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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 5:18:07 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

One of the reasons that Obama won the Dem nomination is that he was one of the very few to vote against the invasion originally.  He might take credit for ending the damn thing, but nobody will take credit for starting it, especially if they opposed it.



The surge, which he was against, ended it.


The surge prolonged the war.  It was clearly a lost cause, but the surge allowed the numbers to look better for a while.  Iraq will descend into anarchy, and we can only hope that a pro-Western faction takes control.  The surge did not win the war, and the inevitable result is that we withdraw.  We would withdraw without the surge, and we're withdrawing with it.


_____________________________

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 5:30:05 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		And we are going to walk out of that country and fuck anyone who supported us there (not that there were many) but I said that at the outset when the W imbeciles were laying their armchair general theories of realpolitik on us, and there you have it, where have we done any different?

So, their current and future state is the worse for our 'help'.

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 5:33:13 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And we are going to walk out of that country and fuck anyone who supported us there (not that there were many) but I said that at the outset when the W imbeciles were laying their armchair general theories of realpolitik on us, and there you have it, where have we done any different?

So, their current and future state is the worse for our 'help'.


I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, Ron, but the whole country will descend into a prolonged civil war soon.  There's no way to tell whether the net result will be positive or negative until several years have passed.

That said, it's pretty obvious that if you commit trillions of dollars and thousands of lives with no clue what will eventually happen based on a rosy projection that was never realistic or even sane, it's a cluster fuck.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 5:37:54 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And we are going to walk out of that country and fuck anyone who supported us there (not that there were many) but I said that at the outset when the W imbeciles were laying their armchair general theories of realpolitik on us, and there you have it, where have we done any different?

So, their current and future state is the worse for our 'help'.


I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, Ron, but the whole country will descend into a prolonged civil war soon.  There's no way to tell whether the net result will be positive or negative until several years have passed.

That said, it's pretty obvious that if you commit trillions of dollars and thousands of lives with no clue what will eventually happen based on a rosy projection that was never realistic or even sane, it's a cluster fuck.



I'm not really worried about the inevitable civil war thats coming.  Good or bad it wont affect us for some years yet.

What fuckin burns me is just what I said at the outset, we have guarenteed terrorist actions and have visited our sins on our children and our grand children and their grand children over this ignorant shit.

_____________________________

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 5:55:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

One of the reasons that Obama won the Dem nomination is that he was one of the very few to vote against the invasion originally.  He might take credit for ending the damn thing, but nobody will take credit for starting it, especially if they opposed it.



The surge, which he was against, ended it.


The surge prolonged the war.  It was clearly a lost cause, but the surge allowed the numbers to look better for a while.  Iraq will descend into anarchy, and we can only hope that a pro-Western faction takes control.  The surge did not win the war, and the inevitable result is that we withdraw.  We would withdraw without the surge, and we're withdrawing with it.



We are withdrawing with Iraq far more stable than if we had withdrawn before the surge. Will that last? Unlikely. But we will be in far better shape when we have to return.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 5:59:05 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		LOL.  That little pos surge of years gone by will not and did not make one whit of difference, nor will it affect the future one whit.

It covered for Rumsfeld and overall ineptitude of republicans in the neo-con asswipe spouts for about a year.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/14/2011 6:00:39 PM >

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 8:04:35 PM   
Sanity


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Long live the Bush doctrine:

quote:

OBAMA: 


But there was one constant - there was one constant - your patriotism, your commitment to fulfil your mission, your abiding commitment to one another. That was constant. That did not change. That did not waiver.

It's harder to end a war than begin one. Indeed, everything that American troops have done in Iraq - all the fighting and all the dying, the bleeding and the building, and the training and the partnering - all of it has led to this moment of success.

Now, Iraq is not a perfect place. It has many challenges ahead. But we're leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant Iraq, with a representative government that was elected by its people.


We're building a new partnership between our nations. And we are ending a war not with a final battle, but with a final march toward home.

This is an extraordinary achievement, nearly nine years in the making. And today we remember everything that you did to make it possible.

