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RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/14/2012 10:20:28 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Tweak, what's with the melodramatics, "MURDER?"
It's not "murder" that's the "penalty" they pay for being pirates. Don't you think they're aware of that?
"They" got caught so it was *they* who had to pay the point.
Boy, you do know that if you were in the U.S. during the Barbary Pirate days and you expressed sympathy for pirates you'd be hung from a tree, right?
I don't know what it is about the leftists, they always seem to show sympathy for the *bad guys.*
Also, pirates have killed plenty of people, was it last year or the year before that two German or French couples were "murdered" on their pleasure boat?
And on plenty of Merchantmen as well.

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Post #: 21

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/14/2012 10:35:02 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I'm thinking they were off the ship before it was hit. I looked again and about 1:04 to 1:10 is the first serious hits. Previous to that, there were a bunch of people on the stern deck. When the ship starts taking hits, noone. There was also noone abandoning ship, nor were there any heads bobbing in the water.
Early in the video, the vessel was quite sclose to the warship. When the shooting started, it was several hundred meters away. Rule one of an engagement. You don't let someone get farther away before you try to kill them.
In addition, the ship is not moving at all when the Russians open fire on it. When you are looking down the barrel of a warship that isnt taking prisoners, you will have the throttle pushed to the stops. That boat is pervectly still.
Logical conclusion:

The pirates were taken into custody and then the ship was used for target practice. Editing of the video made it look like they blew them away.

If they took anybody on board before opening up I didn't notice. I did however see at least one maybe two heads in the water (I do think some were on board during fire) that survived the first salvo but I am thinking...not the ensuing barrage.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 22

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/14/2012 10:41:17 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I'm thinking they were off the ship before it was hit. I looked again and about 1:04 to 1:10 is the first serious hits. Previous to that, there were a bunch of people on the stern deck. When the ship starts taking hits, noone. There was also noone abandoning ship, nor were there any heads bobbing in the water.
Early in the video, the vessel was quite sclose to the warship. When the shooting started, it was several hundred meters away. Rule one of an engagement. You don't let someone get farther away before you try to kill them.
In addition, the ship is not moving at all when the Russians open fire on it. When you are looking down the barrel of a warship that isnt taking prisoners, you will have the throttle pushed to the stops. That boat is pervectly still.
Logical conclusion:

The pirates were taken into custody and then the ship was used for target practice. Editing of the video made it look like they blew them away.

If they took anybody on board before opening up I didn't notice. I did however see at least one maybe two heads in the water (I do think some were on board during fire) that survived the first salvo but I am thinking...not the ensuing barrage.

I didnt see em but you may either have younger eyes or a better monitor..or both. My main evidence was the fact that the boat wasn't moving at all when they opened up. If there was anyone onboard, they'd have been running like hell. As for not seeing them arrest them, editing.

BUT, I'll ad. If you saw them onboard, I'll bow to better eyes.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 1/14/2012 10:43:15 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/14/2012 11:09:39 PM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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I have this vague recollection of President Obama ordering the taking-out of some pirates a couple months into his admin. and a bunch of republicans either whining that it was to harsh or whining that it made friend of and pirate enabler bush look like a buffoon.

rush:

"President Obama Ordered the Killing of Three Black Muslim Kids"

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2009/04/14/president_obama_ordered_the_killing_of_three_black_muslim_kids

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Post #: 24

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 2:47:46 AM

tweakabelle

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Tweak, what's with the melodramatics, "MURDER?"
It's not "murder" that's the "penalty" they pay for being pirates. Don't you think they're aware of that?
"They" got caught so it was *they* who had to pay the point.
Boy, you do know that if you were in the U.S. during the Barbary Pirate days and you expressed sympathy for pirates you'd be hung from a tree, right?

Nowadays, deliberately killing someone unlawfully is murder pops. It doesn't matter who, when or where. The law is not something that is applied selectively. Civilised people observe the rule of law 24/7/365. It's one of the basic differences between civilised and uncivilised people. Nowadays we use trials in courts to determine legal liability - not videos on YouTube or Internet forums. People are innocent until found guilty at a fair trial.

These propositions are basic principles of the rule of law and justice that you seem to be ignoring pops, or at the very least applying selectively. Nowadays, unless the killings (if in fact they occurred, there's some doubt) were sanctioned by law, they are murder. Now that's a really simple proposition pops. Which bit don't you understand?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/15/2012 2:50:37 AM >

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Post #: 25

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 3:21:47 AM

Kirata

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~ FR ~

The Human Cost of Somali Piracy

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 26

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 5:01:25 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think we have but if you listen to some little girl from Australia they are all murdering thugs. And I'll bet many here would argue with you...They believe we are indiscriminate world bullies. I guess it is the price we pay when we try to fulfill our duty as the worlds preeminent power.

