RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills?

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seababy -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 7:58:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Epytropos I don't fall into the in particular (as perhaps you can tell from my extensive life skills[;)]), but this is an interesting topic so I thought I'd sacrifice some of my considerable celebrity and take a series of unpopular stands on it. After all, what is life without good enemies, right? Firstly let me make the disclaimer that I do not subscribe to the notion of so-called life skills. If we take the most "successful" (and I place that in quotations since I am using it in the traditional sense, which I do not subscribe to either) people, what will we find in common among them? Will we find the ability to cope with pressure? I suspect we will not. Turing was prone to panic attacks, Gaius Octavius could charitably have been described as whiny and cowardly, and Churchill turned to drink when there was so much as a garbage strike. How about people skills? You know you were thinking it. Kafka couldn't even interact with people he didn't know, Einstein survived socialization solely because he didn't believe in free will, and of course, returning to the time of that most famous of Triumvirates, Ptolemy XIV refused abjectly to speak to anyone if he could help it. We'll call that one off, then. Financial planning? Trump has been bankrupt 14(?) times. Thomas Jefferson spent 120k on wine in a single term despite already being deep in debt. I could do this all day. In short, life skills, as a concept, are bullshit. That said, even with that being aptly demonstrated as only I can, we can nonetheless follow a parallel line of inquiry and ask ourselves this: Are subs inherently a personality type well-suited to deal with the world without a dom in their life? To this I can only answer 'no.' There are exceptions, as with everything, but it has been my experience that most subs function in the absence of a dominant principally through the building of walls and the support of friends and family and so forth. They are functional, but not in the same way a nilla is functional, rather more strained, as if a facsimile. Similarly, it has been my experience that doms (and I don't mean just me, though I notice it in myself to be sure) in the absence of a submissive personality develop a kind of listless antagonism. Often there is a savior complex involved as well, though I've lost that in recent years, a need to help and support everyone. It is perhaps a more functional mindset, a more sustainable one, but no less false. Does this mean that unattached subs (or doms for that matter) are going to necessarily have lives in shambles? Of course not. Does it mean that all subs drowning for want of rescue? Not really. Does it mean that there is going to be a correlation between fucked up lives and unattached practitioners? Quite likely So, at the risk of falling in with the "spectacularly clueless" as I so often seem to when putting forward a carefully-considered positions, I would say that yes, there definitely is that component. A submissive is inherently someone for whom control is anathema, and it has been my experience that there are very few situations in which you will find a person who is fantastic at that which they do not and will not practice. It isn't an insult, it isn't a value judgment, a discussion of worth, it's simply an observation. As a rule, reality is rarely pleasant. On a lighter note, I initially read your name as seanbaby and thought I had gained surprising and rather strange insight into an author. Mais, non. ETA: This wasn't to OsideGirl in particular, I just loaded and wandered away and when I got back there were people between quick reply and I (if that makes sense). Ok figured out whose quote that was sorry my original post stuffed up the quote so it looked like it was all me posting.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 8:01:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seababy Is this all bollocks and I just managed to interact with the spectacularly clueless? (I must admit I went about looking in just the right way to attract HNGs. I've learnt since then.) I don't think it's all bolllocks, but I do think it depends a lot on where and how you look. Probably the largest percentage of genuinely sub women I have found was on a sugardaddy web site. They wanted to give control over to a man and be taken care of. Some qualified as "gold diggers," but the women I met in real life were tired of being alone and responsible for everything, and wanted a guy to be the leader. By contrast, women on CM tended to be kinkier, but that doesn't have too much to do with being submissive, even if they want to be tied up and beaten. It's much like a femdom's complaint about male do-me subs. There isn't much connection between someone's kinks and the role that person prefers to play in a relationship. On a personal note, I think your own best filter for finding a dom is your humor, which, as I recall, is frikkin hilarious. EDITED TO ADD: The women on the SD site told me there were quite a few guys on the site who owned businesses or were execs and who were looking to be "strict" with someone. So there are definitely "high end" doms if you look in the right places.

