RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 2:41:33 PM)

Simply amazing.




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 2:43:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

try reading

I said:

It is also considered a motor vehicle is it is "drawn" by some form of locomotive device.



340.01.(35) “Motor vehicle” means a vehicle, including a combination of 2 or more vehicles or an articulated vehicle, which is self−propelled, except a vehicle operated exclusively on a rail. “Motor vehicle” includes, without limitation, a commercial motor vehicle or a vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires but not operated on rails.  A snowmobile and an all−terrain vehicle shall only be considered motor vehicles for purposes made specifically applicable by statute.
340.01.(74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains. A snowmobile or electric personal assistive mobility device shall not be considered a vehicle except for purposes made specifically applicable by statute.


Uh.......locomotive..........locomotive........locomotive.......nope...

You read the fuckin thing and show me locomotive in one or both definitions (heres a hint:  those 10 statutes are nothing to do with Amish wagons drawn by dray horses, I bet those are entirely different statutes)  but I aint willing to search that much cheesehead law.


see dood you just do not have a clue what is going on here.

I said locomotive device.  a locomotive device can be a semi tractor farm tractor you pulling your red radio flyer down the hiway.

all you can see is a fucking train locomotive. 

yeh reading any law would be a waste for you I agree.




mnottertail -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 2:51:10 PM)

 
of or pertaining to locomotives.
of, pertaining to, or aiding in locomotion or movement from place to place: the locomotive powers of most animals.
moving or traveling by means of its own mechanism or powers.
serving to produce such movement; adapted for or used in locomotion: locomotive organs.
having the power of locomotion: an animal that is locomotive at birth.  Read your fuckin definition that you posted, rail was exempted out of the fuckin chute.  And I specifically mentioned horses, not trains, it wasn't in my arguement. You go from shoes to horses, what finally is the fucking point? Fuck a canadian right to travel in the constitution for cheeseheads, it aint there, and it aint federally and you can take your shoes and walk anywhere with them, this is nothing to do with it.




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 3:02:49 PM)

and I am sure you think the court is talking about a train LOL


Later cases also defined this right to travel quite conservatively. For example, in Williams v. Fears, 179 U. S. 270 (1900), the Court upheld a Georgia statute taxing "emigrant agents"—persons hiring labor for work outside the State—although agents hiring for local work went untaxed. The Court recognized that a right to travel existed, stating:
"Undoubtedly the right of locomotion, the right to remove from one place to another according to inclination, is an attribute of personal liberty, and the right, ordinarily, of free transit from or through the territory of any State is a right secured by the Fourteenth Amendment and by other provisions of the Constitution." Id., at 274.


The Court has suggested on occasion that some more generalized right to movement may exist. See, e.g., Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116, 126, 78 S.Ct. 1113, 2 L.Ed.2d 1204 (1958) ("Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values."); Guest, 383 U.S. at 758, 86 S.Ct. 1170 (proclaiming that citizens of the United States "must have the right to pass and repass through every part of [the country] without interruption, as freely as in [their] own states" (quoting Crandall v. Nevada, 73 U.S. (6 Wall.) 35, 49, 18 L.Ed. 745 (1867) (quoting The Passenger Cases, 48 U.S. (7 How.) 283, 492, 12 L.Ed. 702 (1849) (Taney, C.J., dissenting)))); Williams v. Fears, 179 U.S. 270, 273, 21 S.Ct. 128, 45 L.Ed. 186 (1900) (indicating that the "right of locomotion," like the "right to contract," is protected by substantive due process). But those comments are only dicta—the cases involved travel across borders, not mere "locomotion."[2] Indeed, the Supreme Court in Memorial Hospital v. Maricopa County, 415 U.S. 250, 255, 94 S.Ct. 1076, 39 L.Ed.2d 306 (1974), cast strong doubt on the idea that there was a fundamental right to free movement, noting that "[e]ven a bona fide residence requirement would burden the right to travel if travel meant merely movement." In any event, the Court subsequently made clear that any right to travel involved in Kent and Aptheker was distinct from the recognized right to interstate travel, explaining that international travel is no more than an aspect of liberty that is subject to reasonable government regulation within the bounds of due process, whereas interstate travel is a fundamental right subject to a more exacting standard. See Haig v. Agee, 453 U.S. 280, 306-07, 101 S.Ct. 2766, 69 L.Ed.2d 640 (1981) (upholding constitutionality of regulation authorizing the revocation of passport on the ground that the regulation authorized revocation only where the holder's activities in foreign countries are causing or are likely to cause serious damage to national security). Since the right to free movement would cover both interstate and international travel, Agee at least implies that the right recognized by the Court is decidedly more narrow.