Butch

Any chance of you re-reading Tweaks actual post, that would be the grown up thing to do. She didnt say what you claim, yet in your eagerness to defend everything American you jumped in with both feet. Tweaks posed the question about sinking boats with people on them and asked if it was SOP.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 27

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 5:43:45 AM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

The Human Cost of Somali Piracy

K.

I'm not advancing any defence of the behaviour of Somali pirates Kirata. I don't doubt that they have engaged in despicable acts, acts that are totally unacceptable. But that's not the point here at all.

Even the very worst offenders in your country or mine enjoys the right to a fair trial. Ted Bundy got one, so did Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Dahlmer too, and they don't come much worse than any of those three. Even the butchers of the Khmer Rouge are getting a fair trial as I write.

To slaughter alleged pirates in cold blood, as is suggested in the video and the OP, is not the answer. Arrest them, put them on trial and let convicted pirates pay the price the courts decide. That is the way civilised people handle these matters. To mow them down like rabid dogs is to reduce ourselves to their level.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/15/2012 5:49:54 AM >

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Post #: 28

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 7:00:45 AM

kdsub

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No my friend she was digging at popeye for his comments... why don't you read all the posts so you can follow the thought process and intelligently join the conversation.

Butch

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Post #: 29

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 7:09:39 AM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

To slaughter alleged pirates in cold blood, as is suggested in the video and the OP, is not the answer. Arrest them, put them on trial and let convicted pirates pay the price the courts decide. That is the way civilised people handle these matters. To mow them down like rabid dogs is to reduce ourselves to their level.

Do ya think that video may have been edited by someone other than the Russian Navy... I mean I know they are joining the new world but the accompanying music is not exactly like Svyashchennaya Voyna.

What you see is nothing like what really happened...there is not enough evidence to condemn or commend...but don't let that stop ya... you never do.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/15/2012 7:24:42 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 30

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 7:31:26 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

But, President Candy Ass wants the military to,..."arrest" those scumbags and then,.....bring them to the U.S. for,...."trial!"

OMG not that. It is so much better if we sink to the level of our enemies, right pops?

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Post #: 31

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 8:08:42 AM

Anaxagoras

Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I'm thinking they were off the ship before it was hit. I looked again and about 1:04 to 1:10 is the first serious hits. Previous to that, there were a bunch of people on the stern deck. When the ship starts taking hits, noone. There was also noone abandoning ship, nor were there any heads bobbing in the water.
Early in the video, the vessel was quite sclose to the warship. When the shooting started, it was several hundred meters away. Rule one of an engagement. You don't let someone get farther away before you try to kill them.
In addition, the ship is not moving at all when the Russians open fire on it. When you are looking down the barrel of a warship that isnt taking prisoners, you will have the throttle pushed to the stops. That boat is pervectly still.
Logical conclusion:

The pirates were taken into custody and then the ship was used for target practice. Editing of the video made it look like they blew them away.

If they took anybody on board before opening up I didn't notice. I did however see at least one maybe two heads in the water (I do think some were on board during fire) that survived the first salvo but I am thinking...not the ensuing barrage.

I didnt see em but you may either have younger eyes or a better monitor..or both. My main evidence was the fact that the boat wasn't moving at all when they opened up. If there was anyone onboard, they'd have been running like hell. As for not seeing them arrest them, editing.

BUT, I'll ad. If you saw them onboard, I'll bow to better eyes.

Had another : at the video. As far as I can see, the video wasn’t supposed to be documenting a Russian response to piracy but just a stylised video as a display of strength. There is a lot of editing, cuts back and forth to the same shots of guns moving rhythmically to music, firing etc. It isn’t even edited to a basic sequence as there are shots in the first third of the video that show the pirate ship sinking (e.g. 0:58) as in the latter part of the video. There is also a big visible jump in the coverage from much of the first part of the video where the pirates are on board evidentally trying to escape to the latter part where the Ruskies seem to be basically sinking the ship whilst having a bit of fun in the process. That’s why I said initially that the pirates probably hadn’t been killed on the ship. There are a few shots latterly with what might be human heads in the water near the ship but they don’t look like people swimming away and were still there after a lot of flak landing right in same place so its more likely to be floating debris.

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(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 32

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 8:45:42 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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Maybe we should all use this thread as an object lesson about how carefully edited video can be used to inflame emotions in people.

Remember. When you see something on the net or in the news, your first thought shouldn't be "How awesome" or "How Awful".

Your first thought should be "What do those who presented this WANT want me to think?"
Secondly, give it the 'sniff test' and turn on your "bullshit detector".
Just because someone agrees with you idealogically doesn't mean they aren't lying to you and it's embarassing as hell when you repeat their lies and get caught in it.
Likewise. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't being 100% truthful.

