RE: iPhones and child labor (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:37:20 AM)

quote:

"Foxconn’s suicide epidemic is actually lower than China’s national average of suicides."


Because, of course, we all know that hellish working conditions actually increase happiness and well-being, resulting in fewer suicides.




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:40:56 AM)

And aint this interesting..

"Berkshire Unit Finds It Broke Canada Trade Laws Over Prison Labor ."

"pointed to the use of prison labor by Shaw and other U.S. rivals. He noted that U.S. law wouldn't allow foreign companies to ship products made with prison labor into the U.S. but that U.S. producers themselves used prison labor. "We should not apply one standard to China and another to the U.S.," he said."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203436904577155042652527240.html

Berkshire Unit Finds It Broke Canada Trade Laws Over Prison Labor .
JANUARY 12, 2012.
By JAMES R. HAGERTY
Shaw Industries Group Inc., a carpet and wood-flooring maker owned by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc., has quietly acknowledged that it broke Canadian trade laws by exporting hardwood flooring to Canada that was partly made by prison inmates.

Shaw notified customers in Canada last week that it had "recently learned that our importing into Canada of goods that are manufactured utilizing prison labor is prohibited by Canadian law," according to a copy of the letter reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.

The Canadian ban on imports made by prisoners isn't unusual. Many countries try to avoid encouraging what some consider to be akin to slave labor. The U.S. also bars such imports.

Shaw, based in Dalton, Ga., said it had halted the shipments and notified Canada's Border Services Agency. A spokesman for that agency declined comment, citing "privacy and operational confidentiality." In a statement, Shaw said it "is not anticipating any penalties or fines."

Shaw told Canadian customers it would try to resume shipments soon with products that weren't made using prison labor.

"This came as a big surprise to us," said Vince Scott, a flooring buyer at Brampton Hardwood Floors, in Brampton, Ontario.

Shaw, whose flooring brands include Anderson, had been shipping the products that involved prison labor to Canada for years and wasn't aware of the country's prohibition until a journalist asked about it late last year, said Scott Sandlin, a Shaw vice president. He added that the affected products are "a small percentage" of overall Shaw wood-flooring sales.

Prisoners in the U.S. are used by Shaw and other flooring makers for such tasks as scraping wood to create what Shaw calls a "distressed" or "time-worn" look. The work is part of a longstanding federal program that helps rehabilitate prisoners and provides money for restitution to crime victims, Shaw said. Prisons around the country also produce a broad array of other items, including hockey sticks, boats and dentures, according to the National Correction Industries Association.

Shaw has frequently accused Chinese rivals of violating U.S. trade laws by dumping wood flooring on the American market at less than fair value. Last year, along with other U.S. flooring makers, it persuaded the U.S. government to impose duties on imports of Chinese-made "multilayered" wood flooring, made from veneers. The U.S. companies charged that the Chinese flooring was subsidized by Beijing and dumped on the U.S. market at less than fair value.

During a hearing on the trade dispute last October in Washington, Wu Shengfu, director of marketing for the China National Forest Products Industry Association, pointed to the use of prison labor by Shaw and other U.S. rivals. He noted that U.S. law wouldn't allow foreign companies to ship products made with prison labor into the U.S. but that U.S. producers themselves used prison labor. "We should not apply one standard to China and another to the U.S.," he said.

Jeffrey S. Levin, a lawyer representing the U.S. flooring makers, retorted at the hearing that Mr. Wu's comment was "a cheap shot." He said the U.S. program involved "prevailing" wages and wasn't akin to "slave labor."

Shaw's Mr. Sandlin said he saw no similarity between his company's violation of Canadian import law and dumping by Chinese makers of flooring.

Most prison work programs make such items as license plates or furniture for use by government agencies. Shaw's use of inmate labor falls under the federal Prison Industry Enhancement, or PIE, program, which sets standards for prison operations making goods for sale in interstate commerce.

Shaw said in a Q&A about prison labor that the program was a "great program for the state and for Anderson's overall commitment to social responsibility," and allowed Anderson to "get work done like hand scraping which is physically demanding, with more skill than we can get it done by civilians who tend to turn over when they find other work." The company also noted that it saved "on some benefits, such as vacations."





Moonhead -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:46:19 AM)

I think tj's comparison is utter nonsense, myself. As you say, military personnel don't necessarily stay in cramped conditions, and while they are doing that, there's that whole esprit de corps thing going on. However many excuses the late Steve Jobs made for the conditions Foxconn's treatment of its workforce, I doubt that they felt that a few privations were no big deal as they were helping to keep their country safe...




