RE: iPhones and child labor (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 1:07:21 AM)

Someone may want to clue her in on a few things she obviously has missed. Like the fact that no one made a wish list?




SpiritedRadiance -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 1:17:53 AM)

From my understanding most Chinese factories, supply room and board for its workers and cut the cost of living about 30%.

I dont have links, this was from someone who went to china regularly because he manufactured there. So 11 a day would equal about 150 a day here with out the expenses of room and board.




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 1:21:47 AM)

8 people to a room? They are dorm style. I think your math needs a bit of adjusting.




SpiritedRadiance -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 1:32:20 AM)

Its a roof over ones head, as well as addional money for needs that they see fit, its always having food in ones stomach, its always having a warm bed to sleep in. and 8 to a room isnt that outlandish for china.

I mean most families share about 500 square feet for a family of 4...

Again, my math could be wrong, im just relaying my understanding from someone whos been in china, overseeing the work in the factories and staying in their facilities for several weeks/months at a time.




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 1:56:02 AM)

According to Mercer's 2009 survey of living costs Shenzhen is now 22nd on the list of most expensive cities in the world for expats! Mercer's Cost of Living survey covers 143 cities across six continents and measures the comparative cost of over 200 items in each location, including housing, transport, food, clothing, household goods and entertainment.

11 dollars is 69.41 yuan a day

Although workers receive free housing and food, have medical benefits (the company pays 80% of expenses), and have 3 months of maternity leave, workers at the factory live in dormitories so crowded and noisy they cannot sleep properly, are forbidden from cooking or having visitors, are isolated because of the barren world outside the factory gates, and are not paid for all of their wages.

http://monthlyreview.org/2008/06/01/city-of-youth-shenzhen-china

Workers are charged up to one quarter of their wages on food, electricity, and water for eating and living in the factory dormitories, which house up to 16 people per room.

http://sacom.hk/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/report-high-tech-no-rights-may2008.pdf

Seems my head count was wrong.

So out of 70 yuan a day, they pay out almost 18 for food and board. 360 yuan a month, if they only work 5 days. 5,760 a month for a room with 16 people.




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 2:52:53 AM)

yeah, that is pretty much what i have read from people that have a better idea of what its like to live there. I read comments from one guy, he prefered to live in the dorm cuz it was cheaper than living outside the factory, that plus the travel time. The dorms have been changed also and now they are like Idea loft beds, the bed above with a desk and chair underneath. The Foxconn complex has shopping malls, bakeries, movie theaters, swimming pools and other activities. It is, apparently, a much better factory to work at than any of the other China factories. The employees are also able to further their education with foxconn subsidizing part of the cost for classes...

eta- Apparently foxconn employees actually get free housing and free food.




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 3:02:58 AM)

[8|]

I always love it when people dont read information. I mean, honestly, why waste peoples' time when you have someone on hide.. and that someone started the thread? Seems rather silly to me.

But, eh, I have seen sillier.

Anyway, to reiterate... the information given from the group that went in and actually investigated this company says...

quote:

Workers are charged up to one quarter of their wages on food, electricity, and water for eating and living in the factory dormitories, which house up to 16 people per room.


http://sacom.hk/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/report-high-tech-no-rights-may2008.pdf

Hardly free.




SpiritedRadiance -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 3:12:55 AM)

Even so tazzy... That's a lot cheaper then living here... With taxes and rent of the 10 to 11 an hour most make around here they are left with about 40 a day to pay all other bills besides rent... 18 dollars a day for food housing electric heat and so forth... Even with 16 to a room....
These are averages for my area... At 11 an hour after taxes.... Per day
At 24.1 for rent
1.6 for electric
2.3 for food
1.6 for trash
2.6 for heat
1.6 for water

Average person around here gets 39.5 dollars a day left for non essential expenses
Where they get 52 yaun....

Yes the conditions suck.... But they compared to us is never going to seem like a fair compromise....

My friend goes to China at least 5 times a year and adores his stays... He says the conditions are nothing like you describe here... It might be they clean up for us visitors or its one of the better factories but its no more then 4 to a room... Decent food....




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 3:25:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
Even so tazzy... That's a lot cheaper then living here... With taxes and rent of the 10 to 11 an hour most make around here they are left with about 40 a day to pay all other bills besides rent... 18 dollars a day for food housing electric heat and so forth... Even with 16 to a room....

