RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 4:58:57 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Once again, a very few miscreants who bring shame upon an honorable profession are being protected by the very people who are defamed by their actions.

Why?

Because there is always more to the story than the radical media wants us to hear. I'll bet in this case there is another story that would make more sense and throw a different light on the officers actions…But then that would not make a sensational story.

All this may be true but then again it may not be the whole story… give it some time. Remember news organizations can say what the please but police departments by law cannot.

Butch

For gawds sake Butch, the guy is filmed while he is tied to a chair. How the hell can he be a danger to anyone ?

I am also surprised you think reporting this event to be radical, once that view is in peoples head the law can get away with anything.

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 5:03:50 PM

Real0ne

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toxic farts he had to be extinguished in the public interest

this is lawless american gubafia you are talking about here.

only the people obey they law

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 12/25/2011 5:04:57 PM >

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 6:31:51 PM

kdsub

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What the heck does a picture of a violent uncooperative idiot tied to a restraint device mean anything but a way he cannot injury himself or others... that part means nothing... But if he was pepper sprayed while restrained that would be something else... That fact just comes from the media with no proof.

Like I said I will wait until the trial then make an intelligent not a silly emotional judgment.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/25/2011 6:33:33 PM >

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 6:40:11 PM

Lucylastic

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the chap is dead, wait for what?

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 6:45:04 PM

kdsub

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There is a civil trial coming up and all the details will be entered into record...including the police side... and should be made public.

Butch

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 6:55:17 PM

Lucylastic

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civil trial wont "punish them" any way but financially
very different to what anyone else wouldget

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 6:57:12 PM

kdsub

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quote:

I'm very interested in your opinion of what could be more and make what these two cops did to this guy justifiable

My opinion is the story is so outlandish and purposely dramatized by the local sensationalistic media that I find it hard to believe true...and still the police found not at fault. There has to be more to the story.

I would be right with you condemning those responsible if they were found guilty in a court of law… even a civil court…But until then I think they deserve to have their story heard. Most police do not release details of arrest and officers are under a gag order by their superiors. I want to hear under oath their side before I condemn them.

Otherwise everyone deserves their story to be told not just the media… Can you really say you trust the media in all things? Should we be trying people in the media anyway?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/25/2011 7:01:58 PM >

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 6:58:54 PM

kdsub

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But it may vindicate them.

Butch

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 7:02:24 PM

Lucylastic

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sounds to me, like theyve been vindicated, even a civil suit wont affect their jobs if they have been found not guity by the legal court

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 7:06:43 PM

kdsub

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Lucy we have no power to punish them anyway...but if innocent of the charges then at least we will not condemn them and their department. Look at all the posts in this thread assuming they are guilty as charged without even hearing their side...That is unfair and downright dangerous in my opinion.

Butch

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 7:10:01 PM

Lucylastic

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You just pointed out, its a civil case..
people dont need to be found innocent, or guilty to be either innocent NOR guilty
and even when found "innocent", can be as guilty as sin..
If it was a court case, I would want the details, in this case, I hope the truth comes out, of course, I doubt it will

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 7:14:19 PM

kdsub

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You will get the other side in any case... then you could make a better judgment of guilt or innocence or justification if you will.

Buth

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 8:12:25 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

You just pointed out, its a civil case..
people dont need to be found innocent, or guilty to be either innocent NOR guilty
and even when found "innocent", can be as guilty as sin..
If it was a court case, I would want the details, in this case, I hope the truth comes out, of course, I doubt it will

Butch didnt watch the video. If he had, he would have noticed the man arrived at the jail with a shirt on and hand cuffs. Pepper spray is only supposed to be used until the aggressor is restrained. he arrived restrained. the girls testimony wont help the city.

