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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:01:23 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

To me, income inequality is simply another phrase to make people believe they are entitled to something, that they are missing out on something someone else has.  But in the end, this country is full of people who have gone from the poorest of the poor to being top CEO's of companies.  Opportunity in this country isn't gone, it simply that it's hard, it takes work, sacrifice and such.  MOST people don't want to be top CEOs becuase they don't want to put the blood sweat and tears into what it takes to be a TOP CEO, you know the small number who are getting all these bonus' and compensation packages.   There is a difference between TOP CEO's and most CEO's.  But people don't want to realize that. 



another very misguided view of reality.

you need to start climbing that corporate ladder and see how long your buns stay attached to your body.

there is no way to compare someone on wall street who uses an auto trading program to net 20% per month while playing golf to someone one working in mikey d's.

YOu talk about hard work that is a fantasy, more like who you can fuck so they come back for more.

Hell politicians do it every few years so how can you argue with that kind of success.

I know several people who have literally given up their life and sacrificed everything to make a buck or 2 and retire and have it all sucked up by forces beyond their control.

you describe a fantasy world.  sorry

oh and I wont even get into the arena that will get you suicided where the little guy can make seriously big money and never live long enough to see it.  um legally of course.

I wont mention the arizona judge who had a lead lunch because someone didnt like the way he was going to rule on a case.

That is why all this shit is a fantasy, in the famous words of George carlin "they own this fucking place".






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 12/28/2011 4:08:31 PM >


_____________________________

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:13:40 PM   
kdsub


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Are their companies run into the ground?... a better example

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:14:07 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

I pick this one because that poster is of course unmitigated bullshit and is really capitalist propaganda. Oh, and it most surely is as has been so prolifically demonstrated, the capitalist is the biggest whore and thief the world has ever produced. I offer you wall street as legally empowerd thieves as having purchased laws or bribed their way to wealth. Wall street ddoes NOT serve society at all, is aa leach on society the bulk of its population belonging in jail.

Income inequality is a natural occurrence of all economies as there is educational, experience and effort inequalities.

The problem is not income inequality except for that as reflected by the financial raping of investors in the corporation when executive pay has risen above all reason and morality. That is supposed to be the responsibility of management boards and stock holders. But the capitalist comes up with paper (stock) new paper (different 'classes' of the same stock) to sell to the money losing public and mutual funds, 'prints' that paper and sells it with terms that do not allow for corporate democracy. Boards of directors are a chummy club serving on many boards and couldn't give a flying fuck about stock holders and often creditors too. The capitalist is ready willing and able to...fuck everybody.

The OWS group doesn't know how to articulate the truth as well as the capitalist can articulate his lies.

The real problem and few people seem to be able to grasp the concept is the utter immorality in legally and for TAX purposes...calling 'income' something else. What do I mean ? You work for a salary, make real good money and it is called income just as you describe in your OP. You pay 35% federal tax.

One buys anything and holds it for a year, makes the same and often quite a bit more and that income is called capital gains. (or carried interest...whatever that is) Nice ring to it hey ? Makes as much as you...yet subject to only a 15% federal tax. For every 35 cents you pay in taxes, 'investors' pay 20 cents less. Now they get to reinvest that 20 cents in more 'capital gains' that will again result in only a 15% tax.

That results in capitals gains being almost ALL of investors income, making their millions in gains subject to only a 15% rate. So what we debate here is the inequality that govt. treats incomes, not income inequality. The resulting ability to keep an additional 20 cents on the dollar, allows for what is called a govt. subsidy aiding the wealth factor. That's the ability for example how Bloomberg, mayor of NY is now worth 5 times what he had when first elected. ($3+billion to $16+billion) That's 500% increase in wealth in what...12 years and almost all of which was taxed at 15%.

Who wrote this ?

“The necessities of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all of the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon the house-rents, therefore, would in general fall the heaviest upon the rich and in this sort of inequality, there would not perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more...than in that proportion.”


Modedit to remove excessive quotes.


< Message edited by ModTwentyOne -- 12/29/2011 12:33:55 AM >

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:15:57 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

It happened in many of the companys that went skint, therefore the said CEO`s had no job to keep.


Then it is not a good business practice and will never be prevalent in the business world.

Butch

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:18:35 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

This can explain why Albert Pujols will make more money in one at-bat than an entire village in Swaziland


Nope...stupidity explains that... said a St Louis Cardinal fan...me

Cardianl red blooded Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:18:53 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
“The necessities of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all of the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon the house-rents, therefore, would in general fall the heaviest upon the rich and in this sort of inequality, there would not perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more...than in that proportion.”


