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Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 4:51:00 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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Why is it that fundamentalists of almost every sect insist upon marginalizing and degrading women? 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/world/middleeast/israel-faces-crisis-over-role-of-ultra-orthodox-in-society.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=ig

In Israel, a Clash Between the Secular and Ultra-Orthodox In the three months since the Israeli Health Ministry awarded a prize to a pediatrics professor for her book on hereditary diseases common to Jews, her experience at the awards ceremony has become a rallying cry. . The professor, Channa Maayan, knew that the acting health minister, who is ultra-Orthodox, and other religious people would be in attendance.  So she wore a long-sleeve top and a long skirt. But that was hardly enough. Not only did Dr. Maayan and her husband have to sit separately, as men and women were segregated at the event, but she was instructed that a male colleague would have to accept the award for her because women were not permitted on stage. Though shocked that this was happening at a government ceremony, Dr. Maayan bit her tongue. But others have not, and her story is entering the pantheon of secular anger building as a battle rages in Israel for control of the public space between the strictly religious and everyone else. At a time when there is no progress on the Palestinian dispute, Israelis are turning inward and discovering that an issue they had neglected — the place of the ultra-Orthodox Jews — has erupted into a crisis. And it is centered on women.


_____________________________

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 5:22:14 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Women already control all the pussy. They don't want them controlling half the money as well.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 5:23:04 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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Whatever



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 5:49:38 PM   
kalikshama


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Fundamentalism - A Very Short Introduction

...Several recent studies suggest that sex or, more specifically, the
control of female sexuality looms large in the language employed by
fundamentalists.

The wave of animalism which is sweeping over the world
today, and the degradation of the modern dance, the sensualism
of the modern theatre, the glorification of the flesh in
modern styles, and the sex suggestion of modern literature,
the substitution of dogs for babies, the appalling divorce evil,
have all come about because of this degrading philosophy of
animalism which evolution is spreading over the earth.

(J. R. Straton, Searchlight, 7/12, February 1924)

In the 1920s, American fundamentalists like John R. Straton
explicitly linked the public expression of female sexuality to the
corrosive effects of Darwinism, or what he preferred to call,
polemically, ‘animalism’.

Revolutionary Islamist groups like the Fedayan-i Islam denounce
unveiled women in similar, if more dramatic, language: ‘Flames of
passion rise from the naked bodies of immoral women and burn
humanity to ashes’, causing young men to neglect their work. More
than half the provisions of a 1981 law introduced in the Islamic
Republic to codify Koranic prescriptions – 107 out of 195 articles –
were concerned with sexual activities, ranging from the prosecution
of adultery and homosexuality to preventing unrelated persons of
the same sex lying naked under a blanket.

Reisebrodt sees the obsessive concern with sexuality common to
American and Iranian fundamentalisms as a reaction to broader
anxieties resulting from rural displacement and economic change.
Fundamentalism, in his view, is a protest against the assault on
patriarchal principles in the family, economy, and politics. The
symptoms of patriarchal decline, he argues, manifest themselves
primarily in the spheres of the family and sexual morality; but the
underlying causes may lie in those very processes the sociologist
Max Weber regarded as integral to modernity: the expansion of
large-scale ‘rationalized’ operations, entailing formalized and
codified relationships, at the expense of small businesses based on
intimate paternalistic relations between employers and employees.
In resisting such aspects of what Weber famously called ‘the
disenchantment of the world’, fundamentalisms may appear to be
anti-modern. But reality forces them to absorb many of modernity’s
salient features.

According to Riesebrodt, what fundamentalists cannot prevent in
the way of structural transformation they attempt to impose
symbolically. A gender-based division of labour is found in nearly all
pre-modern societies. Under today’s conditions it can no longer be
sustained by traditional domestic arrangements, since in most
modern societies women are required in the workforce. Instead,
segregation is achieved by symbolic means such as sartorial coding
– long hair and skirts for American women, with ‘Christian’ haircuts
(short back and sides) for their menfolk; the veil in its various forms
for Muslim women and the beard, a mark of sex and piety, for
Muslim men. These forms of public religiosity may mask, but do not
necessarily reverse or even delay, the processes of secularization.

Family values are fundamental to religious thought and behaviour
in nearly all traditions. At times when social or political changes
affect the family, religions are liable to react as though they are
being undermined at their very foundations. However, given the
varied social worlds in which fundamentalists actually operate, the
results are far from being uniform. Nor are they necessarily
reactionary or conservative.