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 8:19:12 PM

kdsub

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tazzy I did watch... we just don't know what happened...there are many scenarios I could think of to explain how and why his clothes were not on...hell if he was a nutcase as his wife says he could have taken them off himself... Are you also going to convict the police just hearing one side? You of all people should know how the media often warps news stories for ratings... Just look at Fox as an example… I just have an open mind and I don't convict or condemn anyone until I hear the whole story.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/25/2011 8:20:42 PM >

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 8:28:51 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

tazzy I did watch... we just don't know what happened...there are many scenarios I could think of to explain how and why his clothes were not on...hell if he was a nutcase as his wife says he could have taken them off himself... Are you also going to try him just hearing one side? You of all people should know how the media often warps news stories for ratings... Just look at Fox as an example… I just have an open mind and I don't convict or condemn anyone until I hear the whole story.

Did I say they were guilty? No. Do I believe they are? There is a strong argument towards that end.

What I also know is the medical aspect of the case.

quote:

Monshay Gibbs was a deputy trainee at the jail at the time. In a video deposition, she testified that she thought the way Nick Christie was treated was excessive.

"He had a spit mask on and was naked," she said on the video while under oath. Gibbs testified that Christie pleaded with guards to take off the spit mask because he couldn't breathe.

He later died at the hospital. His heart failed from the shock of the pepper spray. The Lee County Sheriffs Office declined to comment on our story because of Joyce Christie's wrongful death lawsuit, which is scheduled for trial the middle of next year.

The ME determined his death was a homocide.

quote:

The District 21 Medical Examiner ruled his death was a homicide because he had been restrained and sprayed with pepper sprayed by law enforcement officers.

Criminally negligent? I dont know. Civilly liable? Thats gonna be one heck of a check.

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 8:31:54 PM

kdsub

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The ME made a determination according to the condition of the body... not the circumstances...Tell me have you heard the police side?

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 8:44:17 PM

tazzygirl

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He died because of being pepper sprayed. He died after being told by the wife of his mental condition. He died after telling the cops he was having trouble breathing. He died in police custody. You tell me. What could the police possibly say that would make those facts not facts? There is a Duty of Care... The medical community is well aware of this.

In tort law, a duty of care is a legal obligation imposed on an individual requiring that they adhere to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence. The claimant must be able to show a duty of care imposed by law which the defendant has breached. In turn, breaching a duty may subject an individual to liability.

Again, the most infamous case of the lack of this was Thurman vs City of Torrington. Their duty was to ensure, above all else, the prisoner's safety. You dont have to prove guilt to establish negligence.

Negligence (Lat. negligentia, from neglegere, to neglect, literally "not to pick up something") is a failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances.[1] The area of tort law known as negligence involves harm caused by carelessness, not intentional harm.

Pepper spraying a man, then shoving a spit guard over his mouth, with the effects known of pepper spray that it affects the airways...

As I said... Criminal charges may never come. But civilly, the city just got fucked.

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 8:57:13 PM

kdsub

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quote:

He died because of being pepper sprayed. He died after being told by the wife of his mental condition. He died after telling the cops he was having trouble breathing. He died in police custody. You tell me. What could the police possibly say that would make those facts not facts? There is a Duty of Care... The medical community is well aware of this.

I don't know...lets wait until all the facts are out and see...and… you are calling them facts when they may be anything but. What if what the police say turns out to be the facts? But if you like go ahead and believe them guilty... you have the right no matter how unfair... I also have the right to reserve judgment until all the facts come out…That is why we have courts, judges and juries.

Butch

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 9:01:20 PM

DaddySatyr

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The civil equivilent to "Murder" is wrongful death. That is the complaint they'll be answering.

Unfortunately, rules of evidence are much more lax in civil court as is the burden which must be shouldered by the party bringing the complaint.

I have a feeling that we're hearing one side of a heart-wrenching story and that the people who are kind of forced to remain silent for now are about to get screwed with their pants on in the civil courts.

ETA: In fact, even if found guilty in the civil action, that doesn't mean that they were criminal. It means that the plaintiff was able to convince a jury that these police officers could be guilty of this man's death. hell, I could be guilty of it, too.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/25/2011 9:04:19 PM >

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RE: Pepper Spraying a 62-yr. old - 12/25/2011 9:14:56 PM

tazzygirl

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I never said they were criminally liable.

In a hospital you see this all the time. No criminal charges, but civilly liable.

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