Locomotion and locomotive are not always train engines.  Anything supplying the ability to move can be considered locomotive (force).

first day reading law for you I see.




Musicmystery -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 3:09:04 PM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkN4J2l1UaA




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 3:10:25 PM)

they got it right! LOL




mnottertail -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 3:12:58 PM)

Yup, I see you havent read any law whatsoever.  Nor do you understand english, you are expanding definitions in cheesehead law to drive in georgia with motorized tennis shoes.

Next, you will be telling us that the states cannot require licenses to drive on their highways, because some fuckin yokel in Georgia said so (by expanding what he said into something he didnt say)

I do not believe that Amish need a drivers license in your state, they dont in mine to drive their locomotive vehicles drawn by horses.

So, way to go, not bad for a first day of reading law, except you got nothing right and everything wrong, and you've been on your first day for several years, nevertheless; when you and the AG trade war stories and you come down on him with the full power of your legal acumen, like a whipped cur, he will gut all the law and redact it with:

Right to travel [rosebud...............]   




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 3:24:09 PM)

if every straw man you just blathered was one calorie I would be so fat I couldnt even type.

take your butt whippin like a man and be done with it.




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 3:49:29 PM)

I think I will add that while the shoe argument was never intended to happen, as I said it was a snark remark we can sit back and laugh thinking it is absurd.  But then there was a time when the feds could not step foot in the state and the state could not step foot on your property except in the event of a crime or public danger or disturbance.  today they run around policing neighborhoods and come on your property with impunity, in fact wisconsin trespass laws are written such that it is not trespass for any agent to enter onto your property freely at will.  So for me realizing what has been done and seeing it all in law and court cases its not real far fetched that shoes could most certainly be classified as a vehicle.  (some day)

Now what I can do is show you all how it is done.   I am not a huge abrahamson fan but she nailed this one bang on target.

This case is long but a great read as to how the courts in this case defraud and destroy the law by ignoring standards and proper procedure and on and on and on.


Here is a supreme court fight one that is easier because abrahamson tells you what is wrong with it

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=8540609463452326520&q=hempel+v+baraboo&hl=en&as_sdt=4,50

meaning what an abortion they turned the law into.

she is right on target in everything she says and it is this way in your state as well.








Politesub53 -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 4:55:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

that was in response to rons

no that is not true.  It is also considered a motor vehicle is it is "drawn" by some form of locomotive device.




Nonsense, your Op paragraph one cleary defines a motor vehicle. It also mentions shoes, so the shoe comment cant be in reply to anything.

Just for you brains, here is your paragraph from the OP. It clearly mentions motor vehicles and doesnt mention the word drawn, not once, not ever.

quote:

340.01.(35) “Motor vehicle” means a vehicle, including a combination of 2 or more vehicles or an articulated vehicle, which is self−propelled, except a vehicle operated exclusively on a rail. “Motor vehicle” includes, without limitation, a commercial motor vehicle or a vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires but not operated on rails. A snowmobile and an all−terrain vehicle shall only be considered motor vehicles for purposes made specifically applicable by statute.


Edited to end quote correctly.




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 6:58:10 PM)

you missed the other part where it does




LizDeluxe -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 7:44:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Yeh!

Here is a prime example of syntax terrorism or as one Judge said "verbicide".

