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RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 6:38:52 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I hope many still remember when Obama during his first run promised to re-negotiate NAFTA. When Canadian government asked for explanation Obama campaign said not to worry, they are just lying. Many notice Romney and Obama are about the same. Still, I think, Romney is the only one from the current GOP pack who would win. Ron Paul has all the right ideas, but America is not ready for this.
    Romney is late with his China policy. All these candidates seem to be out of touch with reality. They throw out ideas pandering to ignorant people. Today the US is a major currency manipulator (throwing dollars everywhere [not for little people though], "Quantitative Easing"). China will face very serious problems in coming years. They claim 8 to 9% economic growth, but nobody can clearly show where it is coming from. They are export-oriented economy. Europe and US consumers have cut spending and this is where China exports mostly go. They have massive infrastructure projects, and creating huge reserves of raw materials, but if the West falls deep into depression, there is very little benefit of this. Brand new empty ghost towns and empty huge shopping malls in China tell something. China's economic system is not flexible enough to change fast and adopt to a current conditions. Big Trouble in China is very likely to happen. It looks to me, New World Oder China slave labor system is nearing its end. 

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 6:55:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I have my own theory about President Reagan and free trade (and you're right. To some extent, he got the ball rolling but, I don't think he ever signed any).

I believe that all of President Reagan's free trade initiative was actually King George I pushing him in that direction (topping from the bottom, if you will). Now, President Reagan sat in the chair so, he's ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch but, the fact that he never actually put his name to anything speaks volumes to me.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

The tariffs and trade restrictions that Reagan agreed to were a response to predatory pricing by the Japanese on cars and motorcycles and a market being flooded with cheap steal. He did those to level the playing field for the US...ie fair trade. His other policies were also clearly on the free trade side of the spectrum. He didnt need pressure from Bush. California has several large ports and borders Mexico, and free trade would benefit California as much as Texas. He campaigned on free trade.

AND, in fact, free trade has been a Republican position for decades.

It's one of the main areas of agreement I have with them. This anti-trade mania is a union-up opposition, as leftist as it comes, and it's one of the main areas where I have to break with support for unions, primarily because they don't realize the very real damage it would do to them, their incomes, and their jobs.

2/7 of the economy is exports. That means jobs, folks. And replacing imports with more expensive domestically made replacements would cost jobs as well, as markets fall.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 9:47:38 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I have my own theory about President Reagan and free trade (and you're right. To some extent, he got the ball rolling but, I don't think he ever signed any).

I believe that all of President Reagan's free trade initiative was actually King George I pushing him in that direction (topping from the bottom, if you will). Now, President Reagan sat in the chair so, he's ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch but, the fact that he never actually put his name to anything speaks volumes to me.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

The tariffs and trade restrictions that Reagan agreed to were a response to predatory pricing by the Japanese on cars and motorcycles and a market being flooded with cheap steal. He did those to level the playing field for the US...ie fair trade. His other policies were also clearly on the free trade side of the spectrum. He didnt need pressure from Bush. California has several large ports and borders Mexico, and free trade would benefit California as much as Texas. He campaigned on free trade.

AND, in fact, free trade has been a Republican position for decades.

It's one of the main areas of agreement I have with them. This anti-trade mania is a union-up opposition, as leftist as it comes, and it's one of the main areas where I have to break with support for unions, primarily because they don't realize the very real damage it would do to them, their incomes, and their jobs.

2/7 of the economy is exports. That means jobs, folks. And replacing imports with more expensive domestically made replacements would cost jobs as well, as markets fall.


They have ignored your explanations before, and they will continue to. Some arent capable of understanding it and others just dont want to.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 9:52:32 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I like fair trade and will take that over "free" trade, anyday.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 9:55:34 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I like fair trade and will take that over "free" trade, anyday.

As long as you are willing to pay for it, in cost of goods and in lost jobs.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 9:56:44 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I have my own theory about President Reagan and free trade (and you're right. To some extent, he got the ball rolling but, I don't think he ever signed any).

I believe that all of President Reagan's free trade initiative was actually King George I pushing him in that direction (topping from the bottom, if you will). Now, President Reagan sat in the chair so, he's ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch but, the fact that he never actually put his name to anything speaks volumes to me.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

The tariffs and trade restrictions that Reagan agreed to were a response to predatory pricing by the Japanese on cars and motorcycles and a market being flooded with cheap steal. He did those to level the playing field for the US...ie fair trade. His other policies were also clearly on the free trade side of the spectrum. He didnt need pressure from Bush. California has several large ports and borders Mexico, and free trade would benefit California as much as Texas. He campaigned on free trade.

