RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (Full Version)

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fucktoyprincess -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 5:47:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

As has been established time and time again, most modern-day Republicans are hypocrites.
as much as it pains me to admit it, i can't dispute that statement, nor most of your post.

however, there are some of us who really do believe in the benefits of smaller government and trying to live within our means, and no, we all wouldn't make cuts to social welfare programs first.


I think theoretically it is interesting to bandy about the term "smaller government". And then there is the reality. Our population is what? 307 million? At that size, in order to have the aspects of government that we would all expect to have - defense, security, education, some form of social safety net, judiciary, public health - we are already talking "big government" to make that happen. And notice that I didn't even mention actual Congress. One needs $$ to pay for all of these things, including people who work to make them happen. It doesn't come from nowhere. I do not think it is reasonable to speak of "small government" when you are trying to provide proper government and public services to 307 million people.

I don't know any country on the face of the planet that has "small government", except for maybe really, really small countries (there is some island in the pacific that I think has a population of 50. I suspect they don't need a large government).

So again, if one wants small government - move to a really small country, or move somewhere where no one pays tax, because you can't pay for government when there is no tax money being collected. But really, how many of us want to live without government. Think about that for a moment. No police. No army. No public schools. No roads. No public health system. Personally, I'm not interested in living like uncivilized barbarians. I'm quite happy to PAY for government. It is part of what makes us a civilized society.

p.s. If I'm doing the math correctly, based on the 2012 budget numbers, government expenditures average around $12,000 per person. Is that right? Actually doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. Yes, perhaps on the margin one can make it less. But much less? I doubt it. But I would like people to think about what would be a reasonable amount to spend per person to have a safe, stable government. If one is not willing to pay for government then I feel one should not take advantage of the services that government provides. Then don't drive on the roads, don't get your free flu shot, don't send your kids to school, don't allow your parents to collect medicare, etc. Where do people think the money comes from for all of these things??? There is no free lunch.




GotSteel -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 8:13:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
The real reason the right wants to control access to birth control is to protect insurance companies from having to cover the costs of birth control. I am sure if you peel back the layers of this, the insurance companies are lobbying the right wing on birth control. This is not actually about the morality of preventing pregnancy. This is about money.

Having walked by a Planned Parenthood a couple days ago and been subjected to quite a few Bible thumpers last year I don't think this is the case. I think it's all about a superstition in the Christian Right that God hates birth control.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 8:16:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
The real reason the right wants to control access to birth control is to protect insurance companies from having to cover the costs of birth control. I am sure if you peel back the layers of this, the insurance companies are lobbying the right wing on birth control. This is not actually about the morality of preventing pregnancy. This is about money.

Having walked by a Planned Parenthood a couple days ago and been subjected to quite a few Bible thumpers last year I don't think this is the case. I think it's all about a superstition in the Christian Right that God hates birth control.


It's that "Go forth and multiply" thingie from Genesis.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 8:45:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
The real reason the right wants to control access to birth control is to protect insurance companies from having to cover the costs of birth control. I am sure if you peel back the layers of this, the insurance companies are lobbying the right wing on birth control. This is not actually about the morality of preventing pregnancy. This is about money.

Having walked by a Planned Parenthood a couple days ago and been subjected to quite a few Bible thumpers last year I don't think this is the case. I think it's all about a superstition in the Christian Right that God hates birth control.



The picketing in front of most Planned Parenthood clinics in the U.S. is due to abortion counseling and services that they provide. It is less so about birth control. The birth control battle will continue to play out based on the insurance issues involved.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/survey-nearly-three-four-voters-america-support-fully-covering-prescription-birth-control-33863.htm




popeye1250 -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 9:21:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

Almost every GOP presidential candidate says they want "smaller government" and "less government intrusion" -

BUT -

At least one GOP presidential candidate (Santorum) wants to overturn the SCOTUS ruling in Griswold v. Connecticut and ban all forms of contraception - even those forms used by married hetrosexual couples.

How can you make sure married hetrosexual couples aren't using any form of contraception (other than the "rhythm method") without government intrusion into a married hetrosexual couple's home/bedroom?

And, if you allow the police to enter married hetrosexual couples' homes to make sure that married hetrosexual couples are not using contraceptives, would it not follow that you would also allow the police to enter married hetrosexual couples' homes to make sure that married hetrosexual couples are not using floggers/handcuffs/a St. Andrew's Cross/etc.?

How can you reconcile "smaller government" and "less government intrusion" with a federal ban on all forms of contraception, enforced by the local/state/federal police?



FD, that surely is a rhetorical question.
Do you know how many guns there are in the hands of U.S. Citizens?
Would you care to take a guess how many dead cops there'd be in the first few *days* of something like that?
And cops carry "pea shooters" compared to what a lot of people have in this country.
Think about it, even the people in Massachusetts would be resisting. Would they need warrents to search your house? How many houses are there in the country?




tazzygirl -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 9:25:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
The real reason the right wants to control access to birth control is to protect insurance companies from having to cover the costs of birth control. I am sure if you peel back the layers of this, the insurance companies are lobbying the right wing on birth control. This is not actually about the morality of preventing pregnancy. This is about money.

