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RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 9:14:08 PM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

mmmhhh the ole slave (vs) sub debate that never has a resolution.

To me the difference between a sub and slave is how you feel yourself. If there are truly degrees of submission, then I can testify that I have known subs that are 'more' submissive than some who call themselves slaves.

Many people have a definition fixed in their head as to what makes one a slave or a sub, the reality is, the definition usually only works for themselves and (hopefully) their partner.

Brosco

Just to be absolutely clear....no I do NOT want this thread to turn into a sub vs. slave thread!!! That topic has been done to death and it's not what I am looking for here at all. I am not looking for the differences as people see them, I am looking to find out if people view them differently in a quality sense.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Brosco)

Post #: 21

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 9:24:54 PM

feastie

Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

Labeling, or having concrete, defined definitions for people, any people, is viewed as prejudiced when speaking in any other context. "You see all those people over there? They all have blue eyes. You know what they say blue-eyed people, don't you? I just don't like blue-eyed people, usually, although I know a couple of them."

I think that people are confused about the labels of slave and submissive and I find that this list offers a person a greater opportunity to find a description of how they feel about themselves, not necessarily to attach a label to it. You identify with number eight and refer to yourself as submissive. I find that I identify somewhere between seven and eight, personally and refer to myself as a submissive woman although I have been called a slave in the past.

This thread is more about prejudice than it is about the semantics of submissive/slave.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 22

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 9:38:37 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I am between a 7 and an 8, consider myself a submissive. I guess it is all in how your dominant views you too... this has to be considered IMO. Does your dominant need or desire a slave?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to OsideGirl)

Post #: 23

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 9:42:36 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

This thread is more about prejudice than it is about the semantics of submissive/slave.

I agree. The word "Just" or "Only" before any reference typically implies something negative, or not good enough. There is a restaurant chain where I live, which as a rule - If you come to eat by yourself and the hostess says, "Just one?" you get a free meal.

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 24

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 9:43:49 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear mistoferin, Ladies and Gentlemen;

When I hear, "...just a sub;" I restrain myself from asking if it is a philly cheese sub, meatball sub, etc.

But, seriously-- All you lads and lassies who submit are very special in your own ways and are a precious lot to us who identify as dominant.

Because of the many styles of D/s, M/s, S&M and or BDSM-- it would be difficult to accurately label individuals but, perhaps individuals who submit can identify to the qualities of slave,submissive, bottom, etc.

I'm of the belief that you sweet lassies and lads should define what submission is, not submission define the lad/lass. This is a fluid standard for both who identify dominant and or submissive. Much like an old candy bar advertisement; "..Sometimes you feel like a nut--sometimes you don't."

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 25

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 10:03:06 PM

DaddiesLilGirl06

Posts: 52
Joined: 2/23/2005
Status: offline

My veiw of a submissive is one who still lives her/his life normal only to have that break when needed to be completely submissive after being the dominant role model for everyone else in regular life. My veiw of a slave is someone who is comfortable being controled totally for every aspect of her/his life that they give freely to her/his Master/Mistress.

just my thought. thats all. nothing to imply on.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 26

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 10:14:07 PM

spankmepink11

Posts: 1310
Joined: 9/28/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

The ON state for a sub is typically less than 100%, meaning there are gaps (OFF states) in their service.

The On state for a slave is tytpically 100% and there is no OFF state.

One has utility/value all the time while the other only part of the time.

This is quite a generalization. Do You imply that if one considers themselves a submissive rather than a slave, that they are only submissive part of the time?
Would You be so kind as to point me in the direction of my ON/OFF switch?

While i'm not completely hung up on the slave versus submissive debate,i do agree that to quantify any one as "just" a ______(fill in the blank) will increase the chances of someone taking exception to the statement.

Recently i recieved a message through IM from a Gentleman who lived within a reasonable distance, ( several hours away instead several states away) after a brief introduction he enquired about some of my experiences. I shared a few , just as he shared a few of his. After maybe fifteen minutes of conversation he requested a phone conversation, to which i politely declined. At this time, he stated that i was apparently "just a sexual submissive or bottom" . I was surprised by his assumption based on our brief exchange, and while his opinion is not going to affect me in the slightest, i still took offense. It's all about negative implication.