I just love it when some posters dont read their own links about Foxconn [:D]

"Most workers eat at the plant cafeteria. They are allowed to go outside for meals, but rarely do so, in part because they would have to pay for their own food. The lowest rank workers earn only around 1,000 yuan ($120) per month, including overtime pay, approximately fifty cents per hour, not counting free food and housing"
http://monthlyreview.org/2008/06/01/city-of-youth-shenzhen-china




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 3:28:02 AM)

Thats a magazine... the other is a group that went into the plant itself. Try reading the links.




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 3:52:28 AM)

MISSION
Students and Scholars Against Corporate Misbehavior (SACOM) is a new nonprofit organization founded in Hong Kong in June 2005. SACOM originated from a students’ movement devoted to improving the labor conditions of cleaning workers and security guards under the outsourcing policy. The movement attained relative success and created an opportunity for students to engage in local and global labor issues. SACOM aims at bringing concerned students, scholars, labor activists, and consumers together to monitor corporate behavior and to advocate for workers’ rights.
We believe that the most effective means of monitoring is to collaborate closely with workers at the workplace level. We team up with labor NGOs to provide in-factory training to workers in South China. Through democratic elections, we support worker-based committees that can represent the voices of the majority of workers.


http://sacom.hk/mission

This is why I tend to believe their report.

I have no clue how far the rest of the money would go. I have seen sites say clothing and communication is expensive, taxis and bus about the same as the US, and that entertainment is a bit on the cheaper side.

From 2007 to the present, in addition to the normal 8-hour work shift, Yonghong workers
have been routinely required to do 3 hours of overtime work to fulfil rush orders. In any given week, they work 6 and even 7 days. Workers report that they suffer from extreme exhaustion. In a given month, they are forced to work as much as 100-200 hours of overtime, a serious violation of the law (the legal maximum allowable is 36 overtime hours per month).


During the peak season, Yonghong workers work overtime every night until very late. One young worker told us, “Our production manager just raised the daily production quota…it’s useless to report it to senior managers.” There seems to be no way for workers to meet the quota, even by working until 11:00 pm or midnight. Most of the workers start work as early as 7:30 am. In total, they toil day and night for 13 to 15 hours a day (sometimes meal breaks are cut short to only 30 minutes). In their words: “The next morning, we have to get up and work again…

Depending on which plant you look at on their report...

(3) Wages
Despite very long work hours, Yonghong workers are consistently underpaid. Our findings
show that probationary workers are even paid below the legal minimum.

According to Article 20 of the Labor Contract Law, “the wage amount of a worker during his or her probationary period shall not be less than the local minimum wage standard.” At Yonghong, however, during the three-month probationary period, workers receive a basic wage of only 700 yuan per month, not the regional legal minimum of 750 yuan. In other words, new employees are not effectively protected by implementation of the law.

(6) Dormitory and Canteen

The accommodation fee has been raised from 40 to 50 yuan per month. Water and electricity fees are added on to rent, depending on actual usage. In total, about 100 yuan per month is deducted from the average worker’s pay.

Each dorm room houses up to 12 workers who sleep in six double bunk beds

In terms of the price of food, the average worker spends between 120 and 180 yuan per
month on meals at the factory canteen. Workers in general comment that the food is of
extremely bad quality. They are also very concerned about food cleanliness and hygiene

(5) Dormitory and Canteen
In the factory canteen, workers pay for meals by using an electronic meal card. Prices range from around 3.5 to 4 yuan per meal. In total, the average worker spends 150 to 200 yuan per month for food in the canteen.

Each dorm room houses a maximum of 16 persons. Each worker’s paycheck is deducted 60
yuan per month for water and electricity.

(5) Dormitory and Canteen
Despite the recent upward adjustments of regular and overtime wages, Lite-On Xuji workers are required to pay a higher accommodation fee of 90 yuan per month, a 50% increase from the previous charge of 60 yuan.

Each dormitory room houses a maximum of 16 workers. They share the toilets, shower room, lockers and fans. Some workers cannot sleep at night due to the high volume of surrounding noise.

The factory canteen provides workers with 3 meals a day. Workers’ electronic meal cards
record the costs incurred (ranging from 2.5 to 5 yuan for breakfast, lunch, and dinner) and
the total amount is deducted from their wages every month.

