Sign of the times

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ArtCatDom -> Sign of the times (5/30/2006 3:55:34 AM)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060530/ap_on_re_us/wiccan_soldier;_ylt=AjwF8u.gzT.MLMlx.hRPlY9vzwcF;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA-- The Supreme Court forced States to recognize Wicca (and related neo-pagan traditions) as a legitimate religion in 1985. Wicca is one of the religions you can have inscribed on your dog tags (so that if you are killed or incapacitated you (or your remains) may be handled appropriately. While you serve in the military, they will make reasonable accomodations so you can practice Wicca. You can volunteer with the Chaplain's office to run events and services for pagans. You can have a pagan priest(ess) preside over your marriage, funeral, et al as a member of the military. What's the problem here? meow

petwolf22 -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 8:46:34 AM)
religious tolerance, my foot. Only when it's convenient to them and no one will see anything.

Moloch -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 9:48:49 AM)
PorchCat post this on "gunsnet" the liberitarians there will go bezerk over that, plus they can actually get media time and the ball rolling!!!

NakedOnMyChain -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 9:57:17 AM)
That's absolutely ridiculous. It's also very unsettling. I served in the Army Reserves and am Wiccan. One of my best friends spent two years in Iraq in the Army, and is Wiccan. It's frightening to think that we could potentially have given up our lives for a country we love, and wouldn't even be granted the common courtesy of acknowledgement of our religion at our funeral and in our final resting place. Does the phrase, "Goddess Bless America" scare people that much?

ArtCatDom -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 1:07:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petwolf22 religious tolerance, my foot. Only when it's convenient to them and no one will see anything. If you mean the military, I disagree. I was in some remote places in the world and they always allowed me my religious observances, such as they are. As an example, myself (I'm not Wiccan) and other mystically minded soldiers were granted limited passes to attend vodou services while we occupied Haiti. I'd say that's pretty permissive! But overall I met quite a number of soldiers with neo-pagan and mystically orientated religions and never did I hear a story about any real impediments to their religious practice, except for one old-timer. If you mean those who are in control of the civilian staffed bureacracy in question (the VA), then we're in utter agreement. For reference, he did have the proper funeral of his choice. However, they are dictating what religious beliefs can be displayed on his grave and his place on the memorial. To me, limiting their memorial markers (grave or otherwise) in such a fashion is nearly as bad as interfering with the burial. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 1:09:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moloch PorchCat post this on "gunsnet" the liberitarians there will go bezerk over that, plus they can actually get media time and the ball rolling!!! I would sincerely hope this would be sickening to anyone, whether libertarian, liberal or conservative or whatever else. If you could pass this on to GunsNet for me, I'd appreciate it. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 1:13:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain That's absolutely ridiculous. It's also very unsettling. I served in the Army Reserves and am Wiccan. One of my best friends spent two years in Iraq in the Army, and is Wiccan. It's frightening to think that we could potentially have given up our lives for a country we love, and wouldn't even be granted the common courtesy of acknowledgement of our religion at our funeral and in our final resting place. Does the phrase, "Goddess Bless America" scare people that much? Please don't worry about the military itself on this one. They are incredibly good about respecting that right. JAG officers are more than happy to nip any potential problems in the bud before they even really become a serious issue. However, it frightens me that an organization willing to pick and choose rights for the veterens that have served is the one supposedly serving those very veterens. Isn't the purpose of the VA to help veterens? (Unfortunately this story matches my every experience with the VA, which is the impression that they and their regulations exist to confound and frustrate veterens.) meow

Moloch -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 1:18:28 PM)
Done and posted

electro3180 -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 1:21:19 PM)
I am RA15900799 and I do not CARE who knows that I am not a "Christian Sheeple". Electro

darq -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 1:30:12 PM)
Please refrain from referring to Christians as Sheeples ... Especially since nowhere in that article does it compare Wiccans to Christians or any other religion ... Don't turn this into something its not. I gotta wonder, and I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but where does all this hate come from and what do you really hope to accomplish with it? Do you think you're going to shame Christians into hiding or something? And when I say you, its both a general and specific you ...