seababy -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 8:02:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seababy I don't fall into the in particular (as perhaps you can tell from my extensive life skills[;)]), but this is an interesting topic so I thought I'd sacrifice some of my considerable celebrity and take a series of unpopular stands on it. After all, what is life without good enemies, right? Firstly let me make the disclaimer that I do not subscribe to the notion of so-called life skills. If we take the most "successful" (and I place that in quotations since I am using it in the traditional sense, which I do not subscribe to either) people, what will we find in common among them? You equating lifeskills with fame and fame with success. In terms of potential partners who would be making decisions as to how my life develops I would not pick one of these people. I think your reasoning is faulty. Will we find the ability to cope with pressure? I suspect we will not. Turing was prone to panic attacks, Gaius Octavius could charitably have been described as whiny and cowardly, and Churchill turned to drink when there was so much as a garbage strike. How about people skills? You know you were thinking it. Kafka couldn't even interact with people he didn't know, Einstein survived socialization solely because he didn't believe in free will, and of course, returning to the time of that most famous of Triumvirates, Ptolemy XIV refused abjectly to speak to anyone if he could help it. We'll call that one off, then. Financial planning? Trump has been bankrupt 14(?) times. Thomas Jefferson spent 120k on wine in a single term despite already being deep in debt. I could do this all day. In short, life skills, as a concept, are bullshit. This is the stuffed up post. My reply is in red all the black is actually credited to Epytropos. Sorry Epytropos

seababy -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 8:08:12 PM)
Thanks Red. [:)] Lovely to "see" you again I thought you had disappeared. Cheers Sea

RedMagic1 -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 8:14:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seababy Thanks Red. [:)] Lovely to "see" you again I thought you had disappeared. Cheers Sea Don't worry; I'll disappear again soon. I stopped in to read threads, and saw a couple I could answer. I get busy again starting Monday, so I doubt I'll be around much after that. I'll send you a wanker email if you want, though!

seababy -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 8:24:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: seababy Thanks Red. [:)] Lovely to "see" you again I thought you had disappeared. Cheers Sea Don't worry; I'll disappear again soon. I stopped in to read threads, and saw a couple I could answer. I get busy again starting Monday, so I doubt I'll be around much after that. I'll send you a wanker email if you want, though! Do!

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/6/2012 9:03:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Really? When you were new, weren't you looking for someone that had the answers? Sure I was, I read the website, spoke to people on line. Then I went (within a few days of even learning about Castle Realm) to my first munch, and listened and went to my first party and watched. I believed some really silly things, and some really stupid things. Did some even dumber things and some really awesome things as well. I explored, screwed up, had fun. Thing is, I don't blame or owe a website for my choices (good or bad). I also didn't build a religion or life choice off that website or any other. There were a great many influences in my life over the years, the very absolute least of which was Castle Realm. So yes, I pretty much stand by my belief that it is rather silly to make a life choice around the teachings of one website. quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl This website was written by real people (I assume) and novices turned to that website to tell them what to look for in a Dominant, what's attractive in a submissive, how a D/s relationship works. They didn't have the experience to understand that it was a very narrow view. Let's face it, how many people do we see on this website with fluffy, "true", rose colored expectations? (They even argue with experienced people about them) They throw themselves into relationships because being collared is some sort of brass ring that legitimizes them and will deliver the "fluff" projected by that website. Then they're back complaining about how he wasn't a "real" Dom. They sold a really good fantasy. Again, that's not how I remember the Castle Realm website. I remember there being links to various BDSM related sites, to journals written by Jade and articles written by her Master. They were two people's POV, and nothing more to me. I didn't take anything on that site as gospel and I didn't bow at the altar of M/s. It was a resource. If it was overly romanticized, so what? I also roleplayed online in the Gorean chatrooms, and found those written 'serves' to be some of the most beautifully and eloquently written 'short stories' as any I've come across since; but I didn't try and book a flight to Gor. I honestly don't think that Castle Realm was the anti-christ of all things BDSM or M/s. If people bought into the romanticism, well - they bought into what it was they were wanting at the time. It was useful to me, for what it was, a resource. I enjoyed Jade's journals. I found many of the articles interesting and they opened my eyes to a world I didn't even know existed. I just don't see that as a bad thing. You and other individuals see Castle Realm differently. I get that, and I respect it. I even understand your POV. It just isn't an opinion I share or agree with.

fragilepieces -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 3:20:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA quote: ORIGINAL: fragilepieces I think living the way I do ADDS to my life skills---being poor adds to lives skills---for example I can take what I have in the fridge and make a meal out of it that tastes good that no one else has tried making before. I can find the best deals for example I just got my daughter a lap top and the exact cell phone she wanted for Christmas for under $200.00 You're fooling yourself if you think those who AREN'T "poor" don't possess these same "skills" as well. Where did I say that? Read what I wrote again s-l-o-w-l-y