As we can see the definition of vehicle could as well mean also your shoes!

So according to the state "WHAT" is officially "motor vehicles"?

quote:

340.01.(35) “Motor vehicle” means a vehicle, including a combination of 2 or more vehicles or an articulated vehicle, which is self−propelled, except a vehicle operated exclusively on a rail. “Motor vehicle” includes, without limitation, a commercial motor vehicle or a vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires but not operated on rails.  A snowmobile and an all−terrain vehicle shall only be considered motor vehicles for purposes made specifically applicable by statute.

340.01.(74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains. A snowmobile or electric personal assistive mobility device shall not be considered a vehicle except for purposes made specifically applicable by statute.


anyone?


May I have one pair of those mysterious self-propelling shoes, please?






outhere69 -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 7:58:17 PM)

Yup, I could use some.

Some of them other dudes should get a room!




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 8:13:27 PM)

why does everyone find it necessary to misquote me?


340.01.(74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains.


nothing about self-propelled in the definition for vehicle.


ah this reminds me of the old days!  MOVED:  LOL

as far as I am concerned this thread should have just been deleted since I never did get to talk about what I intended to talk about in the first place.

I would suggest that anyone in the future wishes to get involved in discussing law the least they can do is to study statutory structure and interpretation.

Any wonder attorneys rule the world  LOL








stellauk -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/7/2012 11:38:48 PM)

The idea of a shoe being defined as a vehicle for me is ridiculous. I would define shoe as an item of clothing.

Why?

A vehicle is something designed to transport something or someone from A to B.

A car therefore can transport anyone who can drive it, i.e. use it for its purpose.
A bicycle therefore can transport anyone who can ride it, i.e. use it for its purpose.
A trolley can also transport anything placed on it and can be used for the same purpose.

A shoe cannot be used by anyone to get from A to B, because that was not the purpose it was designed for.

A shoe is something designed to cover a specific size of foot.

Irrespective of whether that person is moving or stationary, i.e. standing in one place, the shoe is being used for the purpose it was intended, i.e. to cover and protect feet.

The shoe can only be worn by persons of a specific size and shape of foot. This defines the purpose, and the purpose is to cover and protect feet of a particular size.

Yes, you can if you wish place the shoe in a body of flowing or moving water and if it floats place an object it in, and it will transport it along the body of water. But that is not why the shoe was designed and not the primary reason why the shoe came into being.

Therefore even applying such elementary legal principles the OPs premise that a shoe can be defined as transport falls apart.




Real0ne -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/8/2012 7:36:43 AM)

Well you see you are not applying legal principles.

You are applying the same reason, that reasonable people would apply.  Myself included.

However law at least when it comes to government extorting money from people has little to do with reason as compared to agenda.

That said to apply legal principles you need to use their definitions as stated in the statutes.  Lacking that, you would next turn to case law and definitions out of law dictionaries not dictionaries are us.

You can see they wrote this definition to include everything that can possibly be put on the highway:

quote:

340.01.(74) “Vehicle” means every device in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except railroad trains.


Shoes certainly fit everything. 

They later subcategorize with the various kinds of vehicles and how they intend to regulate each variant, such as "motor vehicle" etc

The court has the ability to construe matters pretty much any way they want as long as they can make it sound plausible.   I posted the case above where the supreme court turned the definitions stated in the statutes right on their head.  Of course that would require you to read both the case and look up the definitions and do a bit of legal research on the matter but it shows how fucked we are with these corrupt courts and it shows why the constitution set everything before a jury of the people rather than corporate judges.

As I have shown regardless of anyones feelings logic etc that shoes can be a vehicle by the definition of vehicle stated in 340. 

The point here being with the wide plenary power the judges have should they make a determination one day that a shoe constitutes a vehicle it would stick and there would be nothing you could argue definition wise that will change that because it is not "outside" the scope of the definition.

