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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 1:26:34 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 1:30:49 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

And that future has lots and lots of products, and fewer and fewer jobs.


I find your perspective very interesting. But given that the future also is bringing many more people to the world, how will everyone survive without some form of massive wealth redistribution? With employment opportunities dwindling such that a smaller and smaller percentage of the world's population will find work that pays enough - where does that leave much of humanity - unless those who become the "haves" of the future are willing to share what they have with the "have nots". How can we sustain a global free market style economy within this framework? Or should we even try? Fascinating.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 1:45:23 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Email has nearly killed the post office,digital cameras are part of the reason Kodak is in bankruptcy,data storage and management has multiplied what the average office staff can do by the hundreds,the battlefield is ten times deadlier with fewer soldiers needed to accomplish that,and so on and so on.

Not sure that there`s any way for government or an institution to prevent progress and technology from impacting our lives even folks wanted them to.Kinda stupid to suggest it`s possible.

When the Morris Canal was finally dug across the entire state of NJ at great expense and cost to the men who dug it,the steam engine was just being perfected and applied to locomotion.

Until steam moved our bulk freight,it was moved by canal barges pulled by animals.It was the cheapest method.

But steam power made moving freight cheaper,faster and easier.I can`t think of any reason why someone would want to go back or would suggest banning steam power,even though it killed a huge amount of investment in money and man hours from canal building.

It`s just a dumb premise.

If there`s a role for government,it should be to help lessen the impacts of changes/advances by helping people get retrained for a different jobs.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/14/2012 1:51:05 PM >

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 1:55:45 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
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Status: offline 		Clearly the capitalist model of today will not survive as the model for the future.
And that comes from someone who absolutely is the best thing ever. It just won't be the best thing forever.
and, yes there will have to be massive redistribution.

The biggest problem probably will be food, as now. Given food synthesis, water. We will have to control our population or famine and resultant war will control it for us.

However... I expect Total Recall to becme fact. When we can plug into our personal VR machines, choose from a cornucopia of partners, and decide if we want to be her, her, him, it, or the donkey today, with a full BDSM compliment of activities to push into the mix, when our VR partners are as real as those in "real life", when the experiences are indistinguishable from "real"... the birth rate will fall to nothing.

Which will be especially useful when the potential of teleomerase is fulfilled...

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2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 1:57:47 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Jobs (labor) will continue to decline in importance.

Robots can be retrained at the speed of download...

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 2:34:02 PM   
barelynangel


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quote:

Yes, well, except the situation that we have now is that the lawyer is more than gainfully employed and uses his laptop to do all of his secretarial work and the secretary is unemployed with no health care......:)


I tell all of our secretaries especially when new associates come in, teach them how to utilize you and i tell the paralegals the same thing and i have to teach the paralegals many time how to utilize the secretaries because most of them are not taught that in school they are taught to be self-sufficient so for them its automatic.  Especially the newer attorneys think its easier and faster just for them to do what you do, however, its not cost effective because they are wasting billable time  which means money not being brought in which means jobs can be lost and it isn't going to be the attorneys that first get cut.   

I had an associate come up to me the other day asking about a batestamping program he heard i wanted an got in our office on my computer.  He said oh how do i get that on mine.  I said YOU don't - that is not your job to do.  I told him his secretary had it as i was showing her how to use it the other day and he needs to let her do that or the paralegal at the very least (but even that isn't cost effective) because that isn't billable for him to do.    He was like yeah good point.  and like a proud momma, i heard him giving the project to his secretary.

Many support staff don't get it when they shrug and are like well if they want to do it .... and the attorney's do it because they seem to think its easier just for them to do it, they are only digging their own graves.  To me, this is how secretaries and assistants and support staff become obsolete.  They shrugs and say well if they want to do it so be it. 

If people become passive as to what their work is, yeah others will take it over.  Some jobs aren't in control of that but to me support staff is, they need to demand their work if they see others doing what they should be doing. 

