consider this.

You are right, my housemate is not a good pack leader. We've talked about it quite a bit, and while he understands, that role does fall to me. If the spraying behavior can be eradicated, Sparky will stay and have a happy life, even if he remains a snotty little SOB. The spraying, though, I will NOT tolerate.

quote:

Does Sparky show ANY signs of urinary difficulties, like only small amounts frequently, blood in urine or in tub, or particularly strong-smelling? Signs of pain or straining when voiding? Does it take him long to void? What's his water intake like? Normal, a little or a lot? Sometimes urinary infections will inspire cats to use bathtubs or sinks, as their U systems are inflamed, and tubs are cool and soothing.

I honestly don't think it is a health issue, but I won't completely rule it out. He doesn't seem to have any of the issues you are mentioning. To be honest, what I think has happened, was that when my friend was alone, he had some personal issues and he didn't immediately correct the behavior, or do so adequately. So Sparky thought it was ok to continue. My friend was also a bit of a hoarder, which is being corrected, and the majority of things Sparky has marked are disappearing. I believe (although I could be wrong) that Sparky has marked so many places, and just continues to do so over the old spots. The house we are currently in is a nightmare, even without Sparky's issues. Our new house, on the other hand, is in beautiful condition and is going to stay that way.

While crating is not the optimal solution, I have never heard a vet say that longer than two weeks is harmful to an animal. Shelter animals are habitually crated longer than that, and it doesn't seem to have an adverse effect. Socks was crated for the majority of the summer and while she didn't like it (nor did I), it was a necessity for where we were at the time. She is happy to no longer be crated, but about the only repurcussion she has exhibited is being even MORE affectionate than before, and she gained a little weight, which is being taken care of.

I will forward all that essence stuff to my housemate. He is science dude and will enjoy figuring it all out. Just reading it made my head spin.

It would be impossible for me to notice changes in this cat, since I have little contact with him. I don't think my housemate is observant enough to notice either. If it were Socks, I can tell you just by looking at her what kind of mood she is in. She's my cat and spends every waking (and sleeping moment) next to me just about.

quote:

LafLady, I know you're not crazy about this critter, and you have quite a mission in front of you. If you find yourself able to forgive the cat its troubling behaviors, it may aid in your success. You know silly cats...they pick up on EVERYTHING!

I wish I could be crazy about him honestly. I don't hold a grudge against him, I really don't. I know that my housemate is more to blame for this problem than Sparky, but Sparky is pretty much now just being difficult because he has moved from being the head of the house (contolling even his own) to coming in third. For those that are struggling with that math, lol....I am the head of the house, because my friend doesn't really know how to do a lot of things due to some troubling issues in his past. He is learning, bit by bit how to be more self sufficient. Socks comes in second, because...well because she is my cat and she took the position from Sparky. My housemate still isn't able to assert himself as an alpha over the cats, which is a shame, but until he does that, the cats are going to bully him to the bottom. Basically, it is a female dominated household, lol, with Socks (as the smallest member) being the enforcer of territory, lol.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/13/2011 2:50:46 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Are the cats sharing a single litter box? Some cats will not share at all.

In the new house, they won't be sharing a box. Here, Sparky didn't use it before Sock got here, so it's kind of a non issue.

Socks will have her box upstairs, Sparky (if he manages to learn) will have his downstairs. Socks won't be permitted downstairs and Sparky won't be allowed upstairs, as least for a while.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 6:05:51 AM

xxblushesxx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

Of course you would. You don't have the attachment to him your friend has. But would you expect your friend to replace their child with a "better one", if he had a child who didn't behave as you wanted him to?

Does the kitty go in the litter box at all? If he's not using it, he may have a UTI, or crystal blocking him from peeing without pain. (often due to a poor diet) As Dusky said, the first thing you need to do is get him to the vet to rule out medical causes.

In my world, pets and people don't hold the same status. If I had a friend who had a severely misbehaving child, I would not be looking to share a house with them, and would have directed him to get help for his child.

They will be going to the vet very soon so they can both get fixed and get a clean bill of health.

No, he doesn't go in the litter box at all, but I would be surprised if it was due to infection. I'm not ruling it out, but personal knowledge has led me to believe it is a lack of discipline that is causing the problem.

Cats don't need discipline. Honestly almost all cats will instinctively use the litter box unless there is something stopping them. Often the pain of an infection is associated with the litter box, so they quit using it. They think something like, "every time I go in that box, I feel pain...so I won't go in the box any longer."

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 7:36:28 AM

Duskypearls

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I have come upon one or two furballs in my lifetime that had no medical problems (or any other) of any kind, and they simply did not, would not, and could not "get" the litter box thing down. For whatever reason, they began and ended with some kind of block/inability to understand the concept. Very strange, when you get one like that. No amount of training or encouragement will shift them. No malintent on their part, just an incredible denseness. I never did figure that one out.