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:50:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
While the military initially does not pay enough to support a one income/several dependents family, one will soon obtain enough rank to afford base housing or a larger housing allowance. Advancement to a comfortable rank is almost inevitable. The same cannot be said of Wal-Mart, or Foxconn.

My husband and I were both military and after less than a year of service were living in a two bedroom / two bath house complete with a tatami room with shoji doors, papaya and banana trees, a few blocks from the ocean.

Of course, this was the Air Force and we were in Okinawa. Our combined housing and COLA allowances allowed us to live VERY well.

I wouldnt know how fast a person can move up and how many are allowed to.. what i do know is that its been posted here that there have been military families forced to use food stamps to make ends meet..




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 9:53:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I think tj's comparison is utter nonsense, myself. As you say, military personnel don't necessarily stay in cramped conditions, and while they are doing that, there's that whole esprit de corps thing going on. However many excuses the late Steve Jobs made for the conditions Foxconn's treatment of its workforce, I doubt that they felt that a few privations were no big deal as they were helping to keep their country safe...

that was just one example of people living in stacked bunks here in the US.. I was just pointing out that the same thing happens here too.. The prison slave labor system is a better example, cramped, dangerous, slave wages.




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 10:16:45 AM)

quote:

The prison slave labor system is a better example, cramped, dangerous, slave wages.


An so now we are going to compare law abiding citizens with prison labor.

South Carolina

According to the state Department of Corrections, in one program, prisoners making desks and other office equipment for public agencies can make “a wage of up to 35 cents an hour.” In another program, the state negotiates with private customers, and prisoners earn from 35 cents to $1.80 an hour. And in the Prison Industry Enterprise Program, inmates produce goods for private employers ranging from apparel to cable wires. They are supposed to be paid the “prevailing wage,” and to not compete with private workers. They are allegedly paid from $5.15 to $10 per hour, but must pay for their “room and board,” and have up to 20 percent of their wages confiscated to repay their victims.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/jackson/10049332-452/south-carolina-shows-how-far-we-have-to-go.html

Keep in mind, these are adults who knew the consequences of their actions. I have issues with prison labor, but it has nothing to do with what they are paid.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 10:19:37 AM)

Great, so we've established that Chinese children who have committed no crimes work in poorer working conditions than than adult prisoners in the U.S. And can someone explain to me why this should make any of us feel better about buying Chinese products?




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 10:25:26 AM)

It doesnt, at least for me.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 10:36:45 AM)

Yes, tazzy, I agree - nothing I've read here changes my mind.

For those who are citing people who have visited Chinese factories, I just want to point out that the true slave type factories that operate there are NOT a place that Chinese officials would ever allow people from outside of China to visit. Ever. The Chinese are very good at propaganda. And the people are terrified, truly, to say anything to anyone from outside of China because of the repercussion to them and their families. It is not a free country. Anyone who thinks that any information we have from there about "how good things are" can be trusted is under a misperception.

For an example of how "open" the Chinese are, here is how the Chinese handle Tibet:

Since the 2008 protests the situation in Tibet has changed dramatically:

Restrictions on travel to many parts of Tibet for both journalists and tourists remain in place therefore it is almost impossible to report about the situation in Tibet.
Freedom of movement is restricted and communication services can be curtailed
A number of Tibetans are serving prison sentences for passing information about the situation in Tibet, creating a culture of fear and self-censorship.
There is a heavy military presence on the streets of many Tibetan towns. There are also roadblocks, security cameras and in central Lhasa soldiers can be seen with guns on roof tops.
Hundreds of plainclothes police and informers watch the crowds.
In 2011 there has been a wave of self-immolations by Tibetans. By the beginning of November 11 monks and nuns had set fire to themselves and at least six died. They all seem to have taken this desperate action to draw attention to the severe restrictions imposed by the Chinese authorities on their freedom to practise their religion.

I have friends who have visited Tibet and the above is absolutely accurate. The rest of China is absolutely NO different. They completely control what information gets out. I doubt anyone from outside of China has actually seen the true child slave factories.




kalikshama -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 11:00:42 AM)

quote:

I wouldnt know how fast a person can move up and how many are allowed to.. what i do know is that its been posted here that there have been military families forced to use food stamps to make ends meet..