Adam Smith wrote that in The Wealth of Nations. However, it's a stretch to compare social and economic conditions in 1770's Scotland to the United States in 2011.

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:22:10 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The OWS group doesn't know how to articulate the truth as well as the capitalist can articulate his lies.




now that was precious!

DAMN good one man!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:25:01 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
“The necessities of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all of the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon the house-rents, therefore, would in general fall the heaviest upon the rich and in this sort of inequality, there would not perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more...than in that proportion.”


Adam Smith wrote that in The Wealth of Nations. However, it's a stretch to compare social and economic conditions in 1770's Scotland to the United States in 2011.


you need to study inflation.  "generally" speaking if you subtract inflation a gallon of milk costs as much today as it did then.

what is failing is the wages, they do not keep up.

there is a reason for it though.  its not pretty either.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:25:55 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then it is not a good business practice and will never be prevalent in the business world.

Butch



Sadly though, history shows differently. Bad directors usually get off scot free although some end up in prison. Most just move on, or retire rich, and other greedy directors just take their place.

Even at a small level company directors run up massive debts and the companies folds, often to start under a new name a week later. ( At least in the UK )
To get around being barred as being a director the common ruse is to name your wife or son to run the new firm, you just work as an "Employee" this is commonly called a Phoenix company over here, as it rises from the ashes. It is legal, but only just, it certainly isnt moral.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:27:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Then you'll have to enlighten me.


As you command, Master Tim.

Income inequality, as it has been used for the past year, refers to the disparity among groups... but not based upon what each individual makes. The common thread in almost every reply... with a few notable exceptions... has been about making incomes "equal".

I dont deserve to make what Pujols makes, I am not as talented as he. Nor do I deserve to make what a rock star makes, that is a talent I do not possess ( as the man likes to remind me when I sing). Talent should be rewarded by those that believe the talent is worth rewarding.

It doesnt refer to income differences. I would not expect to make anything close to what a CEO makes. And, of course, two people can be hired for the same job and one may make a bit more than the other. Again, no issue .. to a point. The points are not for this thread.

It is not about getting "something for nothing". Beyond popular opinion,. most people prefer to earn what they make. Something extremely satisfying about earning that pay check.

Its about income level disparity, if we really wish to break it down that way. Its about those at the bottom of the rung who are perpetually made to feel bad about being at that level. Those jobs used to be for the kids in high school and college.. a way to start up that ladder. Recent events have shown that the ladder is missing a few rungs and others above those missing rungs are laughing at those below it.

Its about the top 1% being able to buy an election, being able to buy Congress. Its about the bottom being told to take what they can get and be glad they are getting that much. Its about the middle feeling perpetually squeezed between the two groups, always knowing they are just a few paychecks away from being in the bottom half, or a few ideas from being in the upper realms.

Someone mentioned a living wage. Interestingly enough, there is a bill in Congress now waiting to come out of committee. It never will. Business and the 1% will decide it wont see the light of day. The poverty level of 3 plus 15% is just too much, they will decide. I figured it out else where.. its about 10.25 an hour.

And what happens IF this becomes the law? Business raises prices, rents rise, taxes rise.. all costs rise. Making that "extra" useless.

Butch mentioned the following...

quote:

Good would be the 1 percent in your way of thinking... decent would cover the basics of life with some left over for entertainment of various kinds...minimal would just cover the very base necessities of life. The difference between them would be drive and education...with a bit of luck.


Minimal... I know many people who work 40 hours a week, and cant make his "minimal" standard. And yet that is where the 1% want to keep the 50%. Do they care if a few break free and rise? Not at all. They can point to those people and declare "They did it, why cant you? you are just lazy!" Then you see these same people treating those "minimal" workers like crap... but complain that there are not enough "minimal" workers to prevent them from having to wait. I will explain the difference between "decent" and "minimal".. the ability to sleep at night and the ability to survive.

Its about one group of "income level" keeping another group of "income level" under their thumb. From education to cost of living to income and on... thats the "income inequality" that many are complaining about today. Not the ability to make the same amount of money.

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:27:59 PM   
SilverBoat


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Income inequality? ... I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone's income to be equal, if only because (and the rightwingnutz like a stopped clock can be correct sometimes) that diffuses the motivation to work fairly for the individual or common benefit, and diffuses it into a zero-sum direction. (And ranting about unfairness of equal-income is a frequent rightwing strawman, but even the dreaded-red-chinese-commies don't impose equal-income.) So, if only to keep people motivated to put in more effort is to provide more reward, then there will have to be some income inequalities to keep the whole system from spiraling downward into subsistence-level slavery.  

