Curious.. (Full Version)

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di25 -> Curious.. (12/24/2011 6:14:38 AM)

Is self-mutilation a type of masochism or is it just something that some people are drawn to do? I've been doing it for years , off and on. I've put over 10,000 cuts on my body (arms , legs, chest). I've been to mental health but they couldn't explain the how or why of it, and I can't explain it either.



poise -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 6:45:20 AM)

Masochist

1. Psychiatry . a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends
on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.

2. a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.



MissImmortalPain -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 7:01:56 AM)

No, self harm and masochism are not the same thing. Though it can be hard at times to tell one from the other.



DarkSteven -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 7:27:37 AM)

In every case I've known (maybe five or so.  I know, it's not much), the self-cutting was a release, a way to deal with stress.



angelikaJ -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 7:40:40 AM)

Is any of the stuff in this article something you can relate to?

http://helpguide.org/mental/self_injury.htm



sheisreeds -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 8:16:40 AM)

Self harm and BDSM type consensual masochism are different things, but I'd argue they' both can be masochism, it just depends on what the person is getting out of the self harm. Some just do it to numb out and hate everything else about it.

Me? I loved the pain, the blood, the ritual of sterilizing, and the first aid. But it came from a place of self hatred and self destruction, and that's where it departs from BDSM. It was also often a compulsion, had an addictive aspect too it, and it was something I used to avoid my problems. Which is also where it departs from BDSM.

I had to get over the self harm completely before I could enjoy anything similar in a BDSM context. I've been self harm free since 2006, save 1 slip in 2010.

I wouldn't even consider blood play until I'd been clean from self injury for 3 years, and my psyche was healed. When my mindset starts to slip I go back to my support group, and get back on target. I also closely monitor me and blood play. I won't do it too often, we'll go through a spurt of scenes, and then we'll take a break from it for a few months and do something else.

Now I get to thoroughly enjoy blood and cutting in play, and it is away of bonding with my partner, versus being something that isolated me from everyone I cared about. The experience feels completely different, and comes from a healthy place.

Though I think the spot in my brain that likes blood play, and was drawn to self harm are pretty much the same. I'm drawn to blood, pain, and the feeling of my skin being sliced open. Been like that since I was a little kid.



MistrixMsE -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 8:42:37 AM)

I think it can be, but that depends on the psyche of the person doing it. Sometimes it is something deeper and unpleasant.. other times its a stress relief or a means of auto-erotic play, depends on the person.



Reform -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 9:35:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Is any of the stuff in this article something you can relate to?

http://helpguide.org/mental/self_injury.htm


If someone who self-harms does not relate to that article, is self-harm then ok? Is self-harm ALWAYS bad? When is self-harm masochism, or can it even be considered such?



SilverBoat -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 10:39:15 AM)

The link that Angelika contributed seems to cover a lot of the basics about cutting quite well.

I didn't read through all of its resources, but one thing I didn't see mentioned was the effects of endorphins on mood, mental state, addiction, and so forth.  

People can get addicted to all sorts of things that affect the neurochemical processes in their bodies and brains, not just ingested chemicals like nicotine, alcohol, drugs, etc. Internally produced stress hormones, in particular the endorphines, when triggered by things like fear, anger, pain, fatigue, etc, also cause very complex changes in mental perceptions.

Like the drugs, the hormones can cause feeling less pain, more powerful, less inhibited, more confidence, depersonalized, many other things. Chemically, the brain's and body's response are similar to opioid-narcotics, with the result that activities and behaviors that cause fear, anger, pain, fatigue etc can become habitual mechanisms of addiction. That's part of why some athletes get addicted to "runner's-high", why some people work themselves into rages, and why some self-hurting behaviors get repeated. (And everything from consensual S/M sceneplay to international warfare has been argued (and disputed) as somehow related to that, but that's a whole 'nother topic.)

Not everybody gets addicted that way, usually there's some other underlying complication involved, something social, mental, or inherited tendencies. An important point, I think, is to become aware of how those very basic biochemical and neurotransmitter processes of endorphines, are affecting your body, mind, thinking, habits, and behaviors. And another point to keep in mind, is that you, as an intelligent reasoning being, can recognize all of that, and change yourself if you want to.

Sure, it might take several tries, lots of weaning or cold-turkeying or whatever, but I know people who've been basically clean of drugs, cutting, raging, etc for many years, despite occasional relapses. It's like getting back on the horse or climbing back onto the boat; you shrug off the mistake, try not to repeat what lead up to it, and have another go.