The military is just one of many careers that initially cannot well support a spouse who doesn't work plus children. However, my experience was that these sorts of families stopped struggling to make ends meet once they became eligible for on base housing after a few years. But then they qualify for food stamps because base housing is not calculated as income:

http://www.military.com/news/article/more-troops-are-relying-on-food-stamps.html

“That some military members continue to qualify for food stamps is primarily a result of the Department of Agriculture excluding the value of government-provided housing as income in determining eligibility for the food stamp program. The study indicated that the majority of military food stamp recipients lived on base,” Eileen M. Lainez said in an e-mail to Military.com.

“The fact that some enlisted members and even a few officers received food stamps was more a result of larger household sizes and living in government quarters than an indicator of inadequate military compensation.”







tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 11:56:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
The military is just one of many careers that initially cannot well support a spouse who doesn't work plus children. However, my experience was that these sorts of families stopped struggling to make ends meet once they became eligible for on base housing after a few years. But then they qualify for food stamps because base housing is not calculated as income:

http://www.military.com/news/article/more-troops-are-relying-on-food-stamps.html

“That some military members continue to qualify for food stamps is primarily a result of the Department of Agriculture excluding the value of government-provided housing as income in determining eligibility for the food stamp program. The study indicated that the majority of military food stamp recipients lived on base,” Eileen M. Lainez said in an e-mail to Military.com.

“The fact that some enlisted members and even a few officers received food stamps was more a result of larger household sizes and living in government quarters than an indicator of inadequate military compensation.”

so cuz they stop struggling after a few years, that justifies it? considering that those in the military put their lives on the line every day? considering how vets are treated after? hmmm okkkkkkkkk [8|]




tj444 -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:09:14 PM)

Foxconn has nothing to do with tibet... Foxconn is one if not the best company in China, they get 8000 applications for employment every day, its ironic that people focus on them cuz of Apple but if ya'll actually cared about those workers in China you would be posting about the small factories that abuse their workers, dont provide housing or food or subsidized medical or the things that Foxconn does provide.. People wanna bitch about Apple and they dont mind that their gym shoes or their lingerie are made by workers in considerably worse conditions, forced to sleep on the factory floor or literally out on the street cuz they cant afford housing, etc etc..

And of course, the US doesnt want to clean up its own backyard and stop with the prison slave labor programs.. You may fool yourselves but you dont fool the rest of the world.. [8|]




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:12:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance
Yes the conditions suck.... But they compared to us is never going to seem like a fair compromise....

My friend goes to China at least 5 times a year and adores his stays... He says the conditions are nothing like you describe here... It might be they clean up for us visitors or its one of the better factories but its no more then 4 to a room... Decent food....

There are jobs in N America that are very similar, there are jobs at remote camps that are just the basics (small bed, a desk, share the shower and toilet, etc), there are jobs in the military where the living conditions are cramped and living 3 bunks high.. Yet the people in this vid dont seem to mind living under those conditions.. and most of them arent paid a lot of money.. they are pretty poorly paid imo..
http://www.navy.com/inside/lifestyle/living-quarters.html


If all they get was their paycheck, I would agree.

http://www.navycs.com/military-pay.html

When it comes to financial benefits, the Navy amounts to much more than a competitive paycheck. Like significant tax incentives. Retirement income. And, of course, comprehensive health-care coverage. When you add it all up, the entire package is tough to beat – from nearly every angle.

http://www.navy.com/joining/benefits/pay/

http://www.militarypay.org/us_navy/

http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/career/PayAndBenefits/Pages/default2.aspx




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:13:47 PM)

quote:

And of course, the US doesnt want to clean up its own backyard and stop with the prison slave labor programs.. You may fool yourselves but you dont fool the rest of the world..


Already addressed. [8|]




Moonhead -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:27:37 PM)

Do you know how Chinese unionisation works?




fucktoyprincess -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:29:35 PM)

My point about Tibet, because I am very familiar with what goes on there, is that it is indicative of how forthright the Chinese are about information (i.e., not), and to what lengths they will go to protect what information comes out of the country (imprison those who do not comply). That is all I was using Tibet to demonstrate. As you are well aware, China currently controls Tibet. The military presence in Tibet is Chinese.




xanzabelle -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:35:28 PM)

Don't care! I love my IPHONE & IPAD. Keep up the good work.




tazzygirl -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:37:50 PM)

quote:

Don't care!


Obviously.




xanzabelle -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:44:59 PM)

Word.




Moonhead -> RE: iPhones and child labor (1/17/2012 12:45:20 PM)

If we're talking about Apple specifically, rather than outsourcing manufacturing to Chinese subcontractors who suck at labour relations in general, it's worth remembering that they're a company with a long history of using sweatshop labour. A lot of the manufacturing of the Apple II was farmed out to illegals in dodgy workshops, after all.




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