Casteele -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 4:48:54 AM)
FR Regarding ideas of what the lifestyle is, what BDMS is, kink, alternative, dom, sub, and so on.. (brought up regarding Castlerealm, but this goes beyond, imo).. One thing I have seen a lot on these boards is a lot of negative criticism of others with differing viewpoints, even amongst each other. Winsome said she had a rather higher opinion of Castlerealm, and that opinion (not her, thankfully) was promptly attacked--as if to say any TRUE self-respecting kink would poopoo anything like that and/or never admit to having such a socially unacceptable opinion. What difference is it if you're the pot or the kettle, when you're still calling the other black? While I do like hearing a lot of different peoples opinions, and a lot of people here have made me think and re-evaluate a lot of things myself, I do often see attitudes that this way or that way is the only real way.. as long as you don't explicitly state that it is the only true/real/one way. We all have our own views and opinions.. but lets not forget that that is all they are. More on topic.. reading the posts, I wonder if "life skills" is a good phrasing. I've thought about this topic a lot since it came up, and I can see how to some, it would definitely appear that the lot of us (to avoid the "community" :-P) do have certain personality deficiencies--not just to the 'nilla world, but to each other as well. I've seen some very strong posts here which quickly and harshly judge others and their ideals because they don't fit in to some individual notion of what's right or wrong, normal or abnormal. I'm no exception either, as I have my own ideas and opinions, things I want, even need, and things I can definitely do without. I'm not saying there is any right or wrong of it, either. It is what it is. Any community (and let's face it, we are a community--just not some universal, all-encompassing global community that is shared by all) must have some minimum standards, rules, ideas, and so on to function. There also needs to be some agreement as to what different words and phrases mean. Sure, it's a nice concept to say "what I call a cat you call a blast furnace," allowing for different folks to have different strokes and all. You have the right to your own ideas, right? But if you try to shove a pile of clay up my cats butt and try to ignite it with fire.. Ermm.. on second thought, we probably have some cat hating sadists around here who might get ideas from this example :-P Anyhow, the point is that we do need to have a certain level of agreement in order to communicate and share our ideas. There's quite a few posts I see of the form "No, no, you misunderstand me, what I'm really saying is.." only to find out that the two people were really saying the same thing just in different ways. As far as I can tell, all the above is true and applies to just about any facet of life; kink, vanilla, or other. Even in what I just typed.. kink vs vanilla.. Why is it an "us" and "them" mentality? Why does the OP have questions wondering if kink is more prone to people unable to cope with life, lack social skills, or whatever else "life skills" may encompass? I've seen quite a few groups in to various lifestyles who make comments and speak of vanillas as if the vanillas were actually a disease--people who are not strong enough or otherwise unable to grasp and accept ones own quirks and must therefore adjust to the vanilla social order, or some such. Gah, I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear here. Am really trying to think on the topic from different perspectives and viewpoints, even hoping others might see and present some thoughts and views I had not thought of..

fragilepieces -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 5:12:10 AM)
quote: higher opinion of Castlerealm, and that opinion (not her, thankfully) was promptly attacked I don't think she was attacked it was discussed why Castlerealm was not a good website---if Winsome likes or liked it fine----it would be the same if someone claimed they liked Mc Donalds and I offered my take on McDonalds--the food sincerely sucks, it's high in calorie content and Mc Donald's treats their employee rather poorly but millions of people eat there and most like it---I am just offering my thoughts as a consumer and former employee. Should I sit back and be passive? Should I agree that it's a great place to eat so someone does not feel attacked? Should I actually go there and consume a meal that is twice the calorie content I need for one day just because a million people do it? In addition to the rest of you post---I DON'T consider us a community I use the term when I have to loosely---my neighborhood is a community the city I live in is a community---the job I work at is a community and we all are involved in some way working towards some common goal and yes there are RULES---RULES created by the leaders of the community. WHO are the leaders here? On collar me the moderators are but seriously are you speaking about a BDSM community because seriously who is going to lay down rules for the entire BDSM community, who is going to follow them and how are they going to be enforced? And seriously do you really think that everyone is going to agree on the definition of slave other than what Webster used---SERIOUSLY and who is going to write that definition---do we democratically all vote and seriously even if it was in black and white that a slave IS---who the hell is going to follow it other than the ones who voted for the definition. Your definition of slave in no way impacts my life---the way you live your life in no way impacts mine---but if you toss something out there as this is how it is--and I don't see it that way I may just offer my two cents. That is what these forums are about---ya think if everything was totally black and white we would have a great deal to discuss and debate? I think your idea of community (not attacking you so make your panties less bunched) is pretty close to slavery and would usurp my freedom in a really negative way.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 6:17:15 AM)
Hi Casteel, First, I agree that there are often personal attacks and attacks of ones ideas on this site, and it can be very disheartening. Not in this instance though. I don't think either of the ladies was attacking my pov. I forget that Castle Realm had something of a cult following back around 14 years ago. My perspective is one who found it a useful, if limited resource. For many, it was held up as the epitome of what an M/s relationship was supposed to look like; this is what so many people are referring to when they speak negatively about the site. I'm glad that POV was elaborated on, because I honestly was baffled why the site was so heatedly harshed upon. It makes better sense to me now. I still don't see it the same way, and these ladies and I won't ever be of the same exact opinion, but I have a better understanding of where the animosity or dislike is coming from and I'm happy for it. Now if only the other disconnects I have with the world in general could be so easily made some sense of [:D]. I feel like I spend half my life scratching my head and staring at the world in bafflement, and the other half trying to avoid the cow patties and land mines of social weirdness. As for coming to any agreements on what words mean. Walk away man. Quick, before its too late. Just back away from this potentially explosive cow pie. I've got your back. WinD