Having walked by a Planned Parenthood a couple days ago and been subjected to quite a few Bible thumpers last year I don't think this is the case. I think it's all about a superstition in the Christian Right that God hates birth control.



Its not the insurance companies. Its far cheaper for them to provide birth control than the cost of delivery.. and heaven forbid if anything goes wrong... that only adds to the cost.




Lucylastic -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 9:53:57 AM)

The Obama Administration is standing by a decision to require all insurance plans to cover the use of contraceptives, but said Friday it would give some employers an additional year to comply.

The rule, which goes into effect August 1, 2012, requires all insurance plans to cover the cost of birth control. Many non-profits with religious affiliations, such as Catholic universities and hospitals, say that will force them to violate their basic tenets.

The Department of Health and Services announced Friday those employers would have until August 1, 2013, to meet the new requirement.

While women’s health advocates praised the decision, many conservatives and organized Catholics responded with fury.

“In effect, the president is saying we have a year to figure out how to violate our consciences,” said a statement from Cardinal-designate Timothy M. Dolan, archbishop of New York and president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). “The government should not force Americans to act as if pregnancy is a disease to be prevented at all costs.”

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/20/obama-administration-extends-one-deadline-on-birth-control-coverage/

then ..
ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Rep. Michele Bachmann predicted Sunday that the November elections will end abortion as she made her first public appearance in Minnesota since dropping out of the Republican presidential race.Bachmann said the Supreme Court decision should be repealed within the next year."Here on our watch we will stand, we will stand for life, we will never forget, we will never give up, and next year we will gather in a day of celebration when we have finally ended abortion in this all important election," she said. "Join me this year. Choose life."

With the personhood bills and all the other "morality" laws and bills being introduced, its Abortion, Birthcontrol AND money.
44 bills on abortion was the last figures.
Im trying to find the linkage for that source...
Personally I dont see how any self respecting woman can find it acceptable to have their physical rights summarily decided by religious right wing politicians or the" church".
But I sure as hell am not gonna deny them the right to decide for themselves.
I wonder why they cant do the same for me?




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 10:03:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

The Obama Administration is standing by a decision to require all insurance plans to cover the use of contraceptives, but said Friday it would give some employers an additional year to comply.

The rule, which goes into effect August 1, 2012, requires all insurance plans to cover the cost of birth control. Many non-profits with religious affiliations, such as Catholic universities and hospitals, say that will force them to violate their basic tenets.

The Department of Health and Services announced Friday those employers would have until August 1, 2013, to meet the new requirement.

While women’s health advocates praised the decision, many conservatives and organized Catholics responded with fury.

“In effect, the president is saying we have a year to figure out how to violate our consciences,” said a statement from Cardinal-designate Timothy M. Dolan, archbishop of New York and president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). “The government should not force Americans to act as if pregnancy is a disease to be prevented at all costs.”

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/20/obama-administration-extends-one-deadline-on-birth-control-coverage/

then ..
ST. PAUL, Minn. -- Rep. Michele Bachmann predicted Sunday that the November elections will end abortion as she made her first public appearance in Minnesota since dropping out of the Republican presidential race.Bachmann said the Supreme Court decision should be repealed within the next year."Here on our watch we will stand, we will stand for life, we will never forget, we will never give up, and next year we will gather in a day of celebration when we have finally ended abortion in this all important election," she said. "Join me this year. Choose life."

With the personhood bills and all the other "morality" laws and bills being introduced, its Abortion, Birthcontrol AND money.
44 bills on abortion was the last figures.
Im trying to find the linkage for that source...
Personally I dont see how any self respecting woman can find it acceptable to have their physical rights summarily decided by religious right wing politicians or the" church".
But I sure as hell am not gonna deny them the right to decide for themselves.
I wonder why they cant do the same for me?


Yes, the current battle on birth control is over insurance coverage.

The abortion bills if they pass will be challenged in the courts and that battle will play itself out in the courts.

Again, if you care, please donate to Planned Parenthood and the ACLU.




Lucylastic -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 10:11:48 AM)

preaching to the converted [;)]




Moonhead -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 12:31:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
It's that "Go forth and multiply" thingie from Genesis.

Maybe if they updated the translation to God telling his followers to fuck off, that might have some sort of positive impact on their behaviour?




DomKen -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/23/2012 1:33:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Under the Constitution and Bill of Rights the States had huge powers denied the federal government.
The establishment clause did not apply to the States.

And we as a nation fought a war over whether that was a good idea or not and decided to extend all Constitutional protections to the states.




truckinslave -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/24/2012 6:54:35 AM)

quote:

And we as a nation fought a war over whether that was a good idea or not and decided to extend all Constitutional protections to the states.


Er, no.
Slavery was one of the reasons for the Civil War, certainly.
Passage of an amendment that had not even been conceived was not.




DomKen -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/24/2012 7:32:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

And we as a nation fought a war over whether that was a good idea or not and decided to extend all Constitutional protections to the states.


Er, no.
Slavery was one of the reasons for the Civil War, certainly.
Passage of an amendment that had not even been conceived was not.