AND, in fact, free trade has been a Republican position for decades.

It's one of the main areas of agreement I have with them. This anti-trade mania is a union-up opposition, as leftist as it comes, and it's one of the main areas where I have to break with support for unions, primarily because they don't realize the very real damage it would do to them, their incomes, and their jobs.

2/7 of the economy is exports. That means jobs, folks. And replacing imports with more expensive domestically made replacements would cost jobs as well, as markets fall.


They have ignored your explanations before, and they will continue to. Some arent capable of understanding it and others just dont want to.

I know. It's why I'm not trotting it out again. No one even bothers to try to dispute it--they just pretend it doesn't exist.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 10:43:16 AM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		The path to economic prosperity is getting out of these free trade deals and somehow forcing companies to bring off-shored jobs back.


< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 12/28/2011 10:44:44 AM >

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 10:50:55 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

The path to economic prosperity is getting out of these free trade deals and somehow forcing companies to bring off-shored jobs back.



Steven: QED

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/28/2011 10:51:21 AM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 10:55:31 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I like fair trade and will take that over "free" trade, anyday.

As long as you are willing to pay for it, in cost of goods and in lost jobs.

There are ways to make it fair and,beneficial for both trading partners.

Yes?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 10:57:45 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I like fair trade and will take that over "free" trade, anyday.

As long as you are willing to pay for it, in cost of goods and in lost jobs.

There are ways to make it fair and,beneficial for both trading partners.

Yes?


Yes. Free trade.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 11:02:04 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Free trade never has and will never happen on this planet.  That is the stuff of watery moonbeams and theoretical thinktanks.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/28/2011 11:12:01 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 11:08:05 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		you can say it all you want Defiant, the fact is, the only way it will happen is if a protectionist/isolationist manages to get a wish from a genie bottle
cutting your nose off to spite your face is not smart, as a country you will lose more than you gain.
WHile I feel the pain, for workers tossed because of outsourcing , its down to employers, and has nothing to do with a president specifically, he isnt responsible for all the canadian companies that outsource or from from UK and they all do it because OUR workers want to have a decent living wage(how dare they) and they only pay slave wages to people actually doing the work, and screwing the paying public with even more expensive devices in order ONLY to fatten their pockets.
Look at the big picture please.



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 1:36:08 PM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline 		Every example of economic prosperity, since about the bronze-age or so, was the direct result of infrastructure development. Sometimes the infrastructure was mental, like sanitation, language, mathematics,etc, and other times physical, like trade-routes, highways, merchant fleets, railroads, telecomm, etc. The periods of prosperity for every cultures, nations, and regions, dating back into prehistory, always follow expansions of commerce into new territory, via new transportation, exploiting new technology, and so forth. The periods of contraction and decline always follow stagnant investment, stalemate warfare, and resource exhaustion. Read your history: When did Rome prosper? China? Persia? Inca? England? Europe? The US?

All that pseudo-academic garbage about marginal tax-rates promoting or inhibiting economic prosperity is exactly that or worse; class-war propaganda. And it doesn't take overt conspiracy for a machiavellian upper-crust to recognize that over-populated squalor provides a cheap labor resource, and act to exploit that twisted infrastructure too, just as they would cheap lumber, ores, or foods.

But human cultures have pretty much finished the armed-invasions/migrations into regions where less-'developed' peoples lived. There aren't any territories populated only by scattered savages whose lands were easy takings for 'advanced' civilizations. That's left the competing groups and their cut-throat intramurals undercutting and sometimes slaughtering each other for commercial advantage. Shipping jobs overseas, eventually, shifts the wealth overseas, which reduces the domestic market, which also eventually levels-out the labor+transport costs.

Sure, the twaddling around while all that shakes out might make locales or aspects prosperous, but that's merely transient. It's the national and global infrastructures that must keep expanding, at least until a steady-state sustainable population and civilization become established. The smartest thing the US could do now is start building itself into a granular-scale renewable energy independence. That's an infrastructure, too, BTW.  