fragilepieces -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 6:39:31 AM)
quote: Walk away man. Quick, before its too late. Just back away from this potentially explosive cow pie. LOL good thing I wasn't drinking coffee it gave me a good chuckle .....[:D]

OsideGirl -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 9:05:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance It was useful to me, for what it was, a resource. I enjoyed Jade's journals. I found many of the articles interesting and they opened my eyes to a world I didn't even know existed. I just don't see that as a bad thing. You and other individuals see Castle Realm differently. I get that, and I respect it. I even understand your POV. It just isn't an opinion I share or agree with. You seem to have a very level headed view of the website, which is a good thing. I think part of my view is that there was point and time where Castlerealm was treated like the Bible of D/s. So many accepted what it said without asking any questions.

OsideGirl -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 9:09:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Casteele Winsome said she had a rather higher opinion of Castlerealm, and that opinion (not her, thankfully) was promptly attacked--as if to say any TRUE self-respecting kink would poopoo anything like that and/or never admit to having such a socially unacceptable opinion. I did not attack her. I did not say she wasn't TRUE. I didn't say she lacked self respect. She gave her POV and I gave my POV, like two adults. So, you're the one with the issue.

Casteele -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 1:41:01 PM)
Good points, and I can see where I certainly could have worded a few things better (or at least posted when I was not so tired :-P).. More for me to think on. In truth, that's one thing I love about the CM forums, it's one of the few places that challenge me to learn how to better articulate many of the thoughts and feelings I have. I'm still not sure how to articulate some of the thoughts I've had just reading this thread (and others, but trying to stay somewhat on topic here).. Regarding word use, perhaps I approached it from the wrong direction--from the passive stance of the listener/reader.. I understand there is no universal meaning for every single word (or phrase like "life skills") and there will always be differences, but every word is generally understood to have a meaning that others will understand when they read (or hear) the word, else there would be no effective communication. It's complicated by the fact that many words have different meanings when used in different contexts. For myself, I always try to look beyond the exact words used by someone as I read them, and try to focus on what I believe the writer is trying to say, not how they say it. Something I often see on threads here and why these thoughts came to the front in my mind, are the "that's not what I said" or "thats not what I meant" type statements, or the posts disagreeing with a specific word(s) used, and so on. Living with someone with whom English is their third language rather than their primary, I've learned that many words do indeed have precise meanings in specific contexts, and others can easily remain ambiguous even with extensive clarification. Like my use of the word "attack" in my previous post. I still stand by what I meant, although I'm not sure what word would be more suitable for what I meant. From my debate/discussion training/view, an attack on a statement isn't a bad or negative thing itself, it's simply an attempt by one side to dispute/refute, neutralize, or negate a statement made by the other. Neither side was negative or got personal with the other, but there are clearly at least two different opinions, and one seems considerably less popular than the other(s). Same for community. I see us here at CM as a community, just as I see the people on FL a community; The boundaries that bind and separate only exist in cyberspace, both bounded by their site addresses. Some people are members of both, some of only one, some of neither (although I don't expect to hear much from those :-P). I do agree there is no such thing as a global BDSM community that encompasses all possible thoughts and ideals, and people whom often use the term in that context really just mean "in my experience with the communities I've been part of.." And personally, I've found that by reminding myself of that, I've been more often able to overlook their use of the term and focus better on what they were trying to say rather than let their poor choice of words/meanings blot it out completely. Now, the hardest part for me to articulate right now is why I brought this all up and why I actually think it is very much on topic.. I'm looking more at the interactions of all of this in the various posts, both in this thread and others.. I've known and been part of many discussion forums and sites over the years, and on nearly every one of them I've meet and engaged people whom speak as if it's all a game; it's just cyberspace, make believe, not real (I'm highlighting the personality type here, not necessarily commenting on their views). In private messages with these people, I often see a pattern where they make comments to the effect of "look at how seriously that person takes all this, they must be totally inept social retards to take this so seriously!" Some of the things I was highlighting in my post were things I would commonly see those people highlight in those private messages as justification for.. making a judgment that their views are more acceptable and healthy than the views of those others. Isn't that what the OP was questioning, at least partially? Of course, I was also trying to point out that these are things we all do, myself included, since we're all just mere foolish mortals after all. So no matter what you may think, do, or believe, there will be various perspective that place each and every one of us in a position that would seem to clearly indicate we all lack any "life skills," and just as many that will believe we clearly show a very well-adjusted and healthy view on life.