(5) Dormitory and Canteen
There are nine collective dormitory buildings in close proximity to Tyco Electronics. Some are cleaner and newer than others. Each dormitory room houses 10 to 12 workers. The
dormitory compound includes basic facilities such as fans, bathrooms, showers, basketball courts, a mini library and a TV room. For the most part, the workers we interviewed found the dormitory conditions acceptable. Accommodation, water, and electricity are provided without charge to workers. But some workers express concern about excessive noise and overcrowded conditions. Although they have expressed their concerns, they received no answers from management.

In terms of food, one young female worker from Henan who eats in the factory canteen
reported:
“Our monthly wage is low. Each meal costs 2, 2.5, 3 or 5 yuan. I try not to
spend more than 350 yuan on food and snacks each month. I usually have a
steamed bun in the morning, fried noodles in the afternoon, and noodles or
rice at night. I seldom have fish.”
Workers noted that food quality is poor. Vegetables have too little oil, are sometimes only half cooked, and worms and sand have been found.


http://sacom.hk/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/report-high-tech-no-rights-may2008.pdf

The last one must be the one everyone refers too when discussing these plants.




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 3:58:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
Yes the conditions suck.... But they compared to us is never going to seem like a fair compromise....

My friend goes to China at least 5 times a year and adores his stays... He says the conditions are nothing like you describe here... It might be they clean up for us visitors or its one of the better factories but its no more then 4 to a room... Decent food....

There are jobs in N America that are very similar, there are jobs at remote camps that are just the basics (small bed, a desk, share the shower and toilet, etc), there are jobs in the military where the living conditions are cramped and living 3 bunks high.. Yet the people in this vid dont seem to mind living under those conditions.. and most of them arent paid a lot of money.. they are pretty poorly paid imo..
http://www.navy.com/inside/lifestyle/living-quarters.html




MrRodgers -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 4:06:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Your iPhone Was Built, In Part, By 13 Year-Olds Working 16 Hours A Day For 70 Cents An Hour

We love our iPhones and iPads.

We love the prices of our iPhones and iPads.

We love the super-high profit margins of Apple, Inc., the maker of our iPhones and iPads.

And that's why it's disconcerting to remember that the low prices of our iPhones and iPads — and the super-high profit margins of Apple — are only possible because our iPhones and iPads are made with labor practices that would be illegal in the United States.

And it's also disconcerting to realize that the folks who make our iPhones and iPads not only don't have iPhones and iPads (because they can't afford them), but, in some cases, have never even seen them.

This is a complex issue. But it's also an important one. And it's only going to get more important as the world's economies continue to become more intertwined.

(And the issue obviously concerns a lot more companies than Apple. Almost all of the major electronics manufacturers make their stuff in China. One difference with Apple, though, is the magnitude of the company's profit margin and profits. Apple could afford to pay its manufacturers more or hold them to higher standards and still be extremely competitive and profitable.)

Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-15/news/30628970_1_iphones-ipads-apple#ixzz1jffgC1Xh

Does this change how you feel about the iPhone?

Does it matter that children this young are building your products?

Does it affect you that they are making so little?

I've been trying to tell you cybersluts, in America, it's ALL about money. Should anybody ever be surprised by this ? The American businessman is concerned by that 70 cents/hr. It would be much better...if it was zero. [He] wants his slaves back and the ones that house and feed themselves...on nothing.

You haven't made it in China unless those making your shit...try to kill themselves. Haven't you heard, they are overtaken with joy at the company, housing, company food, company water, company bunks beds.

You see the Chinese studied American economic/industrial history and found a fountain of wealth (profit center) in slavery for blacks and paying whites almost nothing. So these capitalist/communist apparatchik knows that the Chinese peasantry can be brought in and housed having read how in the great 'land-of-opportunity' when the coal miners for example could work for 30 years and when retiring...owe the company money.

What a deal...are you rich yet ?




outhere69 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 6:16:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Add to that Coltan, a mineral mined in the Congo and funding the civil war there.

That's used in just about any electronic product with a bit of sophistication. Tantalum capacitors are in just about anything, and don't have good alternatives for many applications.

They also have a tendency to catch fire, but that just makes for more excitement.




kalikshama -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:06:00 AM)

quote:

Seems the cheap labor only saves approx 25%


Stewart thinks working people to death should come at least a 35% savings: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory




kalikshama -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:16:51 AM)

Foxconn resorts to stringing nets between buildings to stop suicides

Foxconn has been trying all sorts of tactics to improve the moral of its workers at the Chinese manufacturing plants. So far this year ten workers have jumped to their death from the Foxconn buildings.

