RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 10:42:50 AM)

quote:

How many of us would be willing to pay significantly more for our phone, or our computers, clothing, etc. in order to protect jobs here?


Ask yourself too how you feel about shrinking the U.S. economy by 2/7ths (our exports), and the job losses that would entail, along with higher prices. That's the cost of turning off trade.




tj444 -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 10:44:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
If it wasn't for the ATM, our President likes to remind us, a lot more people would have jobs at the bank counters. If it wasn't for the robots, a lot more ex-autoworkers would still be autoworkers. I don't know how widely they have spread, but here in California, automated checkout at the grocery store is the new express lane. How many jobs might those wind up killing?

Should these things be banned, or, at least in these difficult times, should there be a moratorium on new ways to replace human labor with technology?

there was a store in SoCal that had some self serve lines,.. they decided to take them out.. i cant remember which store it was tho.. I didnt want them to be removed, I like the option of being able to use them or go to a line with a cherk..

No, they shouldnt be banned.. the invention and production of these things also create jobs..
to ban them would also kill innovation.. inventors need to be able to see how things can be improved or the mind rots..
Automation gives people good or better quality products at lower prices.. I for one dont want to pay more again, and if that was done then i just wouldnt buy at all..
automation also does keep at least some jobs in the US rather than those jobs going offshore to where ever.. that is the choice, automate here or outsource to there..




MasterG2kTR -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 10:54:54 AM)

While I somewhat agree with the OP that there are technologies which are purely designed to take jobs away from people like (one not yet mentioned) attendantless fuel stations.

On the flipside of this most automated industrial equipment is designed not to take away jobs but to make them safer. They complete hazardous tasks, and by doing boring monotonous repetitive tasks (people get bored doing these and get sloppy/careless) both of which have significantly reduced workplace injuries. In my experience many of these machines have done this while allowing the craftsmen to focus on the work that the machines are not capable of doing.

So do I want to turn back technology? No. I do however think that companies who do not see their employees as valuable assets like the equipment they invest in, are taking us on a path of self destruction, because there will soon be no one who can afford to buy their product if we don't have jobs.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:10:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Ask yourself too how you feel about shrinking the U.S. economy by 2/7ths (our exports), and the job losses that would entail, along with higher prices. That's the cost of turning off trade.


In 2011 our exports to China only totalled $94 billion; but we IMPORTED $366 billion worth of goods from China. I would be willing to give up the $94 billion of exports to China to BRING a third or more of that $366 billion business back to the U.S.




Musicmystery -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:16:05 AM)

China is not our only trading partner, by any means.

Point remains, 2/7ths of our economy is exports. I'm pretty sure 2/7ths of the work force losing their jobs *would* care. And the world economy (nor the U.S.) works as simplistically as you imagine.

Try an example...let's say your community passes a law, allowing only goods made in your community--that includes cars, computers, phones, everything, and that other communities do the same. What would happen, even in the long term, to availability of goods? To prices? To markets for businesses?

Or why not make everything right in your own home, sold only there, purchasing only goods made there, your neighbors doing the same! Think of the job opportunities!

....except it doesn't quite work that way, does it.




Lucylastic -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:30:07 AM)

Fucktoy.....They are called Trade Agreements for a reason..
How much in debt is the US to China??
It helps to look at the facts




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:35:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

China is not our only trading partner, by any means.


I understand that. Personally, I'm only boycotting goods that are 100% made in China at the moment. I am trying to find a way to boycott the electronics, but it is really difficult because a lot of times it is only some components that are made in China. My point is just that even focusing energy on the trade imbalance with this one country would have a positive net impact on U.S. jobs without even having to think about the rest of our trade. I'm perfectly happy with my Italian shoes, or my Indian rice. I'm just saying I don't see why we need to be buying things like clothes from China. We destroyed the garment industry in the U.S. by moving to those imports. And that is just one example of many. But, everyone now has access to cheap clothing - that we buy and toss season to season. It's wasteful, and unnecessary. And people are out of jobs because everyone wants the latest style for the cheapest price. Most of the fashion industry relies on cheap Chinese labor.




Musicmystery -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:45:10 AM)

quote:

It's wasteful, and unnecessary.