SB



sheisreeds -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 12:00:32 PM)

Another similarity to other addictions is tolerance.

You have to cut deeper, and more to get the same high.

It also quickly becomes the go to response.

Cutting also tends to be a symptom of the problem, not the actual issue, it co-occurs with something else.

Most commonly: PTSD and related trauma disorders(I include borderline in this), eating disorders, dissociative disorder, alcoholism, inhalant and opiate addictions.

It can be a stand alone issue at times with adolescents, often with similar family dynamics as those who develop eating disorders. High pressure, regimented parenting or school environments with low levels of nurturing. Where kids have few internal resources for coping and are under a lot of stress.

The DSM V is actually going to include self injury in children and adolescents as it's own disorder.

Going back to the OP over 10000 cuts over the years? That's the sign of a problem. For peer support I've had good luck with http://buslist.org/, and Safe Alternatives http://selfinjury.com has some resources on finding a therapist trained in treating self injury. I highly recommend getting some kind of help.

Have I ever cut myself in a BDSM context?

Yes, sometimes my partner cuts me, and sometimes I'm doing it by myself, with him doing some other evil. Occasionally when working on art projects I've done things that make me bleed, like my avatar. The blood btw is real, but was not drawn by the knife in the photo, I used diabetic lancets.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 12:35:08 PM)

#1 - If you gave yourself those cuts out of sexual release, or enhancement, while masturbating or having sex because they enhanced your sexual experience, it's masochism.

#2 - If you gave yourself those cuts out of emotional release, because it quiets your frustration, relieves or distracts from emotional pain, it's not masochism, it's DSH. 

#3 - If you gave yourself those cuts just because you think the scars make pretty patterns, and you weren't rubbing one out or having emotional issues, then you are are into body mods. 

#4 - If you look at your scars thinking how beautiful you are while you admire yourself in front of a mirror, it's narcissism.  

... Hope that clears it up for ya'.  

If you answered yes to #1 or #3, and you like mature men with pretty red cages, call me.  I'd be glad to help you with the next 10,000 cuts.
[:)]



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 1:14:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: di25

Is self-mutilation a type of masochism or is it just something that some people are drawn to do? I've been doing it for years , off and on. I've put over 10,000 cuts on my body (arms, legs, chest). I've been to mental health but they couldn't explain the how or why of it, and I can't explain it either.



Then you went to the WRONG health professional.  Try another... "cutting" is hardly uncommon. 

And OF COURSE you can "explain" HOW you feel before/after you cut -- just maybe not WHY you cut.




Missokyst -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 2:39:32 PM)

Masochism is masochism. If you get off on pain for what ever reason you are a masochist. Those who are into BDSM tend to want to put a spin on it to clean it up and make it more acceptable, by separating it from "the stuff that they find acceptable" because "all other ways of expressing it are sick".

But, if yours is such that you have that many cuts and no way to explain it emotionally or mentally, then you might have a degree of OCD attached.

I have been a cutter both for sexual grats and for emotional relief, but those times are not my normal state of being. The closest thing I can equate it to is being a smoker who has quit and for what ever reasons needs to take a puff now and then.


And as pointed out by Poise

quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

Masochist

1. Psychiatry . a person who has masochism, the condition in which sexual or other gratification depends
on one's suffering physical pain or humiliation.
2. a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.




angelikaJ -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 2:52:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: di25

Is self-mutilation a type of masochism or is it just something that some people are drawn to do? I've been doing it for years , off and on. I've put over 10,000 cuts on my body (arms , legs, chest). I've been to mental health but they couldn't explain the how or why of it, and I can't explain it either.



It occurred to me when I first read this that the fact you know there have been that many cuts tells me that something about cutting is very important to you.



quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds



Going back to the OP over 10000 cuts over the years? That's the sign of a problem. For peer support I've had good luck with http://buslist.org/, and Safe Alternatives http://selfinjury.com has some resources on finding a therapist trained in treating self injury. I highly recommend getting some kind of help.




She has been there and understands. This is very good advice.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Curious.. (12/24/2011 9:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: di25

Is self-mutilation a type of masochism or is it just something that some people are drawn to do? I've been doing it for years , off and on. I've put over 10,000 cuts on my body (arms , legs, chest). I've been to mental health but they couldn't explain the how or why of it, and I can't explain it either.


I'm thinking, a little pain is kinda what many of us are all into on some level, be it emotional or physical.

If you find yourself attempting to cut your head off....I'd go see someone.

(Well....that is....if you still can of course).

(See, I mean).