(Yeah, income, reward, effort, etc all have rather broad definitions in all that, but the gists should be clear enough.)



< Message edited by SilverBoat -- 12/28/2011 4:29:45 PM >

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:29:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

you need to study inflation.  "generally" speaking if you subtract inflation a gallon of milk costs as much today as it did then.

what is failing is the wages, they do not keep up.

there is a reason for it though.  its not pretty either.



A good point well made, business usually goes to the cheapest labour source. All this work hard and get paid hard bullshit works, until your company, or at least the directors, decides to move where wages are cheaper.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:29:20 PM   
Real0ne


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fr there was a short period there a dollar was equal to a dollar in around 1933.

if you put a million bucks in the bank, was paid 6% interest paid a modest 20% on profits for taxes took it all out in 2009 you would have how much after deducting inflation?

yeh about 600,000

now ask yourself who is collecting that "monetary" inflation?  

Those in the 1% easily shield themselves from it.  the rest of the world gets to bend over and smile.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:30:22 PM   
SilverBoat


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There have been some interesting and reasonably sound experiments on how people and groups perceive "fairness", and on how they act to impose fairness if they can see how to do that, using various methods to reward cooperative fairness, and to punish cheaters. (Many links were posted in other threads, I forget which ones.)

IMHO, the best compromise of ethics, practice, durability, etc involves setting some baseline for work-and-income that provides a comfortable living for consciencious labor. Sure, sorting out the ranges of ability from ranges of effort could take some doing; how much more or less does a back-woods IQ-80 moron who busts his ass digging ditches 60-hrs/wk deserve in comparison to a silver-spoon IQ-150 dilettante who spends 2-hrs/day tweaking his portfolio? Where do the rest of us, clerks, drivers, engineers, surgeons, teachers, and undertakers fit on that spectrum?

One canard that needs quashing is that there ever is or can be so-called equal-opportunity. Some people simply don't and won't ever have the smarts to perceive the opportunities that other people take for granted. A modest leveling of expectations is all that's really possible. And then there's that whole "entitlement" jiujitsu that the rightwing-wealthy (whose mindset holds themselves as entitled to wealth and power by virtue of superior breeding, aggression, etc)  have foisted off as a curse-word onto the mandatory-insurance programs that hundred-millions of less fortunate people were forced to support with payroll taxes.

The only equitable, egalitarian, politics-as-the-art/science-of-the-possible solution, IMHO, is that will always be some differences in income, some of those obviously or arguably less fair than others. The best we'll be able to do is to impose some constraints that keep matters fair-enough to function. Since increased income and wealth provide more leverage to further concentrate income and wealth, control-theory suggests that a progressive negative-feedback is the only workable solution, since the 'markets' for all that obviously don't provide a stable long-term self-regulation.

Here's what I'd suggest: Peg an initial upper-limit on income taxes (on all income/profits/gains/etc) of 50%. Peg a lower-limit those income-taxes at 0% per individual/couple/dependents/etc that's proportioned (probably a small multiple) to poverty-level cost-of-living. That would roughly balance the current US budget. Tweak the upper percentage if needed. Any corporate income retained is taxed as above, any paid as dividends sums on the recepients' returns. Simplicity, transparency. And a 1000% tariff on contracted lobbying of elected officials or gov't employees, all payments to be public record, online, same-day. Same for campaign contributions in cash or kind. No charge for constituent contact with their elected.

Yeah, that simplification would put (hundred?) thousands of lawyers and lobbists out of work, but there's always ditches that need digging somewhere ...



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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:30:43 PM   
kdsub


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No doubt it happens...but not as often and DomKen seems to think...I believe anyway. CEO's are most often beholding to board members and their employees and must ultimately please them or they are replaced.

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:37:53 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

you need to study inflation.


Actually, I have.


quote:

  "generally" speaking if you subtract inflation a gallon of milk costs as much today as it did then.

what is failing is the wages, they do not keep up.

there is a reason for it though.  its not pretty either.



The differences in the standard of living between Georgian Era Scotland and post-Internet boom America have next to nothing to do with inflation. Prior to 1910, there is just about no correlation between inflation rates in the United States and those of Great Britain nor is there any case that rates of industrialization, worker productivity or real per capita income have any correlation to inflation rates.

If you're basing all of the changes from the 1770s to today, worldwide, on inflation - I would suggest you need to expand your economic model a little.


