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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/16/2012 1:19:24 PM   
Lucylastic


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nah that wasnt my point, I actually appreciate the info:) I did lookinto it a while ago , I think it was one of your posts that inspired me last time, , but it bears looking into again, so thankyou

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/16/2012 1:36:00 PM   
MusicalBoredom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

ON the other hand, soaring production raises all kinds of new possibilities...including lowering the barriers to business entry.


That's it right there.

For Example, I have a camera, however, there is no real mount for that camera that can mount all the locations I'd like to mount it, like in my jeep, on my makerbot, on my body, etc.... I'm starting a youtube channel so I'm recording a lot of stuff.

So, in that example, with this camera, there is no place to even buy all the things I want, without my printer I'd either have to rig something out of pvc pipe, and duct tape, or do without, with this I can do it much better, and I can create as many as I want, or I could send anyone the file that has a printer, and now they can make one of their own, and that is where the "economy" of the future lies. Since, I already made a customized camera mount for that specific camera model, that you own, you'd simply pay like a 1.00 or whatever, for the rights to print a copy, and that will be a large chunk of the future economy, IMO.

Essentially itunes for printable objects.


quote:

makerbot

you went and piqued my interest damn your eyes!!!t... like I need a new drug!!!
where was that again
makerbot.com???


The makerbot guys are super nice too.  They will make a printer for you as well.  Their space is also host to some great musical shows from time to time.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/16/2012 1:48:40 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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Since, I sorta hijacked the thread I figure I should point out the Fab@home (the nonsense in the middle should be the at symbol )project as well and the perverted side of 3d printing potential, they aim to allow you to print other materials, like SILICONE, with this device you should be print out your own dildo, or flexible bondage apparatus. LOL. The makerbot uses plastic, so not to suitable for insertion.

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 1/16/2012 1:49:16 PM >

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/16/2012 2:30:06 PM   
FrostedFlake


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The OP makes a fundamental error in supposing preventing 'progress' can be beneficial to the mass. See also ; Luddite.

I recommend a book to those willing to invest the time it takes to understand this common misconception.

http://www.europeaninstitute.org/April-May-2010/w-brian-arthurs-qthe-nature-of-technology-what-it-is-and-how-it-evolvesq.html

Professor Arthur surveys the entire topic of technology, from sticks to microchips. In 256 pages, he explains clearly that the economy and technology are the same thing. He defines technology as a natural phenomenon captured for use to a purpose. He explains how technologies are combined to create new, more complex technologies. He explores how new technologies often make older technologies obsolete. And he looks into how this drives economic and other forms of change.

Attempting to hold back progress to preserve certain jobs (WHOSE?) is a mistake. Note this differs greatly from the idea of selecting technologies carefully to tailor the future to make it cleaner, more egalitarian, safer and sustainable. The economy (technology) has no conscience because it has no brain. Like any machine, allowed to go it's own way, the economy will. A car must have a driver. But attempting to stop progress differs from attempting to guide it.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/16/2012 4:32:47 PM   
kinkbound


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quote:

are you kidding me?

human labor can and should be completely replaced by technology and we should have the golden opportunity to pursue interests of pleasure instead of necessity.


This.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 8:14:44 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Doesnt' have to ease it, just doesn't have to enable it - every time the the Fed raises the interest rate, it throws thousands of people out of work - deliberately - in order to head off demand pull inflation - it means that there are more people competing for fewer jobs, and wages will fall or remain stagnant.

Reagan didn't end the inflationary spiral, Paul Volker did by cutting off the money supply, it worked, and it's a useful tool for handling runaway inflation, but it's employed as a fine tuning mechanism against inflation at the expense of wage and job growth, plain and simple, talking about the evils of automation is a red herring: more automation is what small businesses need to compete, there is no reason that any small business cannot use the same computerized inventory management and accounting systems that Wal Mart uses to make them more competitive, other than the stranglehold on enterprise software by MS, etc., that puts that software out of reach for most small businesses, it amounts to a barrier to entry.


OK, I see where you're going with the Fed and labor market, but while point taken, it's not "pure and simple." You're 45, and haven't seen stagflation. Wages aren't helpful when inflation devalues them at double digit rates. And inflation isn't like locusts...it doesn't just happen by itself; the conditions that caused it need counteracting. The Fed does with monetary policy quickly what Congress may or not do slowly with fiscal policy. More jobs at devalued wages creates exactly that two-tiered economy you mentioned earlier. In fact, this experience is what taught me that to be financially secure, I needed to move from laborer to capitalist, and gradually, I did.

I agree that any small business can use the same computer automation; I disagree that they are shut out. They both can and do. I can rattle off a long list of area businesses using technology to run successful business that formerly would have sunk under labor costs. Bad for labor? Those same laborers can start a successful business more easily than every before. My seniors do exactly that--design and propose a viable new business, and some of them have used their own proposals in real life, while the rest impressed the hell out of employers and got jobs right out of school.


The conditions that caused stagflation, which I do remember quite well, were the Kennedy tax cuts, which led to increases in demand without corresponding increases in productivity, which led to supply side theory, which Laffer (and others) came up with when the Laffer curve predictions turned out to be completely erroneous, which is why there was low inflation throughout the Eighties in spite of wage growth and near full employment, Greenspan's interest rate manipulation just triggered the tech sell off prematurely, which would have happened eventually anyway.

Supply side tax cuts did little to increase production either however, although they did accomplish the goal of greatly thinning out middle management which was considered to be at the heart of stagnant productivity, and in a roundabout way, via junk bonds, did finance the PC and internet revolution which did lead at last to productivity increases.