(You know...being that your head wasn't on top of your shoulders anymore and all).

You have an automatic transmission and can drive with one hand can't you?



Kana -> RE: Curious.. (12/25/2011 7:01:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: di25

Is self-mutilation a type of masochism or is it just something that some people are drawn to do? I've been doing it for years , off and on. I've put over 10,000 cuts on my body (arms, legs, chest). I've been to mental health but they couldn't explain the how or why of it, and I can't explain it either.



Then you went to the WRONG health professional.  Try another... "cutting" is hardly uncommon. 

And OF COURSE you can "explain" HOW you feel before/after you cut -- just maybe not WHY you cut.




Exactly. I've a few friends who are/have been cutters.
If whoever you talked to didn't know shit about cutting you went to the way wrong person.
Type cutters anonymous into google, check out the results.

What you do may or may not be maso, but there are lots of folks out there who cut for reasons that have nothing to do with TTTWD.





sheisreeds -> RE: Curious.. (12/25/2011 7:12:05 AM)

The 12 step version actually goes by "Self Mutilators Anonymous", and they don't have a huge following.

http://selfmutilatorsanonymous.webs.com/

They're aren't a whole lot of in person meetings, though they run a pretty tight 12 step chat on the AA/NA network.

http://buslist.org their forum is great, it doesn't run on 12 step, but I've been a member there since 2006 and it's a good place for support. They have some really well structured forums that run like interactive workbooks. The Before & After forum, and the workshop forum are some of the best therapy I've ever done. The board has a really supportive set of rules, no talk of injury type, depth, or tools. No numbers except for days clean allowed.

You know as a general response to this thread, I get snark, and humor. Though when people post on this board and there is even a hint of alcoholism everyone gets on board with the person getting some help. Self injury is no different, 10,000 cuts is not a small number (and doesn't really matter whether or not it was exaggerated), if someone who wanted to play with me told me that I'd get them into a mental health assessment before I touched a hair on their head.

That comes from a recovered self injurer, blood player, and psychotherapist.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Curious.. (12/25/2011 7:58:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

The 12 step version actually goes by "Self Mutilators Anonymous", and they don't have a huge following.

http://selfmutilatorsanonymous.webs.com/

They're aren't a whole lot of in person meetings, though they run a pretty tight 12 step chat on the AA/NA network.

http://buslist.org their forum is great, it doesn't run on 12 step, but I've been a member there since 2006 and it's a good place for support. They have some really well structured forums that run like interactive workbooks. The Before & After forum, and the workshop forum are some of the best therapy I've ever done. The board has a really supportive set of rules, no talk of injury type, depth, or tools. No numbers except for days clean allowed.

You know as a general response to this thread, I get snark, and humor. Though when people post on this board and there is even a hint of alcoholism everyone gets on board with the person getting some help. Self injury is no different, 10,000 cuts is not a small number (and doesn't really matter whether or not it was exaggerated), if someone who wanted to play with me told me that I'd get them into a mental health assessment before I touched a hair on their head.

That comes from a recovered self injurer, blood player, and psychotherapist.


I think that is because alcoholism never can be confused with BDSM.  In case you haven't noticed people here don't want to suggest getting help for something that *might be* kink.



Kana -> RE: Curious.. (12/25/2011 8:38:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sheisreeds

You know as a general response to this thread, I get snark, and humor. Though when people post on this board and there is even a hint of alcoholism everyone gets on board with the person getting some help. Self injury is no different, 10,000 cuts is not a small number (and doesn't really matter whether or not it was exaggerated), if someone who wanted to play with me told me that I'd get them into a mental health assessment before I touched a hair on their head.

That comes from a recovered self injurer, blood player, and psychotherapist.



You have a point, but I think the roots for this are twofold.

1-The question is couched in BDSM terms, and thus, most are responding from a BDSM point of view
2-Cutting is still pretty underground and is mostly completely misunderstood. Not a lot of people know about it or see it as an illness in itself. There's a whole lot of judgement laid down on cutters.
3-I'm a hard ass edge player, but yeah, 10,000 cuts would have me mucho worried too.



sheisreeds -> RE: Curious.. (12/25/2011 9:14:06 AM)

And I get all that, just making a point it seems that most people agree with.

And I get the stigma, and the misconceptions, and how this was raised in a kinky context.

Though in reality this chica has a serious problem.

I'm a hard ass edge player too, and an edge player who loves edges.

And let me say for the record recovery was worth it, I get to do all this crazy shit without the emotional hang-ups.

I get to do it because I like it, not because I feel compelled to.




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