The legal field is luckily while hit by the recession, it was not near as hard as many other fields and the field is much bigger and more  diverse in areas.

angel

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 2:47:13 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

If it wasn't for the ATM, our President likes to remind us, a lot more people would have jobs at the bank counters. If it wasn't for the robots, a lot more ex-autoworkers would still be autoworkers. I don't know how widely they have spread, but here in California, automated checkout at the grocery store is the new express lane. How many jobs might those wind up killing?

Should these things be banned, or, at least in these difficult times, should there be a moratorium on new ways to replace human labor with technology?



Outsourcing should be banned. Moving factories from the U.S. to foreign countries is not "free-trade."
The companies that do that should be "banned" from access to our markets.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 2:54:02 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		come back to earth Pops, its not gonna happen EVER no matter who you vote for.
The expectation is unrealistic

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 2:55:18 PM   
MusicalBoredom


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Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		FR

My earlier post was suggesting that technology need not be banned as I do not believe that technology is the root of the unemployment problem.  I also don't think that it's a trade problem.  In the companies that I work with update their technology there might be some shift in the way they manufacture or what they manufacture but the assembly line remains the assembly line.  There is little more "retraining" needed than when a model changes.  People get trained to solder a component here rather than there or to connect these 4 wires instead of the 3 they used to connect.

My suggestion is that some jobs leave because some US companies move their factories oversees for the cheaper labor.  This isn't trade balance, it's not imports and it's not a matter of training.  It's wanting to maximize profits.  I'm not suggesting that they don't have the right to do so.  Companies have a responsibility to their shareholders.  Guess what?  We are the consumers and the shareholders.  We have the power to choose to support those actions or not.  Most people I know that invest want to maximize their profits for retirement or for savings -- they would choose to export jobs if it meant a better return.  I don't fault them but I do say we need to quit blaming made up demons for our mess and take responsibility for the choices we make.

ETA: For the record, I have my own business and I hire people and work for companies that hire people.  My companies makes intelligent devices used in the robot world.


< Message edited by MusicalBoredom -- 1/14/2012 2:58:12 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 3:01:37 PM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

If it wasn't for the ATM, our President likes to remind us, a lot more people would have jobs at the bank counters. If it wasn't for the robots, a lot more ex-autoworkers would still be autoworkers. I don't know how widely they have spread, but here in California, automated checkout at the grocery store is the new express lane. How many jobs might those wind up killing?

Should these things be banned, or, at least in these difficult times, should there be a moratorium on new ways to replace human labor with technology?



Outsourcing should be banned. Moving factories from the U.S. to foreign countries is not "free-trade."
The companies that do that should be "banned" from access to our markets.

How about just taxing it to death to the point where it isn`t profitable.Then the only whiners would be corporate types and their gop lackeys in congress.

We should use access to our American market for leverage,even with home grown American business but especially with multi-national/no-loyalty/big-business.

We don`t have to give our last dimes and children`s futures away to attract businesses to the US.

Commerce is there to serve society.Not the other way around.

But we know that cons will suck it up and vote for Mitt anyway.Don`t we, Pops?


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/14/2012 3:03:31 PM >

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 3:41:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

And for the record, Musicmystery, as you do not know what I do professionally, perhaps you should not assume that I am shooting from the hip...I am fine with debating these ideas, but please refrain from the ad hominem...not cool....

Not an ad hominem at all, straight out statement of fact. You spoke about secretaries in law firms, and you were factually inaccurate. I didn't attack you personally at all, but merely provided the correct information, supported with credible source, and suggested you check facts.

Then, you back pedaled to lost managerial positions (how many law firms have managers?). You ARE shooting from the hip, WHATEVER you do professionally. This is a straight-forward facts vs. statements scenario, and pointing out the correct facts with support is hardly "ad hominem."

Despite your statement above, you don't seem fine with debating at all, but rather, in being right a priori. I'm sorry you feel that way, but nothing here has been directed at anything but your factual inaccuracy.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 3:52:08 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

automated checkout at the grocery store is the new express lane.