(in reply to NastyDaddy)

Post #: 27

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 10:15:10 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

Labeling, or having concrete, defined definitions for people, any people, is viewed as prejudiced when speaking in any other context. "You see all those people over there? They all have blue eyes. You know what they say blue-eyed people, don't you? I just don't like blue-eyed people, usually, although I know a couple of them."

I think that people are confused about the labels of slave and submissive and I find that this list offers a person a greater opportunity to find a description of how they feel about themselves, not necessarily to attach a label to it. You identify with number eight and refer to yourself as submissive. I find that I identify somewhere between seven and eight, personally and refer to myself as a submissive woman although I have been called a slave in the past.

This thread is more about prejudice than it is about the semantics of submissive/slave.

That was kind of my point. Most of us that have lived the life for some amount of time, tend to realize that the labels don't really matter. In my experience, the people that are hung up on the labels are the people that haven't been in the life that long.

So, what happens is the "slave is better" fallacy gets passed along.

We once had a novice that we were looking at as a beta, tell Master that "as a slave, her submission went deeper than any submissives." She gave us quite a laugh, but the sad part was that she actually believed it.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 28

RE: Just a sub? - 5/29/2006 11:32:07 PM

denika

Posts: 619
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil

I think "just a sub" can be fine, but overall think it's a level.

For me, bottoms are people who enjoy having BDSM activities (spanking, whipping, etc) done to them, but are not looking to give up any power or control. The activity is the purpose of play or a relationship.

As each person has their own definition of what slave/submissive means to them the same thing is said of bottoms.
I am a bottom, but I don't fit into the classic description I give up both power and control to my Top, Not all bottoms are masochist the same as not all masochists are bottoms. Mind you, I also do not play with other's only Him so that cancels out the beleif that all bottoms play with multiple partners or have no emotional connection with their Top.

Being called 'just a sub' kind of falls into the same catagory as when paramedics get called 'just ambulance drivers' well ,we do drive the ambulance but we also do alot more same as someone in a submissive relationship.

denika

(in reply to 4u2spoil)

Post #: 29

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 12:03:46 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

I have a line in my profile where I say that Himself is 'just a man'.

"He is not my Earth and air. He is just a man, but because of him the air is sweeter and the Earth more tolerable a place to be."

Just a submissive.. just a slave.. just a woman..

We're not Gods here.. we are 'just' people and if we're happy.. that's 'just' fine and dandy with me. Whether someone is submissive, slave, vanilla or something else, to me.. we're all unique and that means special. I'm 'just' me.. because I'm not anyone else.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to denika)

Post #: 30

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 12:08:39 AM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Just to be absolutely clear....no I do NOT want this thread to turn into a sub vs. slave thread!!! That topic has been done to death and it's not what I am looking for here at all. I am not looking for the differences as people see them, I am looking to find out if people view them differently in a quality sense.

Morning Erin..... I just couldn't sleep after a fantastic meet this weekend...still floating from it. I came across this thread. You got me to thinking about this good. I've posted quite a few times before about not being a slave, only a submissive. Yep even joked around about when I grow up I want to be a slave as well. These words being from my own post. My own thoughts and opinions about myself.

Not at anytime though had I ever thought of myself as less a submissive, because of the term or so called label attatched to me.I'm not going to debate the sub versus slave either. After this weekend (still unable to remove silly grin from face lol). It was made clear to me... I may claim submissive....but there's a slave yerning for release. What ever the hell that ment....lol... is beyond me. No matter of my submission and his thought of slavery..... I didn't change as far as I was concerned. I was just doing what came natural of me.....I submitted. Now during the glorious couple of days...not one time was I called a good submissive...or a good slave. I was just simple told....I made him happy. Was told he would be happy to make me his. He didn't say...happy to make me his submissive... or his slave... just his. So as of this weekend... I found out... I was neither a submissive....nor a slave...I was just his.

Kinda strange isn't it? Even has me looking forward to our next get together..... because i'll be there... not as a submissive... or slave.... just his.