The suicides are blamed on low morale and thought to possibly be linked to the death benefit packages Foxconn was paying to families of the deceased that amounted to about ten years pay for the workers. Foxconn has since stopped paying the death benefits.

[image]http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/foxconnnet-sg-374x499.jpg[/image]




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:18:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Seems the cheap labor only saves approx 25%


Stewart thinks working people to death should come at least a 35% savings: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory

yes, like what US corps get by using US prision slave labour... China has nothing on the US prison system when it comes to cheap labor..

"Prisoners earning 23 cents an hour in U.S. federal prisons are manufacturing high-tech electronic components"

"Prison labor — with no union protection, overtime pay, vacation days, pensions, benefits, health and safety protection, or Social Security withholding"

"The prison work is often dangerous, toxic and unprotected. At FCC Victorville, a federal prison located at an old U.S. airbase, prisoners clean, overhaul and reassemble tanks and military vehicles returned from combat and coated in toxic spent ammunition, depleted uranium dust and chemicals."

"Prisoners there worked covered in dust, without safety equipment, protective gear, air filtration or masks. The suit explained that the toxic dust caused severe damage to nervous and reproductive systems, lung damage, bone disease, kidney failure, blood clots, cancers, anxiety, headaches, fatigue, memory lapses, skin lesions, and circulatory and respiratory problems."

"One agency asks: “Are you experiencing high employee turnover? Worried about the costs of employee benefits? Unhappy with out-of-state or offshore suppliers? Getting hit by overseas competition? Having trouble motivating your workforce? Thinking about expansion space? Then Washington State Department of Corrections Private Sector Partnerships is for you.” "

"Major corporations profiting from the slave labor of prisoners include Motorola, Compaq, Honeywell, Microsoft, Boeing, Revlon, Chevron, TWA, Victoria’s Secret and Eddie Bauer."

"Systematic abuse, beatings, prolonged isolation and sensory deprivation, and lack of medical care make U.S. prison conditions among the worst in the world. Ironically, working under grueling conditions for pennies an hour is treated as a “perk” for good behavior. "

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25376




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:23:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Seems the cheap labor only saves approx 25%


Stewart thinks working people to death should come at least a 35% savings: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-16-2012/fear-factory


True, but he was using a pay rate of 31 cents an hour.




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:27:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Foxconn resorts to stringing nets between buildings to stop suicides

Foxconn has been trying all sorts of tactics to improve the moral of its workers at the Chinese manufacturing plants. So far this year ten workers have jumped to their death from the Foxconn buildings.

The suicides are blamed on low morale and thought to possibly be linked to the death benefit packages Foxconn was paying to families of the deceased that amounted to about ten years pay for the workers. Foxconn has since stopped paying the death benefits.


"Journalists reporting an epedemic of suicides at the electronics manufacturer Foxconn have badly misrepresented the facts…"

"Foxconn’s suicide epidemic is actually lower than China’s national average of suicides."

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/foremski/media-gets-its-facts-wrong-working-at-foxconn-significantly-cuts-suicide-risk/1356

"Foxconn suicide rate is lower than in the US"
"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/steve-jobs/7796546/Foxconn-suicide-rate-is-lower-than-in-the-US-says-Apples-Steve-Jobs.html




kalikshama -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:34:10 AM)

quote:

there are jobs in the military where the living conditions are cramped and living 3 bunks high.. Yet the people in this vid dont seem to mind living under those conditions.. and most of them arent paid a lot of money.. they are pretty poorly paid imo.. http://www.navy.com/inside/lifestyle/living-quarters.html


While the military initially does not pay enough to support a one income/several dependents family, one will soon obtain enough rank to afford base housing or a larger housing allowance. Advancement to a comfortable rank is almost inevitable. The same cannot be said of Wal-Mart, or Foxconn.

My husband and I were both military and after less than a year of service were living in a two bedroom / two bath house complete with a tatami room with shoji doors, papaya and banana trees, a few blocks from the ocean.

Of course, this was the Air Force and we were in Okinawa. Our combined housing and COLA allowances allowed us to live VERY well.

[image]http://contemporaryclosetdoors.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/shoji-doors.jpg[/image]




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