We remember the early days: the American units that streaked across the sands and skies of Iraq, the battles from Karbala to Baghdad, American troops breaking the back of a brutal dictator in less than a month...
...That's why you, the 9/11 Generation, have earned your place in history. Because of you, because you sacrificed so much for a people that you had never met, Iraqis have a chance to forge their own destiny.

That's part of what makes us special as Americans. Unlike the old empires, we don't make these sacrifices for territory or for resources. We do it because it's right.


There can be no fuller expression of America's support for self-determination than our leaving Iraq to its people. That says something about who we are.





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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 8:36:45 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Have you cleaned up your key board yet?



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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/14/2011 8:54:37 PM   
BanthaSamantha


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Status: offline 		I fail to understand how this speech even comes close to an endorsement of Bush's Preemption doctrine.

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 2:06:22 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

I fail to understand how this speech even comes close to an endorsement of Bush's Preemption doctrine.


Thats because it doesnt. Sanity knows this but thinks if he denys the truth it will justify his OP

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 4:44:18 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, Ron, but the whole country will descend into a prolonged civil war soon.  There's no way to tell whether the net result will be positive or negative until several years have passed.

It's not necessarily going to be that prolonged: for all anybody knows the Iranians will invade the second the withdrawal's finished.

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 5:13:25 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

I fail to understand how this speech even comes close to an endorsement of Bush's Preemption doctrine.


Thats because it doesnt. Sanity knows this but thinks if he denys the truth it will justify his OP

So you're saying that sanity is going by the theory of Lenin and Goebbels? (A lie told often enough becomes the truth)

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 5:17:18 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		He's probably not too well up on Goebbels. (If he was he'd hardly keep parroting Rush, would he?) It's more likely the Snark principle, instead.
"What i tell you three times is true..."

_____________________________

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 5:52:40 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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They can never admit such things to themselves, they feel that their Messiah is perfection walking among us

He can do no wrong, regardless of how Bush-like he may appear to be at times



quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

More bullshit, Obama never claimed any credit for the war in Iraq.

He can, if he wishes, claim credit for making good his campaign promise to bring the troops home as soon as possible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16186136


Actually he delayed bringing them home well beyond his campaign promises, and adhered to the Bush timetable in the end. And he wanted troops to remain but got thrown out, so bringing them home wasnt even his idea.


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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 6:03:37 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Thrown out? According to McCain staying was never really discussed.

So, which is it?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 6:17:42 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		If he's so much like Dubya, that mean's you'll be putting an "Obama 12" sign in your yard and voting for him right?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


They can never admit such things to themselves, they feel that their Messiah is perfection walking among us

He can do no wrong, regardless of how Bush-like he may appear to be at times



quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

More bullshit, Obama never claimed any credit for the war in Iraq.

He can, if he wishes, claim credit for making good his campaign promise to bring the troops home as soon as possible.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16186136


Actually he delayed bringing them home well beyond his campaign promises, and adhered to the Bush timetable in the end. And he wanted troops to remain but got thrown out, so bringing them home wasnt even his idea.




_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 6:22:41 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Long live the Bush doctrine



The Bush Doctrine went against everything this country ever stood for.

But wasn't it you who was claiming a few years ago that the Bush Doctrine never existed?

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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 6:26:45 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		FR -

While Obama basks in the warm afterglow of our diligent efforts to bring Democracy to the people of Iraq, the Associated Press is sticking to the far left meme that American soldiers are essentially baby killers and war criminals

http://news.yahoo.com/panetta-formally-shuts-down-us-war-iraq-104719150.html


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RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 6:28:57 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

 
Why all the "gotcha" bullshit, what's wrong with someone from outside of politics as usual. She's not supposed to be a Washington insider, that's the beauty of the pick...

Besides, as has already been explained as nauseum, there is no actual 'Bush Doctrine' per se.




_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Obama Praises, Blesses, Takes Credit For Iraq War - 12/15/2011 6:37:04 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


They can never admit such things to themselves, they feel that their Messiah is perfection walking among us



Coming from the person who would have bowed down and kissed Dubya's shoes until his poll ratings tanked.

Then you decided he wasn't really a conservative.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 40
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