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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 11:18:55 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Considering you *the US* have been usinng trade deals and such since you started, this is hardly something new.
Theres only one reason Obama gets the blame for trade agreements

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:08:17 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Oh, no, Lucy. I'm not blaming President Obama for free trade agreements.

I blame Presidents BushI, Clinton, and BushII.

I believe all three of them have signed free trade agreements.

I will admit to "blaming" (please notice the quotes) any president who doesn't extricate or completely re-work free-trade agreements to make them truly fair for Americans who are bleeding jobs to foreign nations.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:12:27 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Hyas Michael, Im sorry I was not including you in my comment:)
Reagan for example
The impetus for NAFTA actually began with President Ronald Regan, who campaigned on a North American common market. In 1984, Congress passed the Trade and Tariff Act.
its been going on for decades, but the whinning has only been noticeable since Obamas election

Ive been arguing free trade falsehoods since

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:18:21 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I have my own theory about President Reagan and free trade (and you're right. To some extent, he got the ball rolling but, I don't think he ever signed any).

I believe that all of President Reagan's free trade initiative was actually King George I pushing him in that direction (topping from the bottom, if you will). Now, President Reagan sat in the chair so, he's ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch but, the fact that he never actually put his name to anything speaks volumes to me.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:25:32 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		reagans view
In announcing his presidential candidacy in Nov. 1979, he had proposed a “North American accord” in which commerce & people would move freely across the borders of Canada & Mexico. This idea, largely overlooked or dismissed as a campaign gimmick in the US, rankled nationalist sensibilities in the neighboring nations. But Reagan was serious in his proposal. Though he traveled only once outside the North American continent during his first 57 years, he was neither insular nor isolationist. California has windows to the world in Asia, and Reagan thought of the US as a Pacific power as well as an Atlantic one. He also had a Californian’s consciousness of Mexico and an actor’s appreciation of Canadians, who are well-represented in the film community. The dream of a North American accord would drive the successful pursuit of a US-Canadian free trade agreement and a future-oriented “framework” trade agreement with Mexico

George 1 was just a couple of years before Reagans time, ..I doubt he knew what Reagan would do
:)
peace

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:29:10 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
George 1 was just a couple of years before Reagans time, ..I doubt he knew what Reagan would do
:)
peace


My reference to "King George I" is a joke reference to Bush I who made very liberal use of Executive Orders, thus by-passing checks and balances.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:30:18 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		LMAO fair enough:)
my misunderstanding, now I get it:)

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:35:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I have my own theory about President Reagan and free trade (and you're right. To some extent, he got the ball rolling but, I don't think he ever signed any).

I believe that all of President Reagan's free trade initiative was actually King George I pushing him in that direction (topping from the bottom, if you will). Now, President Reagan sat in the chair so, he's ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch but, the fact that he never actually put his name to anything speaks volumes to me.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

The tariffs and trade restrictions that Reagan agreed to were a response to predatory pricing by the Japanese on cars and motorcycles and a market being flooded with cheap steal. He did those to level the playing field for the US...ie fair trade. His other policies were also clearly on the free trade side of the spectrum. He didnt need pressure from Bush. California has several large ports and borders Mexico, and free trade would benefit California as much as Texas. He campaigned on free trade.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/26/2011 3:36:45 PM >

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:41:06 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		President Reagan himself joined the chorus of protectionist statements when a 100 percent tariff was placed on selected Japanese electronics products. "The health and vitality of the U.S. semiconductor industry are essential to America's future competitiveness," he said. "We cannot allow it to be jeopardized by unfair trading practices." Again playing into the hands of the most staunch protectionists in Congress, industry, and organized labor, he claimed he imposed the tariff "to enforce the principles of free and fair trade." White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater reinforced this presidential use of a bogus distinction when he said the tariff was a signal "that we want to be fair traders as well as free traders."

The tariff was imposed after Japan allegedly violated an agreement to keep microchip prices high--an agreement imposed on the Japanese by the Reagan administration.
 

When Japan first accepted the agreement, Reagan rejoiced. "This agreement," he told the New York Times on August 11, 1986, "represents an important step toward freer and more equitable world trade, and will enhance the ability of our semiconductor manufacturers to compete fairly in the Japanese market."


Yeah, and I am Illya Kuryakin. And ther's much, much more. 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/26/2011 3:42:23 PM >

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:44:34 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Yeah, and I am Illya Kuryakin. And ther's much, much more. 


How is U.N.C.L.E. these days?

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 3:45:07 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		better than daddy.