Learn to read (or watch) critically.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

Post #: 33

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 9:46:22 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If there were people aboard that doomed vessel, then we have just seen a video of murder. Unprovoked, unnecessary pointless murder. M - U - R - D - E - R.

As the saying goes...

Spetsnaz: 10 hostages, 2 terrorists, 12 bodybags. Mission accomplished.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 1/15/2012 9:49:49 AM >

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 34

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 9:58:47 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

The Human Cost of Somali Piracy

K.

I'm not advancing any defence of the behaviour of Somali pirates Kirata. I don't doubt that they have engaged in despicable acts, acts that are totally unacceptable. But that's not the point here at all.

Even the very worst offenders in your country or mine enjoys the right to a fair trial. Ted Bundy got one, so did Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Dahlmer too, and they don't come much worse than any of those three. Even the butchers of the Khmer Rouge are getting a fair trial as I write.

To slaughter alleged pirates in cold blood, as is suggested in the video and the OP, is not the answer. Arrest them, put them on trial and let convicted pirates pay the price the courts decide. That is the way civilised people handle these matters. To mow them down like rabid dogs is to reduce ourselves to their level.

"Reduce ourselves to their level?"

Tweak, ***they're*** the ones who were engaging in piracy, not us.

And, Bundy, McVeigh and Dahmer were U.S. citizens.

_____________________________

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Post #: 35

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 10:36:27 AM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No my friend she was digging at popeye for his comments... why don't you read all the posts so you can follow the thought process and intelligently join the conversation.

Butch

You mean like you did with your "little Australian girl" remark ? As I said, read Tweaks post again, this time without the blinkers.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 36

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 10:53:23 AM

lovmuffin

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Whatever happened to walking the plank ??

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Post #: 37

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 11:47:45 AM

Miserlou

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Joined: 12/20/2011
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it went away when we decided that we would like to follow a due process of law where everybody is considered innocent until proven otherwise and is entitled to fair trial with a competent and informed defense.

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and the history books forgot about us

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Post #: 38

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 11:49:06 AM

Anaxagoras

Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Maybe we should all use this thread as an object lesson about how carefully edited video can be used to inflame emotions in people.

Remember. When you see something on the net or in the news, your first thought shouldn't be "How awesome" or "How Awful".

Your first thought should be "What do those who presented this WANT want me to think?"
Secondly, give it the 'sniff test' and turn on your "bullshit detector".
Just because someone agrees with you idealogically doesn't mean they aren't lying to you and it's embarassing as hell when you repeat their lies and get caught in it.
Likewise. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't being 100% truthful.

Learn to read (or watch) critically.

I largely agree with your viewpoint although I think it is largely impossible to truly switch off one's initial reactions as people come to material with a lot of preconceived ideas so it may be more fruitful to critically analyse this stuff subsequently. Personally I thought the video was designed to excite a sort of macho booyah response.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 39

RE: This is how Russian Sailors handle pirates. - 1/15/2012 12:34:08 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

Even the very worst offenders in your country or mine enjoys the right to a fair trial. Ted Bundy got one, so did Timothy McVeigh, Jeffrey Dahlmer too, and they don't come much worse than any of those three. Even the butchers of the Khmer Rouge are getting a fair trial as I write.

To slaughter alleged pirates in cold blood, as is suggested in the video and the OP, is not the answer. Arrest them, put them on trial and let convicted pirates pay the price the courts decide. That is the way civilised people handle these matters. To mow them down like rabid dogs is to reduce ourselves to their level.

"Reduce ourselves to their level?"

Tweak, ***they're*** the ones who were engaging in piracy, not us.

And, Bundy, McVeigh and Dahmer were U.S. citizens.

There's no evidence I've seen of the 'victims' engaging in piracy or any other crime, pops. You're imagining or inventing things. The victims are alleged pirates and retain that status until convicted of piracy by a court of law.

OTOH some people seem to be advocating lynch law, extra-judicial killing and have even made certain claims/admissions in this respect. So it could be argued that the alleged pirates are being dragged down to the level of those people ie. that of self-confessed common murderers. I'd prefer to leave discussion of the relative statuses of pirates and murderers to people happy to dwell in that particular cesspit.

Basic principles such as the rule of law and human rights (every person on this planet has human rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) are UNIVERSAL in their application, no matter the circumstances or alleged circumstances. To suggest that US citizens are entitled to fair trials and human rights but Somalis aren't is pure racism.

I suppose one either believes in the universal rule of law and universal human rights or one doesn't. There's no compromises here, no selective applications. Clearly, pops, the self-serving position you propose isn't consistent with belief in these universal principles.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/15/2012 12:41:15 PM >

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Post #: 40

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