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 2:17:36 PM   
provfivetine


Posts: 410
Joined: 2/17/2011
Status: offline 		The path to economic prosperity is simple:

As Larry Summers said, it was unfortunate that the natural disasters--frequently occurring this year--couldn't have happened on a grander scale. Earthquakes, tsunami's, and other cataclysmic disasters are terrific stimulus measures for the economy; if only we could have more! It's a shame that the events of Japan, Thailand, and other far away nations, could not have happened here in the US! Imagine the economic stimulus if NYC had been hit by a large earthquake!

Unions and protectionism are great for economic growth, as they help negate the interests of evil capitalists and businessmen who exploit workers with wages and the alienating division of labor (economic prosperity would get a real boost once we abolished the use of money and the division of labor). The UAW is an example of a well-run union (co-op) and they have an excellent track record of stalwart leadership and accomplishments. It's about time we slap tariffs on those damn Chinese, since they just did so with our goods.

Also, I am happy to report that the minimum wage will be rising, which will help the economy even more. No longer will people be as exploited as they once were. The only bad thing is that we can't raise the minimum wage to $100/hour! We'd really be doing well then. Imagine a country where everyone makes 100/hour; we would be thrust into an era of unheard of prosperity! (It's too bad that these evil greedy capitalists and the Republicans are preventing everyone from making 100/hour.)

Furthermore, for perpetual growth--and this is the most important--interests rates should be set to a level that is lower than the actual market preference - the best rate is as close to zero as possible (it works especially well when real savings rate are down). This will allow the entire country to borrow money when they otherwise could not have borrowed money. Think of the positives!!! Americans around the country will be able to live the American dream by affording their own home, health care, and their kids' college tuition. (though this most certainly isn't enough, because we all have a right to a home, health care, and education.)

It is also important to invade other countries, in the name of democracy of course! If those brown people don't want democracy, then democracy will come to them! Remember, democracy is inevitable and the way of the future! It's okay if we impose our way of life on those who don't know better, because we know what they want more than they do! Think of the economic stimulus that will benefit all Americans when the US bombs bridges in foreign countries and then pays to rebuild them!

Of course, it is also essential to inflate the currency at will. More money equals more prosperity!!! The FED must monetize all its debt! PRINT PRINT PRINT PRINT PRINT PRINT!!!!

Now that I think of it... Obama needs to send out a 1 million dollar check to everyone in the 99% WE ARE ENTITLED TO IT!!! This is the way to true prosperity!


(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 3:00:24 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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quote:

And it doesn't take overt conspiracy for a machiavellian upper-crust to recognize that over-populated squalor provides a cheap labor resource,


And it is coming to us. It's already largely here, skilled wages ain't shit. Twenty years ago I mde $30-45 an hour, now I'm lucky to get $25 (or so). That may be partly my fault, but I know alot of others in the industry who are saying that more work and less pay is the American way now.

When you have two cars, pay the kid's tuition, have a seven thousand square foot house and a twenty five foot boat you are NOT going to work for the same money as someone who lives in a grass hut, eats bugs and gets their water from the river in jugs.

Do we deserve this opulence ? Perhaps in the past but not o nly has much of America lost it's work ethic through attrition*, the education system sucks.

* In this context I mean the attrition caused by lack of reward. Hard work is not rewarded, in fact some go so far as to say failure is rewarded now. There are so many fingers in the market you can't find the real market. Is it really right to make more on a product by selling it than those who made it ?

T^T

(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 3:04:18 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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quote:

The path to economic prosperity is simple:


My sarcasm detector just overloaded. Nice job.

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 3:09:08 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Every example of economic prosperity, since about the bronze-age or so, was the direct result of infrastructure development.


No. Many examples, yes. Every, no.

(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 3:10:32 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

Twenty years ago I mde $30-45 an hour


I have no trouble.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 3:24:21 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

The path to economic prosperity is getting out of these free trade deals and somehow forcing companies to bring off-shored jobs back.




This isnt possible though, since the free market has decided China is the place to build factories due to a cheap labour supply.

You cant have a free market while at the same time telling it where to produce goods.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The path to economic prosperity. - 12/28/2011 3:41:32 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		It's not just that Polite, their workers WORK. Most of them are literate as well.

Labo(u)r costs can't be the whole story, look at Germany for one. They don't work hard, they work smart. They don't work cheaper, they produce more.

Infrastructure can mean roads and bridges, water, sewage and kilowattage, but it can also mean modern factories with the right amount of automation. Where the employees are supported in doing their job with the right training and materials.

And as much as like to rail on the poor quality of the workforce in this country, management needs a BIG bite of the shit sandwich.

T^T

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 60
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