Quite the contrary. We specialize for a reason. It gives both trading partners comparative advantage:

Comparative advantage was first described by David Ricardo who explained it in his 1817 book On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation in an example involving England and Portugal.[4] In Portugal it is possible to produce both wine and cloth with less labor than it would take to produce the same quantities in England. However the relative costs of producing those two goods are different in the two countries. In England it is very hard to produce wine, and only moderately difficult to produce cloth. In Portugal both are easy to produce. Therefore while it is cheaper to produce cloth in Portugal than England, it is cheaper still for Portugal to produce excess wine, and trade that for English cloth. Conversely England benefits from this trade because its cost for producing cloth has not changed but it can now get wine at a lower price, closer to the cost of cloth. The conclusion drawn is that each country can gain by specializing in the good where it has comparative advantage, and trading that good for the other.
Examples

The following hypothetical examples explain the reasoning behind the theory. In Example 2 all assumptions are italicized for easy reference, and some are explained at the end of the example.
Example 1

Two men live alone on an isolated island. To survive they must undertake a few basic economic activities like water carrying, fishing, cooking and shelter construction and maintenance. The first man is young, strong, and educated. He is also faster, better, and more productive at everything. He has an absolute advantage in all activities. The second man is old, weak, and uneducated. He has an absolute disadvantage in all economic activities. In some activities the difference between the two is great; in others it is small.

Despite the fact that the younger man has absolute advantage in all activities, it is not in the interest of either of them to work in isolation since they both can benefit from specialization and exchange. If the two men divide the work according to comparative advantage then the young man will specialize in tasks at which he is most productive, while the older man will concentrate on tasks where his productivity is only a little less than that of the young man. Such an arrangement will increase total production for a given amount of labor supplied by both men and it will benefit both of them.
Example 2

Suppose there are two countries of equal size, Northland and Southland, that both produce and consume two goods, food and clothes. The productive capacities and efficiencies of the countries are such that if both countries devoted all their resources to food production, output would be as follows:

Northland: 100 tonnes
Southland: 400 tonnes

If all the resources of the countries were allocated to the production of clothes, output would be:

Northland: 100 tonnes
Southland: 200 tonnes

Assuming each has constant opportunity costs of production between the two products and both economies have full employment at all times. All factors of production are mobile within the countries between clothes and food industries, but are immobile between the countries. The price mechanism must be working to provide perfect competition.

Southland has an absolute advantage over Northland in the production of food and clothes. There seems to be no mutual benefit in trade between the economies, as Southland is more efficient at producing both products. The opportunity costs shows otherwise. Northland's opportunity cost of producing one tonne of food is one tonne of clothes and vice versa. Southland's opportunity cost of one tonne of food is 0.5 tonne of clothes, and its opportunity cost of one tonne of clothes is 2 tonnes of food. Southland has a comparative advantage in food production, because of its lower opportunity cost of production with respect to Northland, while Northland has a comparative advantage in clothes production, because of its lower opportunity cost of production with respect to Southland.

To show these different opportunity costs lead to mutual benefit if the countries specialize production and trade, consider the countries produce and consume only domestically, dividing production capabilities equally between food and clothes. The volumes are:
Production and consumption before trade Country Food Clothes
Northland 50 50
Southland 200 100
TOTAL 250 150

This example includes no formulation of the preferences of consumers in the two economies which would allow the determination of the international exchange rate of clothes and food. Given the production capabilities of each country, in order for trade to be worthwhile Northland requires a price of at least one tonne of food in exchange for one tonne of clothes; and Southland requires at least one tonne of clothes for two tonnes of food. The exchange price will be somewhere between the two. The remainder of the example works with an international trading price of one tonne of food for 2/3 tonne of clothes.

If both specialize in the goods in which they have comparative advantage, their outputs will be:
Production after trade Country Food Clothes
Northland 0 100
Southland 300 50
TOTAL 300 150

World production of food increased. clothes production remained the same. Using the exchange rate of one tonne of food for 2/3 tonne of clothes, Northland and Southland are able to trade to yield the following level of consumption:
Consumption after trade Country Food Clothes
Northland 75 50
Southland 225 100
World total 300 150

Northland traded 50 tonnes of clothes for 75 tonnes of food. Both benefited, and now consume at points outside their production possibility frontiers.