(clarification: the one that's a spanish communist and therefore is a reagan supporter who seems to be a communist if we look at the facts)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/26/2011 3:47:49 PM >

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 4:05:58 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The tariffs and trade restrictions that Reagan agreed to were a response to predatory pricing by the Japanese on cars and motorcycles and a market being flooded with cheap steal. He did those to level the playing field for the US...ie fair trade. His other policies were also clearly on the free trade side of the spectrum. He didnt need pressure from Bush. California has several large ports and borders Mexico, and free trade would benefit California as much as Texas. He campaigned on free trade.


Other than a typical Freudian slip, there is more to say here.

There was a time, Ayn Randers,  when if told that the Japanese, devoid of their own national resources, were buying coking coal from Ceylon, Anthracite from South Africa, scrap iron from America, Oil from the middle east, then going out on a boat in the middle of the ocean, turning it into pig iron and coming back here and selling it back to us cheaper than we could produce it, while enjoying comparable wages and LOW COST NATIONAL HEALTHCARE in one of the finest systems in the world,  Andrew Carnagie would have said, "This is a good fucking place to start a steel company." 

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 4:22:16 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Indeed. The Japanese used a system developed by an American named Deming to completely dominate world markets in quite a few areas.

The system was called (S)tatistical (P)rocess (C)ontrol and it was offered to Detroit auto manufacturers, Chrysler bought in for a very brief while and then, told Deming (maybe two "M"s?) to hit the road.

Using this method of QC and cost efficiency, the Japanese were able to produce goods of a moderate "quality" while keeping costs down and maximizing profits because they made very little "pieces" that were faulty.

When they did find parts or products that were outside parameters, they would completely shut down production, fix the problem and then start the process back up.

Some American companies are now using this system (or a variation thereof) and are starting to compete, once again.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 4:39:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Indeed. The Japanese used a system developed by an American named Deming to completely dominate world markets in quite a few areas.

The system was called (S)tatistical (P)rocess (C)ontrol and it was offered to Detroit auto manufacturers, Chrysler bought in for a very brief while and then, told Deming (maybe two "M"s?) to hit the road.

Using this method of QC and cost efficiency, the Japanese were able to produce goods of a moderate "quality" while keeping costs down and maximizing profits because they made very little "pieces" that were faulty.

When they did find parts or products that were outside parameters, they would completely shut down production, fix the problem and then start the process back up.

Some American companies are now using this system (or a variation thereof) and are starting to compete, once again.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

They also used a system called predatory pricing.


< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/26/2011 4:40:00 PM >

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 4:45:01 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		No, they used a system we called predatory pricing, you see the government was actually involved in the business world and was making a go at the markets for everyones best interest in Japan.  They actually have a cohesive national policy on shit, and look to succeed in the global market place, even if they have to give up a buck right now for long term sustainability.  And the only reason it was predatory is that we couldn't match it and give corporation executives ungodly millions in pay and ungodly millions in bonusus.

And we didnt even (and still dont even) try. Every man for himself except the workers, and if government isnt giving you legal ways to quash competition, its socialist.  Not like anyone in the necktie and paper glossing brigade is getting their ass out of the swivel chair and their feet out of the wastebasket and doing something right.   

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 4:59:41 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		They were able to produce a product that enough people wanted at a better price then American producers could do it. It sounds like free enterprise and supply side economics to me.

They created (or found) a demand and supplied it. I hate what they did to our economy but I can't fault them for having a winning strategy.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/26/2011 5:00:03 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		GM
LOL

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/27/2011 11:43:30 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Actually, to some extent, out-sourcing is the responsibility of the president. It's the free-trade treaties that make other countries a better place for producers to manufacture their goods.

It is cheaper for ... GE to make a TV in China or India or wherever and export them back here.

This wasn't always the case back when there were tarrifs on imported goods. It's one of the reasons Honda started making cars in the US because, at the time, they could actually increase their profit margin.

With all the free-trade treaties, American workers are truly being priced out of the market because even if we were willing to work as cheaply as they do in other some countries, there wouldn't be enough hours in a day to work enough to make enough to afford our cost of living.

Put plainly: Out-sourcing is a direct result of free-trade. Free-trade is a treaty, requiring the signature of the president and the approval of congress (of the president's signature to it)



Peace and comfort,



Michael

Michael,

I've trotted out the evidence in this forum multiple times. People don't want to hear it.

But protectionism doesn't work. You'll have higher prices, fewer goods, lower GDP, fewer jobs, lower wages.

Yes, free trade brings its problems. But the net benefit is substantial, and history shows this over and over.

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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/27/2011 12:24:37 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

They were able to produce a product that enough people wanted at a better price then American producers could do it. It sounds like free enterprise and supply side economics to me.

They created (or found) a demand and supplied it. I hate what they did to our economy but I can't fault them for having a winning strategy.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


Its not free enterprise when the government subsidizes the production and manipulates the currency.

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/27/2011 12:40:03 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Like they do here in the US.

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