Here too. Unless I am only getting a few items... less than 5... I wont use them. Inevitably, something wont ring up and I have to wait on someone to come ring it in for me. Why waste the time.


There's a reason that there are never any lines at Stop & Shop's self checkouts, despite the use of this technology since 1999.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 3:53:10 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

factless harangues


Nailed it.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 4:02:31 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Jobs (labor) will continue to decline in importance.

Robots can be retrained at the speed of download...

Robots can`t dig foundation trenches or install the rough plumbing in a home or put roofing shingles up.Robots can`t pave roads or build bridges.

No matter how much labor saving devices are used,there are still ways to keep people working and productive.

The American worker is one of the most productive in the entire world.

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President Obama

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 4:33:24 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

I try to avoid buying things made in certain countries where I know they treat workers poorly



Workers are treated poorly in this country.  Just look at some of our largest companies and how the workers are treated. 

That said, my son worked in a plastic shop for a while.  He made some children's furniture and sent the furniture to another part of the factory to be boxed.  All of the boxes said "made in China", but we live in NWPA.  Come to find out, the boxes all had that phrase because the company that sold the children's furniture didn't just contract with Port Erie Plastics for manufacturing, but also with a plant in China.  If some the product came from China, all of it had to have that phrase. 

And if you want an "American" made car, don't go to one of the big three.  Toyota has more plants in the US than Ford, GM or Chrysler.  And Nissan bought the plant that used to produced Saturn vehicles, which GM closed down even though Saturn had a growing popularity.  That popularity was well-earned too.  My 2000 Saturn has nearly 150,000 miles and stills runs great and looks great. 

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 4:44:22 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Should these things be banned

What? Do you mean technologies like the internet, computers, internal combustion engines and electricity?

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 4:52:29 PM   
seababy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

The "job killing" didn't come from the technology. The world consumes labor and time saving devices at an incredible rate and those devices are being made by or with the assistance of real people.  The problem is that we all think we need those devices all over and for cheap.  That means they are being made in factories not in the US.  If we as consumers were willing to pay a descent price for technology then the work could be done by American workers at a fare wage that people can afford food, shelter and health care on.  However since American Greed means that we should all get as much money as we can then that means jobs leave.  We as consumers could insist on buying one American made TV instead of 4 foreign made models but we wont do it.  So WE are the job killers, not the Government, not the EPA, not the banks and not technology.



QFT

and there is this as well - http://www.alternet.org/world/151732/21stcentury_slaves_how_corporations_exploit_prison_labor

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 7:59:06 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

Robots can`t dig foundation trenches or install the rough plumbing in a home or put roofing shingles up.Robots can`t pave roads or build bridges.


Yet.

The other interesting that about your post is that you (intuitively?) spoke, essentially, to labor rather than to white collar jobs. We may still need manual labor after, say, doctors are mostly replaced by auto-labs and nano-docs.

But the fact remains that the pace of change is increasing and that our grandchildren will look at the notion of jobs the same way we look at, say, subsistence farming on the frontier.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/14/2012 8:39:41 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		People do not need jobs. Technology potentially frees us from certain labor. The only question is the structure of the society that has not changed in harmony with fundamental technological advances. Most perhaps agree, some aspects of today's order are totally idiotic. For example necessary over-consumption to keep economies going. Many products are intentionally made to break down after short period of use, fashion industry absurdities and so on.... The biggest problem is the distribution of resources. There have been some ideas how to solve it, but the political structure does not allow fundamental changes. (The last is very obvious this election year.) For example, the idea of national dividend comes in mind.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/15/2012 2:14:08 AM   
lemarquis2


Posts: 24
Joined: 9/24/2009
Status: offline 		banning of new technologies has been immensely successful in the past - ask your local weavers, cart-drivers, printsetters, or cinema musicians

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Profile   Post #: 60
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