The available evidence contradicts your claim.

Simply put the Civil War was fought over whether the states or federal government was the more powerful. The states rights side lost and the 14th is the implementation of that fact.




tazzygirl -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/24/2012 7:43:21 AM)

The war was actually started because Southern slave owners could not travel and be assured that their "property" would remain theirs. If a man from Georgia traveled to a free slave state, and his slaves ran away, they states were telling them they would do nothing to retrieve their property.

It is but one of the reasons... but an important one as many saw this as a lack to uphold the Constitution...

The Fugitive Slave Clause of the U.S. Constitution (Article 4, Section 2, Clause 3 Note: Superseded by the Thirteenth Amendment)[1] guaranteed the right of a slaveholder to recover an escaped slave. The Fugitive Slave Act of 1793 created the legal mechanism by which that could be accomplished

On March 29, 1788, the State of Pennsylvania passed an amendment to one of its laws (An Act for the Gradual Abolition of Slavery, originally enacted March 1, 1780); this amendment stated that, No negro or mulatto slave ...shall be removed out of this state, with the design and intention that the place of abode or residence of such slave or servant shall be thereby altered or changed.
On March 25, 1826, the State of Pennsylvania passed a further law, which stated in part:
If any person or persons shall, from and after the passing of this act, by force and violence, take and carry away, or cause to be taken or carried away, and shall, by fraud or false pretense, seduce, or cause to be seduced, or shall attempt so to take, carry away or seduce, any negro or mulatto, from any part or parts of this commonwealth, to any other place or places whatsoever, out of this commonwealth, with a design and intention of selling and disposing of, or of causing to be sold, or of keeping and detaining, or of causing to be kept and detained, such negro or mulatto, as a slave or servant for life, or for any term whatsoever, every such person or persons, his or their aiders or abettors, shall on conviction thereof, in any court of this commonwealth having competent jurisdiction, be deemed guilty of a felony.


These two set up the battle for State's rights.

Prigg and his lawyer argued that the 1788 and 1826 Pennsylvania laws were unconstitutional:
First, because of the injunction in Article IV of the U.S. Constitution that No person held to service or labor in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due..
Second, because, the exercise of Federal legislation, such as that undertaken by Congress in passing the act of the February 12th 1793, supersedes any State law.


Problem is, that when the Supreme Court voided the PA law, they left PA with a huge back door. Which PA and other northern and western states employed.





Fightdirecto -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/24/2012 6:26:59 PM)

You shoot the first cop who arrives on your doorstep with a warrant to search your home for illegal possession of condoms (under a federal law pushed through by President Santorum) - and 50 more arrive to bring you in, dead or alive, for shooting a cop. How long can you hold them off with your hunting rifle? The NRA might buy you a nice headstone - but you'll still be a dead "hero" - or, more likely, just another story on the 6:00 PM news about a "lone wolf nutcase".




popeye1250 -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/25/2012 12:01:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

You shoot the first cop who arrives on your doorstep with a warrant to search your home for illegal possession of condoms (under a federal law pushed through by President Santorum) - and 50 more arrive to bring you in, dead or alive, for shooting a cop. How long can you hold them off with your hunting rifle? The NRA might buy you a nice headstone - but you'll still be a dead "hero" - or, more likely, just another story on the 6:00 PM news about a "lone wolf nutcase".


Lol, "hunting rifle?"
"Lone wolf?" If they tried that shit don't you then think that they'd be telling the News not to run any "bad" stories like that "so as not to upset the public?
If things got that bad I'd be shooting them in the back across the street at my neighbor's houses!!!
Really, how long do you think the cops would last in this country if they tried that shit? I mean really.
Fight, at what point do The Citizens put their foot down and say "NO!" to *their* government?
That's the kind of thing that got The People riled up in Massachusetts in the 1700's. "Taxation without representation", "Stamp taxes, " Quartering Troops in private homes" "Seizing Firearms," Dumping British tea into Boston harbor. have you ever heard of a guy named "Thomas Jefferson?"
Remember Lexington Green? "*THE* shot heard 'round the world?" *All it takes is *one* small spark to ignite a giant conflagration.*
Do you (really) think that The People are going to stand still for the govt. trampling on the sanctity of their homes and kicking in their front doors?
What the hell is Duval Patrick putting in the water up there in the birthplace of the American Revolution?
That used to be a great state to live in in the 50's, 60's and 70's, what happened up there to make the people so spineless?
I'd rather go to arms with Thomas Jefferson than Adolf Hitler.
So,.....are you trying to say that if the Boston cops kicked in your door without a warrant and demanded your condoms ("Roughriders,.....designed by a female gynochologist for the pleasure of a woman.") that you'd hand them over without so much as kicking one in the balls?
What has this country come to that people would even contemplate such a thing?
What if the govt tried to seize all firearms in this country, how many "lone wolves" do you think would be shooting back?
"First they told me to shut up. Then they came for my condoms, then they came for....."




popeye1250 -> RE: Possible rhetorical question, but... (1/25/2012 12:26:34 AM)

Fight, when Oblunder tried to sing like Al Green did you get an erection?




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