Assumptions in Example 2:

Two countries, two goods - the theory is no different for larger numbers of countries and goods, but the principles are clearer and the argument easier to follow in this simpler case.
Equal size economies - again, this is a simplification to produce a clearer example.
Full employment - if one or other of the economies has less than full employment of factors of production, then this excess capacity must usually be used up before the comparative advantage reasoning can be applied.
Constant opportunity costs - a more realistic treatment of opportunity costs the reasoning is broadly the same, but specialization of production can only be taken to the point at which the opportunity costs in the two countries become equal. This does not invalidate the principles of comparative advantage, but it does limit the magnitude of the benefit.
Perfect mobility of factors of production within countries - this is necessary to allow production to be switched without cost. In real economies this cost will be incurred: capital will be tied up in plant (sewing machines are not sowing machines) and labour will need to be retrained and relocated. This is why it is sometimes argued that 'nascent industries' should be protected from fully liberalised international trade during the period in which a high cost of entry into the market (capital equipment, training) is being paid for.
Immobility of factors of production between countries - why are there different rates of productivity? The modern version of comparative advantage (developed in the early twentieth century by the Swedish economists Eli Heckscher and Bertil Ohlin) attributes these differences to differences in nations' factor endowments. A nation will have comparative advantage in producing the good that uses intensively the factor it produces abundantly. For example: suppose the US has a relative abundance of capital and India has a relative abundance of labor. Suppose further that cars are capital intensive to produce, while cloth is labor intensive. Then the US will have a comparative advantage in making cars, and India will have a comparative advantage in making cloth. If there is international factor mobility this can change nations' relative factor abundance. The principle of comparative advantage still applies, but who has the advantage in what can change.
Negligible transport cost - Cost is not a cause of concern when countries decided to trade. It is ignored and not factored in.
Before specialization, half of each country's available resources are used to produce each good.
Perfect competition - this is a standard assumption that allows perfectly efficient allocation of productive resources in an idealized free market.

Example 3

The economist Paul Samuelson provided another well known example in his Economics. Suppose that in a particular city the best lawyer happens also to be the best secretary, that is he would be the most productive lawyer and he would also be the best secretary in town. However, if this lawyer focused on the task of being a lawyer and, instead of pursuing both occupations at once, employed a secretary, both the output of the lawyer and the secretary would increase, as it is more difficult to be a lawyer than a secretary.
Effect of trade costs

Trade costs, particularly transportation, reduce and may eliminate the benefits from trade, including comparative advantage. Paul Krugman gives the following example.[5]

Using Ricardo's classic example:
Unit labor costs Cloth Wine
Britain 100 110
Portugal 90 80

In the absence of transportation costs, it is efficient for Britain to produce cloth, and Portugal to produce wine, as, assuming that these trade at equal price (1 unit of cloth for 1 unit of wine) Britain can then obtain wine at a cost of 100 labor units by producing cloth and trading, rather than 110 units by producing the wine itself, and Portugal can obtain cloth at a cost of 80 units by trade rather than 90 by production.

However, in the presence of trade costs of 15 units of labor to import a good (alternatively a mix of export labor costs and import labor costs, such as 5 units to export and 10 units to import), it then costs Britain 115 units of labor to obtain wine by trade – 100 units for producing the cloth, 15 units for importing the wine, which is more expensive than producing the wine locally, and likewise for Portugal. Thus, if trade costs exceed the production advantage, it is not advantageous to trade.

Krugman proceeds to argue more speculatively that changes in the cost of trade (particularly transportation) relative to the cost of production may be a factor in changes in global patterns of trade: if trade costs decrease, such as on the advent of steam-powered shipping, trade should be expected to increase, as more comparative advantages in production can be realized. Conversely, if trade costs increase, or if production costs decrease faster than trade costs (such as via electrification of factories), then trade should be expected to decrease, as trade costs become a more significant barrier.
Effects on the economy

Conditions that maximize comparative advantage do not automatically resolve trade deficits. In fact, many real world examples where comparative advantage is attainable may require a trade deficit. For example, the amount of goods produced can be maximized, yet it may involve a net transfer of wealth from one country to the other, often because economic agents have widely different rates of saving.

As the markets change over time, the ratio of goods produced by one country versus another variously changes while maintaining the benefits of comparative advantage. This can cause national currencies to accumulate into bank deposits in foreign countries where a separate currency is used.

Macroeconomic monetary policy is often adapted to address the depletion of a nation's currency from domestic hands by the issuance of more money, leading to a wide range of historical successes and failures.


Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/comparative-advantage#ixzz1jSnoxdCi




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:52:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Fucktoy.....They are called Trade Agreements for a reason..
How much in debt is the US to China??
It helps to look at the facts



Simply because 26% of federal debt is to China, I do not feel that I am personally obligated to buy goods that are made in China. I am saying we are each as consumers 100% free to buy things wherever we want. If I choose to look at labels and reject clothing that is made in China, is the government really going to tell me that I can't just because of the U.S. debt issue? I'm sorry, but last I checked this is still a free country, and I don't have to buy anything from China if I don't really want to. I am only speaking about each of us as individuals taking some responsibility for what we purchase and consume. Sometimes large changes can come from small actions. And I think the clothing issue is particularly egregious because most of this clothing ends up as landfill after one season of wear. It's horrendous from so many perspectives. I would also add toys to this list. My nieces and nephews have too much junk. I honestly feel we don't need so much stuff, and that the U.S. economy will survive just fine with fewer cheap Chinese toys and clothing being purchased. And this is my decision to make about how I spend my own money. Not the government's.




Musicmystery -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 11:53:18 AM)

What does any of that stance (which is fine) have to do with the issue or the OP?




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:01:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The economist Paul Samuelson provided another well known example in his Economics. Suppose that in a particular city the best lawyer happens also to be the best secretary, that is he would be the most productive lawyer and he would also be the best secretary in town. However, if this lawyer focused on the task of being a lawyer and, instead of pursuing both occupations at once, employed a secretary, both the output of the lawyer and the secretary would increase, as it is more difficult to be a lawyer than a secretary.
Effect of trade costs


Yes, well, except the situation that we have now is that the lawyer is more than gainfully employed and uses his laptop to do all of his secretarial work and the secretary is unemployed with no health care......:)

I also take exception to your economic analysis which relies on assumptions that everyone knows not to be true. I will not go through each assumption, but let's just take one - perfect competition. Such a thing simply does not exist. Anywhere. In any country.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:04:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What does any of that stance (which is fine) have to do with the issue or the OP?

quote:

What does any of that stance (which is fine) have to do with the issue or the OP?


My original response was to MusicalBoredom who was positing an alternative theory around consumerism and its separate impact - I quoted his response in my original response to this thread. I was not trying to derail the thread, but simply voice my support to MusicalBoredom who seems to have the same perspective as me.




Musicmystery -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:08:33 PM)

quote:

except the situation that we have now is that the lawyer is more than gainfully employed and uses his laptop to do all of his secretarial work and the secretary is unemployed with no health care


When's the last time you visited a law firm? The lawyer can still make far more by practicing law and hiring a secretary to work the laptop.

quote:

assumptions that everyone knows not to be true. I will not go through each assumption, but let's just take one - perfect competition

That's proof surrogate fallacy. Nice try.

Perfect competition is the ground rule for discussing ANY economy principle, otherwise no discussion of principle would be possible, just a string of what-ifs. The same can be said for your claims.

The quoted text illustrates how the principle works if the factor is isolated, just as in any other discussion demonstrating principles. And as the example above shows, the principle works in the instance supposed, and not as you would claim.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:20:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

When's the last time you visited a law firm? The lawyer can still make far more by practicing law and hiring a secretary to work the laptop.


Many of the lawyers I know do first drafts of documents on their laptops. E-mail is widely used for correspondence. This is not 20 years ago where lawyers were dictating letters to secretaries, and law firms had huge word production departments. Most lawyers I know even maintain their own calendars. The technology innovations have not eliminated the need for all secretaries, but there are far fewer secretaries in the law firms than 20 years ago.




Musicmystery -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:27:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

When's the last time you visited a law firm? The lawyer can still make far more by practicing law and hiring a secretary to work the laptop.


Many of the lawyers I know do first drafts of documents on their laptops. E-mail is widely used for correspondence. This is not 20 years ago where lawyers were dictating letters to secretaries, and law firms had huge word production departments. Most lawyers I know even maintain their own calendars. The technology innovations have not eliminated the need for all secretaries, but there are far fewer secretaries in the law firms than 20 years ago.

Check facts instead of shooting from the hip. Computers have opened opportunities for secretarial professionals:

Secretaries and Administrative Assistants

Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2010-11 Edition

Significant Points

* This occupation ranks among those with the largest number of job openings.
* Opportunities should be best for applicants with extensive knowledge of computer software applications.
* Secretaries and administrative assistants are increasingly assuming responsibilities once reserved for managerial and professional staff.