However, there is no shortage of liquid capital anymore, the rationale of supply side theory, in which monetarist policy plays a central role of keeping wages, and thus demand, under control, has outlived it's usefulness, it worked only too well, commodification has been the trend in manufacturing, too few people chasing too many goods, and the thin margins have shut the door to all but large corporations that can afford the capital investments in modern mass production equipment and technology, and driven outsourcing to further cut variable costs by seeking out the cheapest and least regulated labor markets.

Conditions of plentiful supply and weak demand however, are not much better for manufacturers, and in that situation, the market is going to tend towards cabals, monopolies and rent seeking, as established corporations scramble to protect their threatened profit centers - and guess what?

If all the money being poured into lobbying were being spent on capital improvements, like lean manufacturing and cradle to cradle, there would be no recession, the trade deficit would start looking a little more balanced, and fewer corporate subsidies combined with economic growth would erode the deficit from both ends - politics, in this instance is crowding out economic growth, leading to increasing dis-economy, and that trend is going to continue as long as the right thinks it can keep getting something for nothing, i.e., bigger dividends with fewer taxes and more wage cuts.

All this choking the chicken is strangling the goose baby.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 8:38:01 AM   
xssve


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Meantime, hostile takeovers in the Eighties, done in the name of "reorganization" has already done most of the damage to small business, eradicating small and medium sized businesses almost across the board, to be replaced with the computer managed "big boxes" - retail in particular, hardware, household goods, departments stores, pretty much all of your traditional small businesses - unless you live in a rural area too small for big boxes, about the only thing left is restaurants, and odds and ends too small for big corps to bother with, landscaping and construction (which the investment banks recently managed to fuck up), maintenance etc.

Home manufacturing is the latest thing for everybody else, there is a smallish market for handmade merchandise, and because of the lack of creativity in mass manufacturing, even those people are getting their designs ripped off, the old school primitive capital crowd wont be satisfied till we look like an Eastern European dystopia, that's the model.

Been there, done that, called it the Industrial Revolution, not that pretty at all.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 4:09:00 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Fuel efficient cars could have been designed in the 70s...instead, the Big Three invested cash in high returning money markets at the time while German, Swedish, and Japanese companies invested for the future.


In 1963 the plymoth valiant took the first seven places in the mobile economy run at 36 mpg...how many cars in 2012 actually get 36 mpg.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 4:12:35 PM   
Musicmystery


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Quite a few, actually. Mine gets 40.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 4:49:36 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Quite a few, actually. Mine gets 40.



What percentage of the u.s. fleet would you suppose gets more than 36 mpg?
My point was that 36mpg was available out of a 4000 lb car with 200 hp in 1963. If as you claim, your car gets 4 mpg more than a 50 year old car that does not seem like much improvement to me.

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RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 5:01:06 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



The American worker is one of the most productive in the entire world.



Here is another opinion


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/january_february_2012/features/the_myth_of_american_productiv034576.php

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/17/2012 7:42:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Quite a few, actually. Mine gets 40.



What percentage of the u.s. fleet would you suppose gets more than 36 mpg?
My point was that 36mpg was available out of a 4000 lb car with 200 hp in 1963. If as you claim, your car gets 4 mpg more than a 50 year old car that does not seem like much improvement to me.


Since my point was that we had the technology back then, I think this just underscores that point.

We should be getting 60-80 today. You can Google the rest yourself.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/18/2012 5:50:08 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Fuel efficient cars could have been designed in the 70s...instead, the Big Three invested cash in high returning money markets at the time while German, Swedish, and Japanese companies invested for the future.


In 1963 the plymoth valiant took the first seven places in the mobile economy run at 36 mpg...how many cars in 2012 actually get 36 mpg.
That was actually a Duster, an A body derived from the Valiant, which was a very successful design that could be optimized for either power or fuel efficiency.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/18/2012 6:10:13 AM   
xssve


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The Dodge/Chrystler/Plymouth was one of the more innovative American car companies and was one of the first to start downsizing their designs for economy, unfortunately, the American market preferred muscle over economy - even Ford had a little commuter with a Three cylinder engine, often derisively referred to a a "sewing machine motor" that in some ways presaged the original Honda Civics that got 50 MPG, but for the most part, these were essentially tweaks of power to weight ratio rather than advances in engine design, still an ongoing dispute: smaller cars are less safe when surrounded by the huge SUV's the American market prefers - when gas prices are low.

In some ways, it was the fault of CAFE standards,which limited cars, but exempted trucks, leaving the midsized family cars - station wagons, mini-vans, etc. which necessarily weigh more, in underpowered limbo - trucks have to meet a minimum GVW in order to be exempt from the fuel standard, so the current standards enforces a binary division or one extreme or the other at the expense of the middle.

Again, nothing wrong with regulation, per se, for a time it revived the American car industry and led to current advances in engine design, but all regulations should be subject to review and revision as needed, you're always flirting with the law of unintended consequences, in a changing economy there is no such thing as set and forget.

< Message edited by xssve -- 1/18/2012 6:16:11 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/18/2012 7:03:24 AM   
Musicmystery


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CAFE is a red herring. Efficiency came from superior design advances in foreign auto manufacturers rather than U.S. Big Three clinging to and ramming down our throats the older models they wanted to make instead of what consumers wanted.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/18/2012 9:51:17 AM   
xssve


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True, fuel injection was pretty standard on lot of German cars, and some Japanese, long before any US manufacturers offered it, even after CAFE. I had a type II with fuel injection when it was still a custom, aftermarket build for most American cars.

Anyway, Plymouth Feather Duster, it was an option kit

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Should "job killing" technologies be banned? - 1/20/2012 11:10:54 PM   
truckinslave


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quote:

In 1963 the plymoth valiant took the first seven places in the mobile economy run at 36 mpg..


I'm not sure what your point is, but perhaps you should look at the emissions profile.....

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Profile   Post #: 97
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