Epytropos -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 2:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seababy quote: ORIGINAL: seababy I don't fall into the in particular (as perhaps you can tell from my extensive life skills[;)]), but this is an interesting topic so I thought I'd sacrifice some of my considerable celebrity and take a series of unpopular stands on it. After all, what is life without good enemies, right? Firstly let me make the disclaimer that I do not subscribe to the notion of so-called life skills. If we take the most "successful" (and I place that in quotations since I am using it in the traditional sense, which I do not subscribe to either) people, what will we find in common among them? You equating lifeskills with fame and fame with success. In terms of potential partners who would be making decisions as to how my life develops I would not pick one of these people. I think your reasoning is faulty. Will we find the ability to cope with pressure? I suspect we will not. Turing was prone to panic attacks, Gaius Octavius could charitably have been described as whiny and cowardly, and Churchill turned to drink when there was so much as a garbage strike. How about people skills? You know you were thinking it. Kafka couldn't even interact with people he didn't know, Einstein survived socialization solely because he didn't believe in free will, and of course, returning to the time of that most famous of Triumvirates, Ptolemy XIV refused abjectly to speak to anyone if he could help it. We'll call that one off, then. Financial planning? Trump has been bankrupt 14(?) times. Thomas Jefferson spent 120k on wine in a single term despite already being deep in debt. I could do this all day. In short, life skills, as a concept, are bullshit. This is the stuffed up post. My reply is in red all the black is actually credited to Epytropos. Sorry Epytropos No worries - I picked out what you meant and responded. I had a moment of "wait did she just steal my post?" but not for long lol

BootyBoy -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 6:05:09 PM)
So how many Dominants think that a person who identifies as submissive is a submissive because they lack something essential needed to be considered a healthy functional adult? Sometimes subs also play into this perception by playing the helpless card. How many times have you known or read about a sub who throws their whole life down at some poor dominants feet, expecting them to become their lifestyle coach, or parent. In some cases, that is the role that the dominant wants to play, but I've seen that it can become a burden to many. Competent subs who are actually useful to some degree cannot afford to be slackers who can't even manage to organize the basics of their own existence.

fragilepieces -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/7/2012 6:23:02 PM)
quote: I've meet and engaged people whom speak as if it's all a game; it's just cyberspace, make believe, not real I kinda border on that personality---my relationship is very real---not live in but real yet I think there is a great deal of fantasy and make believe in it all. Example: My partner can tell me I fucked up and I am going to be punished. I DO have several choices---I can accept that punishment, negotiate that punishment or say OH REALLY. Chances are I will say, 'Oh really?' laugh and accept it---with that said is it really real? Does he have complete control over me or do I allow him to have that control? And nope I don't take it all that seriously---shrugs.

OsideGirl -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/8/2012 3:21:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Casteele From my debate/discussion training/view, an attack on a statement isn't a bad or negative thing itself, it's simply an attempt by one side to dispute/refute, neutralize, or negate a statement made by the other. But, you specifically said: quote: ORIGINAL: Casteele was promptly attacked--as if to say any TRUE self-respecting kink would poopoo anything like that and/or never admit to having such a socially unacceptable opinion. What difference is it if you're the pot or the kettle, when you're still calling the other black? You didn't question our debate about the statement. You called us out saying that we were the pot calling the kettle black. That we inferred that Winsome wasn't TRUE. You were the one that called it a personal attack and I don't see how you can now claim that you were talking about a POV debate of a statement.

fragilepieces -> RE: Submissive personality traits - rescue me from my lack of life skills? (1/8/2012 3:36:32 PM)
quote: You were the one that called it a personal attack and I don't see how you can now claim that you were talking about a POV debate of a statement. It's called a creative approach to removing one's foot from one's mouth---without admitting that you stuck your foot there in the first place. I do it all the time. [:D]

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