The whole purpose of the thread in the first place was to point out government fraud and even through all the red herring attacks you can all read abrahams dissent when they gutted the wisconsin open records law that was passed insuring people could easily see the operations of their government. 


Here:

Below os the post and the case demonstrating what I am talking about:


Now what I can do is show you all how it is done.   I am not a huge abrahamson fan but she nailed this one bang on target.

This case is long but a great read as to how the courts in this case defraud and destroy the law by ignoring standards and proper procedure and on and on and on.


Here is a supreme court fight one that is easier because abrahamson tells you what is wrong with it

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=8540609463452326520&q=hempel+v+baraboo&hl=en&as_sdt=4,50

meaning what an abortion they turned the law into.

she is right on target in everything she says and it is this way in your state as well.


Its not who you elect that makes this country change its who is sitting on the bench and often times you do not get to elect them!






isoLadyOwner -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/8/2012 7:58:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner

What is the legal definition of "transported" in the specific statute that defines "motor vehicle" and "vehicle"?

Not a dictionary definition but rather what is the statutory definition of "transported" in the law the OP is being obtuse about?

The legislature may have felt defining "transported" was pointless as noone with above average intelligence could consider shoes a motor vehicle.

Find the statutory definition of "transported" and the OP will then argue at length that the term "mobility" or "device" or "is" should invalidate it.

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse and it tends to be used by Judges to muzzle the brain dead.



good post!  You seem to have a grip on how they operate with respect to their use of words!  you asked for "their" definition which is exactly right way to approach it.

“Transporter” means any of the following:

(a) A person who is engaged in this state in the business of
transporting and delivering motor vehicles, trailers, semitrailers
or recreational vehicles in tow on their own wheels or under their
own power from a distributor, a dealer, the manufacturer, or a
branch of the manufacturer to the purchaser, or from any location
to a distributor, a dealer, the manufacturer, or a branch of the
manufacturer, and who is a 3rd party with no ownership interest
in the vehicles.

(b) A person who manufactures or installs on previously
assembled truck chassis special bodies or equipment which when
installed form an integral part of the motor vehicle and which
constitutes a major manufacturing alteration, or who is engaged
in modifying or converting previously assembled or manufactured
complete motor vehicles, but who is not the owner of the
vehicles on which manufacturing operations were performed by
that person, if incidental to manufacturing operations the person
transports motor vehicles in tow on their own wheels or under
their own power between the person’s place of business and
manufacturers, dealers and distributors, or delivers them to purchasers.



that is what they give you.  There is a reason for that. 

There conveniently is no definition for "transport"!


as far as the shoes goes a judge could certainly get that to stick until you appealed your ass off and spent several thousand bucks even if you know how to do it yourself all the way to the supreme court.

that is the problem with law today.  who the hell has the time in their lives to straighten this shit mess out.




Sanctions prevent inane semantic Arguments at Trial.

You won't see these discussions in a real Court because the Judge will mock and deride the offending Attorney for the balance of the Trial if not jail him or her for Contempt.

A Bar Grievance would also likely ensue as the Trial Judge would be obligated to report the Attorney to his or her State Bar for a competency review and possible Psychological testing.

Only non Lawyers (or Lawyers headed for disbarment) try this type of argument at trial.

Appearing to be a fool is not going to win any respect from the finder of facts.

"Transporter" and "transported" are different terms btw.





outhere69 -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/8/2012 8:01:09 AM)

Never was there a place so fitting for this thread...P&RS!




isoLadyOwner -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/8/2012 8:05:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

Never was there a place so fitting for this thread...P&RS!


It appears to be an exercise in trolling. Its hard to believe the OP genuinely believes this would fly in Court.




mnottertail -> RE: Ok Law Dawgs! Who wants to take a shot at this? (1/8/2012 8:13:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

'transport'  in those 10 statutes is not being regulated in and of itself, nor are shoes.

Therefore it is not defined in those regulations 


however transport as you can plainly see came into question because the definition as that one person rightfuly asked for was required.



As I plainly see it is not required in those statutes.




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