Jessica

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 31

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 12:14:31 AM

wouldlike2

Posts: 89
Joined: 9/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Erin,

I wouldnt take this too seriously... There are plenty of dominants that do not desire slaves. These are the types you and I need in our lives. It is not a deficit in us that we do not require or need to be slaves (whatever this means). I am a submissive by self definition. I do not find this to be less than or more than those who identify as slaves. I like me the way I am. I have found the Yin to my Yang, so it really doesnt matter what others think does it?

There will be those who prefer slave types, and those doms we are not suited for. There are a plethora of dominants out there to choose from... different styles, different personalities, different experience levels, and they alll have different needs. Find one that suits you! This other stuff is just people expressing their opinions and desires... they are allowed to them, just as we are allowed to ours.

very well said Julia,

for myself - and i am just able to speak for myself - i am not longer checking do i fit into the box - into a label. i did found out what is it i need and want.. and no it should not sound greedy.
so a selfreflection first of all, to know who am i is necessary. not cause to put a label on but to be able to be true to Yourself and therefor being true to others - finally to the One.
i do know for myself when the right One comes along and i am in love (yes important for me ,-)) i am willing to give all of me what i am able to give. and i will strive hard for to make sure that the One is happy, to make life better for Him as for me too - there is a balance.
so what am i then? a slave - a submissive - a woman in love?
it is like You told then.. the ying and the yang... it completes me as hopefuly it will complete Him.
and not cause i wouldn't be able to live without Him - but i know its much more better to live with Him....
simple... - smile -

_____________________________

Love arises from the mind while the body follows and reflect the soul

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 32

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 12:17:32 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

Sounds like a splendid weekend, True!! Congrats, hon!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 33

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 12:33:24 AM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

BITA!!!!!!!!............... <still grinning>

It was fabuloussssssssssssssssss lol

thanks....hugsssssssssssssss

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 34

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 12:39:29 AM

NastyDaddy

Posts: 957
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spankmepink11

quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy
The ON state for a sub is typically less than 100%, meaning there are gaps (OFF states) in their service.

The On state for a slave is tytpically 100% and there is no OFF state.

One has utility/value all the time while the other only part of the time.

This is quite a generalization. Do You imply that if one considers themselves a submissive rather than a slave, that they are only submissive part of the time?
Would You be so kind as to point me in the direction of my ON/OFF switch?

While i'm not completely hung up on the slave versus submissive debate,i do agree that to quantify any one as "just" a ______(fill in the blank) will increase the chances of someone taking exception to the statement.

Recently i recieved a message through IM from a Gentleman who lived within a reasonable distance, ( several hours away instead several states away) after a brief introduction he enquired about some of my experiences. I shared a few , just as he shared a few of his. After maybe fifteen minutes of conversation he requested a phone conversation, to which i politely declined. At this time, he stated that i was apparently "just a sexual submissive or bottom" . I was surprised by his assumption based on our brief exchange, and while his opinion is not going to affect me in the slightest, i still took offense. It's all about negative implication.

The post was intended as a generalization, indicative of generalized online BDSM community attitudes.

As far as your ON/OFF switch, I would guess it's somewhere between when you are lifestyle playing and when you are returning to your normal vanilla life. Living a nilla life with an online Dominant is not what many feel consitutes ON 100% of the time.

The point being in the generalization is that most submissives are not 24/7 and those that are are likely not TPE lifestyles, more at a couple who play or scene. Slaves usually do not have vanilla lives unless their Master/Mistress desire such, and slaves usually do not have the option to say no... or safe words, etc... quite a bit different.

The ability and lifestyle of going to play BDSM and then going back to a vanilla life/home is an ON/OFF switch. If you profess to be a sub 24/7 (ON 100%), yet live a vanilla lifestyle then something has been lost in interpretation or definition. Of course the old cliche is whatever works between pairings...

Most took the generalization post in humor, as it was intended... to shake the 'just a X' tree a lil bit and see what kind of fruit falls out first.

In my purview, sub/slave are at the same level of BDSM... they both occupy the submissive level (ie. the same rank BDSM-1's).

(in reply to spankmepink11)

Post #: 35

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 1:49:41 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

But, seriously-- All you lads and lassies who submit are very special in your own ways and are a precious lot to us who identify as dominant.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

My first Dom was the one who helped me realise I was a sub (the term came as a shock to me - I was REALLY new then!). He also told me that subs are like gold, that Dom/mes value their subs and, as you say, are precious.