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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:47:43 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

To me, income inequality is simply another phrase to make people believe they are entitled to something, that they are missing out on something someone else has. But in the end, this country is full of people who have gone from the poorest of the poor to being top CEO's of companies. Opportunity in this country isn't gone, it simply that it's hard, it takes work, sacrifice and such. MOST people don't want to be top CEOs becuase they don't want to put the blood sweat and tears into what it takes to be a TOP CEO, you know the small number who are getting all these bonus' and compensation packages. There is a difference between TOP CEO's and most CEO's. But people don't want to realize that.

angel

The very accusation in your first line is bullshit unless of course you speak of the inequality of how income is defined and taxed and how 'investment' income is really earned. I tire of such ridiculous charges and insults. If there is anybody in this country that feels he is entitled to anything, it is the capitalist.

He's entitled to use your retirement money, to leverage it (borrow further) all to satisfy unparalled greed. Pay 15% federal tax and when he blows it out his ass [he] becomes 'entitled' to a bailout and...AND a fucking bonus. Get real people. As far as your pedestrian income goes, you pay 35%. As far as my capital gains or carried interest [sic] goes, I am special, you didn't know that little girl but...I pay only 15%. Now that's my kind of equality. The capitalist is entitled to rape public small investors with their outlandish, immoral pay.

The capitalist making only capital gains, is entitled to a 15% tax rate and oh, what genius, can and often does make ALL of their income from gains. So while you bust your ass and pay likely 35%, I the capitalist is entitled to the inequality of income outcomes. Keep spread'n the word though girl, you are my kind of believer. I LOVE the wealth factor (multiplier) in being able to reinvest the 20 cents on the dollar you can't because you pay the govt. for me. Mine is earned while at the golf course while you make somebody else rich bust'n butt 40-60 hrs a week.

That's my (investor's) kind of equality [sic] and why as a greedy capitalist...wanted Herman Cain. He proposed zero capital gains and carried interest tax. That would ruin our economy completely because it would increase unemployment geometrically, while the great capitalist and investor's 'income' would be all gains etc. and...never pay another penny in federal tax.

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:48:10 PM   
SilverBoat


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Beholden to employees? ... What fraction of stock do the employees hold? ... What members of the board are major stockholders, or hold major stakes via layers and leverage of investment companies, vehicles, contracts, etc?

Or perhaps more relevant, who controls the compensation committees? How else would those departing execs crank away with $Mns (or $Bns) when their time in office cost the stockholders $100-Bns in equity?

Really. Beholden? To please who? Maybe just the few cronies who were wealthy enough and clever enough and connected enough to time a reverse-spider bet on the company stock and thereby profit when it lost value?

Maybe that sound harsh, but there is a whole different 'reality' to the 'financial' realms in which those people operate, and they aim to keep the 'little' people ignorant or worse about it for as long as they can.

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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:48:22 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No doubt it happens...but not as often and DomKen seems to think...I believe anyway. CEO's are most often beholding to board members and their employees and must ultimately please them or they are replaced.


But not on Wall Street (nor the City of London) or any other firm seen to be making massive profits.

Clinton and Bush jnr as well as Brown and Blair, avoided any kind of regulation in the financial markets for one reason, and one reason only. Those markets were making billions in revenue for the governments either side of the Atlantic. People in Government were keen to let them carry on, and claim that the free market was keen, simply as to not rock the boat. It was the same with industry and large manufacturing companies providing record profits year in year out, despite signs that this wasnt feasable

Anyone such as Brooksley Born who wanted to enforce the regulation was effectlively hamstrung by the US Treasury. Vince Cable was admonished in the Commons by Gordon Brown for daring to announce the impending storm. When the proverbial hit the fan in 2008, there was blind panic that a domino effect would take place, hence the decisions by Paulson and Brown for the bailouts. The point is so much was tied up in interbank lending, insurance on Credit Default Swaps and derivatives, on card pulled from the deck would have collapsed the whole house, despite what some on here would tell you.

Another major storm on the horizon for the west could be far greater, the amount of money owed by the general public, who were enticed by what seemed like never ending credit lines and low interest rates to get into a deep hole, debt wise. Anyone like to guess what would happen if they need to raise interest rates to lets say by 2.0% in years ahead to calm inflation ?


(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Income inequality - 12/28/2011 4:51:28 PM   
kdsub


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I'm not sure what you are talking about... I am saying CEO's that run their companies to ground will not stay employed. Your examples are of CEO's that are making massive profits... two different things or am I missing something.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 60
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