As the reliance on technology continues to expand in offices, the role of the office professional has greatly evolved. Office automation and organizational restructuring have led secretaries and administrative assistants to increasingly assume responsibilities once reserved for managerial and professional staff.

Some secretaries and administrative assistants, such as legal and medical secretaries, perform highly specialized work requiring knowledge of technical terminology and procedures. For instance, legal secretaries prepare correspondence and legal papers such as summonses, complaints, motions, responses, and subpoenas under the supervision of an attorney or a paralegal. They may also review legal journals and assist with legal research—for example, by verifying quotes and citations in legal briefs. Additionally, legal secretaries often teach newly minted lawyers how to prepare documents for submission to the courts.

The majority of secretaries and administrative assistants are full-time employees who work a standard 40-hour week.

Secretaries and administrative assistants will have among the largest number of job openings due to growth and the need to replace workers who transfer to other occupations or leave this occupation. Opportunities should be best for applicants with extensive knowledge of computer software applications.


http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos151.htm




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:48:27 PM)

Yes there are more secretarial jobs in things like law because mid-level administrative managerial positions have been eliminated. From a head count perspective, law firms today, in New York city, at least, run with fewer administrative staff than they did 20 years ago. And why have they eliminated the managerial positions? Because it cost them less to pay the secretaries to do the job previously done by the mid-level manager. Staff positions in professional businesses like this have still shrunk overall.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:53:01 PM)

And for the record, Musicmystery, as you do not know what I do professionally, perhaps you should not assume that I am shooting from the hip...I am fine with debating these ideas, but please refrain from the ad hominem...not cool....




Lucylastic -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 12:55:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Fucktoy.....They are called Trade Agreements for a reason..
How much in debt is the US to China??
It helps to look at the facts



Simply because 26% of federal debt is to China, I do not feel that I am personally obligated to buy goods that are made in China. I am saying we are each as consumers 100% free to buy things wherever we want. If I choose to look at labels and reject clothing that is made in China, is the government really going to tell me that I can't just because of the U.S. debt issue? I'm sorry, but last I checked this is still a free country, and I don't have to buy anything from China if I don't really want to. I am only speaking about each of us as individuals taking some responsibility for what we purchase and consume. Sometimes large changes can come from small actions. And I think the clothing issue is particularly egregious because most of this clothing ends up as landfill after one season of wear. It's horrendous from so many perspectives. I would also add toys to this list. My nieces and nephews have too much junk. I honestly feel we don't need so much stuff, and that the U.S. economy will survive just fine with fewer cheap Chinese toys and clothing being purchased. And this is my decision to make about how I spend my own money. Not the government's.



I really have zero issue with your choice on how you choose to spend your money personally.
When you believe your way is the way everyone must operate is where I had a problem.
However, I really have no problem with you doing what you wish to do.
ALL I mentioned was the trade amounts and the monetary reality of trade with china, not YOU, in any way shape or form.
IF you thought it was a dig at you, it wasnt.




truckinslave -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 1:15:04 PM)

I love my Kindle.
I especially love it when I'm backpacking. I can carry first aid info, flora/fauna guides, novels, whatever. A little over 8 ounces, hundreds of books.
But- it is, essentially, the death of the bookstore. The loss of the jobs of the people who hauled the books from the printers. It is the death of the print industry (without books, magazines, and newspapers, what's left?). It is the final death knell for the Post Office. It is one of the final nails in the death of the paper industry. Bye-bye to most logging, too.
All of that- entire industries- lost to 17 hours of Chinese slave labor.

Which sounds awful, and would indeed be awful, if the future was going to be the present. But it won't be. The future will be markedly different from the present, much more different than today is from the Dark Ages.

And that future has lots and lots of products, and fewer and fewer jobs.

MM is on here talking about business models and such; and that's all well and good for as far as it goes ( a few years maybe). But my opinion is that we don't have any idea of even the societal model of the future, much less a suitable economic model (and there may not even be "businesses" as we understand them today).

The history of civilization is the story of the decreasing importance of human labor to survival, then to comfort.... perhaps soon to wealth.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? (1/14/2012 1:25:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I really have no problem with you doing what you wish to do.


Sorry if I misunderstood your prior comment. I have only been talking about how we as consumers have a huge impact on the economy in terms of how we choose to spend our money, and that solutions are not always to be found at the government or corporate level. Individual consumers can also bring about change should they wish to do so. Thanks!




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