I've been happily enjoying myself for several years now, I've had a few Doms (er, not all at the same time). But I do feel somehow that as a sub, and as someone who hasn't got experience in the BDSM scene, I'm not as 'good' or 'real BDSM' as a slave. That's one of the reasons I joined this site - hoping to link up with munches, or something, to get more involved (assuming, of course, that I can persuade a certain Dommish person to come along.)

I can't explain it properly, and I don't - at the moment, at least - want to go that far, but to me a slave seems to be like a super-sub (Sub-girl? Able to leap tall Doms while singly bound?) This thread has taught me a lot, thanks.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

Post #: 36

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 3:15:15 AM

Dustyn

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline

It's not all that difficult to figure out why people say things like "just a sub" or "real" or "true".

It's a matter of pride and ego, and we all enjoy thinking that we are the best at what we do, even if it is for only fleeting moments here and there. Anyone that doesn't admit to that having that kind of a thought here and there is lying to themselves about their own ego. I damned well admit that I do it, but only in regards to specific things.

_____________________________

Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children.

Murderer?! Murderer! Let me tell you something about murder. It's fun; it's easy; you gonna learn ALL about it. - Tin Tin

Can you be more amusing?

(in reply to becca333)

Post #: 37

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 3:28:43 AM

Brosco

Posts: 238
Joined: 5/29/2006
Status: offline

"Just to be absolutely clear....no I do NOT want this thread to turn into a sub vs. slave thread!!! That topic has been done to death and it's not what I am looking for here at all. I am not looking for the differences as people see them, I am looking to find out if people view them differently in a quality sense"

So how would it be possible to make a 'quality' judgement without making definitions and seeing differences?

Brosco

_____________________________

Any Dom that believes he is in complete control ... has a very clever subbie.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 38

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 4:49:10 AM

mayapple

Posts: 22
Joined: 5/1/2006
Status: offline

I cannot speak for others, only for myself, but I feel as if I am on a journey to my core, and the way to get there is to peel off more and more layers of protective resistance, to open myself up to more and more control by another, to let my own will be more and more replaced by the will and desires of another until possibly I may come to a point where I have no more will of my own.

If and when I reach that place, I will feel that I have arrived at my core. It is possible that at my core I cannot achieve that level of submissiveness so profound as to be considered (by some, by me) as slavery. But while I am on the way and not yet arrived, I regard it as something to aspire to. I am not there yet, but I long to be there, even if it proves to be elusive. I do not know why I long for it, but it has been a lifelong longing.

While I am on the way, I confess I consider myself "just a sub." This does not mean I think less of myself or any other submissive; it does not mean I consider slaves better than subs. I am not comparing myself to anyone else in the world. I am comparing myself to my own potential, and I believe I have the potential to go deeper into submissiveness, and that is where I want to go. I feel driven to go deeper... even as I marvel at the notion, even as I have no wish to give up my vanilla life, even as I have no wish to be a slave 24/7. But I wish to touch my core, and something in me tells me that at my core there is a slave longing to be freed into slavery.

mayapple

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 39

RE: Just a sub? - 5/30/2006 5:19:39 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
So how would it be possible to make a 'quality' judgement without making definitions and seeing differences?
Brosco

Pretty easily actually as I have not asked what anyone thinks the qualities or characteristics of each are. Everyone has their own definitions of the two terms, and none of those definitions are universally exact. Quite frankly, if we get into the individual definitions, it really clouds the answer to the question. Your personal definitions are going to be absolutely useless to me. I am only asking if you personally think that one is better than the other.

Kind of like asking if you think Fords are better than Chevys. You don't need to point out the differences in order to say you like one or the other better.

Would you think it would be correct to point out the differences if I were to ask if you thought white people were better than black people? People who excel in math better than people who excel in English? Men are better than women? They are all people.

I started this thread to discuss the prejudicial way that the two terms are often compared. I started this thread because I see people, especially those who are newer, adopting positions of inferiority or superiority based upon their current station. I started this thread because I'd really like to make people think.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Brosco)

Post #: 40

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