< Message edited by Duskypearls -- 12/14/2011 7:38:01 AM >

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 3:08:34 PM

kalikshama

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Has the "make sure the litter box is well maintained" issue already been covered? Cats will seek alternatives if the box needs scooped or changed. Also, I find fragranced litter horrendous and cats have a better sense of smell - I used Arm & Hammer Unscented.

When I was cat sitting, my cat and my housemate's cat would use the other's box. Fortunately, this was the extent of their rivalry/territoriality.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 3:12:49 PM

Duskypearls

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Yes, Kali, it has been addressed. I, too, abhor scented litters. With such sensitive noses as kitties have, I would think it a capital way to put cats off their box.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 3:42:11 PM

DameBruschetta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

Of course you would. You don't have the attachment to him your friend has. But would you expect your friend to replace their child with a "better one", if he had a child who didn't behave as you wanted him to?

Does the kitty go in the litter box at all? If he's not using it, he may have a UTI, or crystal blocking him from peeing without pain. (often due to a poor diet) As Dusky said, the first thing you need to do is get him to the vet to rule out medical causes.

In my world, pets and people don't hold the same status. If I had a friend who had a severely misbehaving child, I would not be looking to share a house with them, and would have directed him to get help for his child.

They will be going to the vet very soon so they can both get fixed and get a clean bill of health.

No, he doesn't go in the litter box at all, but I would be surprised if it was due to infection. I'm not ruling it out, but personal knowledge has led me to believe it is a lack of discipline that is causing the problem.

Cats don't need discipline. Honestly almost all cats will instinctively use the litter box unless there is something stopping them. Often the pain of an infection is associated with the litter box, so they quit using it. They think something like, "every time I go in that box, I feel pain...so I won't go in the box any longer."

I haven't read the whole thread from start to finish today, so maybe this has been mentioned and I don't remember but - is he declawed? If so, perhaps that is how this who anit-litter box thing started.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 5:37:33 PM

LafayetteLady

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Yes, cats will typically go to the litter box by instinct, but once they have developed a habit of not using it, it is difficult to bring them back to it. Remember, it isn't that Sparky just started not using the box, he has been doing this for all the time before I was even here.

And yes, all animals, including cats required discipline to correct bad behavior. Socks knows the word "no" which is a form of discipline. She also knows if she jumps up on the counter, she is going to get in trouble. I doubt Sparky had ever heard the word no prior to my living here, so I'm taking a 6 year old cat with VERY bad habits and trying to correct very long instilled habits.

Since this has been Sparky's habit since he was about a year old, it is doubtful that he has had an infection for that long without it escalating into something my housemate would have taken notice of.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 5:44:38 PM

LafayetteLady

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DB,

Neither Sparky or Socks is declawed. Years ago, I interviewed for a job at a vet's office and watched a declawing procedure. I have only had one cat in my life declawed (prior to my observation of the procedure) and swore I would never do it again. Actually, I have been very lucky to always have cats who didn't ruin my furniture or curtains.

I can honestly say I have no idea whether the litter is scented or not. Litter box duty falls to my housemate, and so I don't pay attention. I will say that because my cat has never had any issues with it, I have never paid attention to the litter I purchase. Socks has used scoopable, clay, odor control, and some natural corn litter when I was staying with a friend. She has never not used it, and my only complaint with her is that she often goes in and wants to "dig to China" as I call it, and kicks the litter everywhere. That is mostly resoved with a covered litterbox.

When I first moved in here, Sparky's spraying did temporarily decline (only now remembering, that's why I hadn't mentioned it). It seemed that he would go in the litter box to cover Socks' scent. That smal respite has definately ended.

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RE: For everyone with Well Behaved Cats - 12/14/2011 6:27:48 PM

MistressDarkArt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

I have come upon one or two furballs in my lifetime that had no medical problems (or any other) of any kind, and they simply did not, would not, and could not "get" the litter box thing down. For whatever reason, they began and ended with some kind of block/inability to understand the concept. Very strange, when you get one like that. No amount of training or encouragement will shift them. No malintent on their part, just an incredible denseness. I never did figure that one out.

I have one who came to the household as a 2 year old abandoned street kitty who adopted us. He will consistently pee in his box but not poop in it. I tried everything; a dozen different litters (varying textures from super fine to pine pellet, all unscented), squirting him while catching him in the act of pooping on the floor NEXT to his box, putting the poop in the box and holding his paw to have him cover it, catching him in the act and putting him IN the box, praising him profusely for the isolated times he got it in the box...nothing I tried has consistently worked. I brought in a sample to the vet. There were no problems. I get that he would prefer to poop out in the yard like he did when he was homeless, but that's not an option. The other two cats are flawless box users.

Fortunately, we've come to a truce. He's taken to pooping on the paver floor of the catiary, which is outdoors. I can live with that, especially since one of the other cats makes a big production of gathering surrounding dirt and plant material to cover it up. It's easy to clean up, but not as easy as if he just got it in the box to begin with. I don't know if this is important, but we use pine pellets for litter (awesome stuff, btw, and super cheap if you have a Lemos pet supply...40 lbs for $8.)

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