darq -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 2:00:07 PM)
"A war widow who wants the government to put a Wiccan religious symbol on her husband's memorial plaque held an alternative service Monday as a protest, hours before an official Memorial Day ceremony nearby." OK ... Wait ... Are there other religious symbols on the plaques of other soldiers? Or is this just something that she thought of and is now throwing a fit over? Hmm ...

petwolf22 -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 2:04:29 PM)
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=36377&archive=true There it is, right there...they have 38 approved symbols to be put on the memorial plaques, but no Wiccan symbols are on that list. i have no issue with military religious tolerance...in fact know very little about it. It's the organization's intolerance about it i have a problem with.

darq -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 2:11:28 PM)
"But Wiccans do not have a central governing structure, and officials that forced them to rebuff earlier attempts to get the pentacle approved. Last fall the cemetery administration updated its rules, and now only requires historic information about the religion and other documentation supporting the use of a specific faith symbol. But administrators did fast-track an application in 2004 to put allow a Sikh symbol to be put on veteran’s headstones. Stewart said she is frustrated that Wiccans did not receive the same consideration." OK I don't know what Sikh is and I'll do a google on it in a moment, however, it seems like the powers that be are lacking a little more information ... The fact that Wicca hasn't really been around that long (in comparison to other religious faiths) may have something to do with it ... Regardless, I think it would be more important to me that his name be on the wall than that there be a symbol alongside his name ...

petwolf22 -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 2:32:10 PM)
so if it were a Christian man and his wife was told she couldn't put a cross on his plaque to honor his beliefs, that would be alright? So long as he at least gets his name up there, she shouldn't complain? And pagan religions (which is what modern Wicca is based on) are historically quite old, and date back further than Christianity.

SilentHunter -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 2:49:52 PM)
Its not really the military that is the main issue, (though you have to state your religious orientation when you join (usually one of the main two religion's in the UK)). I served in Desert Storm, which is nothing like this one, nor am I going to get into the ramifications. The people that look after the headstones/memorials are the ones that say Yay or Nay, so its them that the Widow should takethe issue up NOT the military in general.

meatcleaver -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 2:53:36 PM)
Virtually nothing is known of pre-christian European religions. Most of what we consider pagan beliefs are a late 19th century-early 20th century invention. Tribal cultures didn't have a written tradition so what little we do know comes from the Romans and later the Christians. Both unreliable sources because it was in both their interests to negate native beliefs. There is evidence of human sacrifice but this has been challenged, as has most rites put forward, so you pay your money and take your pick. Wiccan isn't ancient, it is rather like Celtic culture as opposed to a broader north European culture, an invention.

petwolf22 -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 3:09:06 PM)
Yes and a lot of what we know about pagan beliefs comes from Christian sources...doesn't make them accurate. Christianity and every other religion was ultimately an "invention" by humanity. Is there a minimum time limit that something has to be around before it's respectable? And the point ultimately is still that the Supreme Court has recognized Wicca as a religion for over 20 years. Apparently even atheists get a symbol? http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm

meatcleaver -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 3:19:47 PM)
All I am saying Wiccan isn't ancient, its modern. That doesn't nullify it as a belief but it definitely isn't ancient. Every year druids want to perform a winter solitice ceremony at Stonehenge when there is no evidence at all that Stonehenge had anything to do with druids, even though many people believe it has, that doesn't make it a fact. People are free to believe what they want, it's a free country.

darq -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 3:41:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petwolf22 so if it were a Christian man and his wife was told she couldn't put a cross on his plaque to honor his beliefs, that would be alright? So long as he at least gets his name up there, she shouldn't complain? And pagan religions (which is what modern Wicca is based on) are historically quite old, and date back further than Christianity. Yes, it would be fine ...

darq -> RE: Sign of the times (5/30/2006 3:43:26 PM)
I find it extremely amusing that anyone is trying to turn this into a battle between Christians and Wiccans ... This has NOTHING to do with Christians ...

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