In Latin America, where men often abandon their children, the
patriarchal ideology promoted by evangelical churches encourages
them to be more responsible fathers. Women, the voiceless group
in the region, find in evangelical and Pentecostal communities the
space and opportunity to exercise their gifts, while their husbands
are encouraged to encounter a relational and affective part of
themselves denied by the traditional ‘macho’ culture. Similarly,
Japanese New Religions, some of which were founded by female
prophets, theoretically reinforce ideals of male dominance while
actually allowing women more active and participatory roles than
traditional Buddhism and Shinto. In Sri Lanka, a women’s
Buddhist movement, the dasa-sil-mata, has campaigned to restore
a long-defunct order of Buddhist nuns, against resistance from
several male-dominated Buddhist organizations. Even in Iran,
where many female workers were purged after the 1979
revolution, the situation is not unambiguous, as the revolution has
encouraged the emergence of middle-class feminists determined
to reinterpret Islam as empowering them rather than restricting
their activities.

In the Islamic world particularly, the issue has been confused by the
symbolism of the veil and its ambiguities. In the 20th century,
women’s emancipation in Egypt, Iran, and other Muslim countries
was symbolized by the abandoning of the veil by upper-class women
under the influence of Western culture, or in some cases its
abolition by reforming autocrats. Abolished by decree by unpopular
governments, the veil could easily be transformed into an emblem
of cultural or political resistance. In Algeria, veiled Muslim women
played an active part in the struggle for independence against
France. In Egypt, observers have noted that the fundamentalist
ideology which insists on veiling for women may actually reflect an
emancipation from family bonds, rather than an endorsement of
them. Young women who wear the hijab (veil or religious dress) no
longer seek their parents’ permission to visit mosques or attend
religious meetings. Allah replaces the father as the ultimate
authority for individuals, while stressing their obligations to the
wider community.

At the same time, real horror stories abound. A recent example has
been the fate of women in Afghanistan, a landlocked, mountainous
country where patriarchal tribal customs have retained their hold
for much longer than elsewhere. Among the Ghizlai, the women are
secluded from non-mahrams —men other than fathers or brothers
to whom they could be married. Among the Pushtuns, a bride who
does not bleed on her wedding night may be killed by her father or
brothers. ‘Honour killings’ for alleged sexual misconduct by women
are far from being limited to mountainous, tribal regions: they
occur in many other parts of the world, and though Jordan, Egypt,
Syria, and Iraq furnish numerous examples, honour killings are far
from being confined to Muslim societies. The culture of ‘honour and
shame’, in which masculine honour and identity are predicated on
female virtue, was until recently just as prevalent in Catholic Spain
and Sicily, and the Orthodox Balkans, as it in Muslim lands.

...

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 5:59:16 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Maybe I should rephrase my earlier addmittedly kind of flip answer.

Women already do all the reproduction. This is a mystery to fundamentalists. They also have the beloved female genetalia which causes so much pleasure for the males of the fundies.
Long ago, men realized that their reproductive capabilities which men don't have and the pleasure that men can recieve from their bodies makes women REALLY fucking important.

If women were to also become a socioeconomic force, then men would become marginalized at best and fucking useless (until the trash needs to be taken out or something needs to be fixed or to kill a crawly bug) at worst.

Enter these useless things called Shamans, Priests or whatever. These guys got together and decided that this marginalization of those with hangy-down parts could NOT be allowed. The obvious solution was to tell the people that whatever big omnipotent dude in the sky they happened to worship had told them that women were second class citizens and thus should be socially marginalized.

The people actually bought into that buncha crap and the rest is history.

ETA. is that better iass?

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 6:22:41 PM   
kalikshama


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Witches, Midwives, and Nurses
A History of Women Healers


by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English

...But three central accusations emerge repeatedly in the history of witchcraft throughout northern Europe:

First, witches are accused of every conceivable sexual crime against men. Quite simply, they are "accused" of female sexuality.

Second, they are accused of being organized.

Third, they are accused of having magical powers affecting health—of harming, but also of healing. They were often charged specifically with possessing medical and obstetrical skills.

First, consider the charge of sexual crimes. The medieval Catholic Church elevated sexism to a point of principle: The Malleus declares, "When a woman thinks alone, she thinks evil."

...The Church associated women with sex, and all pleasure in sex was condemned, because it could only come from the devil. Witches were supposed to have gotten pleasure from copulation with the devil (despite the icy-cold organ he was reputed to possess) and they in turn infected men. Lust in either man or wife, then, was blamed on the female. On the other hand, witches were accused of making men impotent and of causing their penises to disappear. As for female sexuality, witches were accused, in effect, of giving contraceptive aid and of performing abortions:

...In the eyes of the Church, all the witches' power was ultimately derived from her sexuality. Her career began with sexual intercourse with the devil. Each witch was confirmed at a general meeting (the witches' Sabbath) at which the devil presided, often in the form of a goat, and had intercourse with the neophytes. In return for her powers, the witch promised to serve him faithfully. (In the imagination of the Church even evil could only be thought of as ultimately male-directed!) As the Malleus makes clear, the devil almost always acts through the female, just as he did in Eden:

...We come now to the most fantastic accusation of all: The witch is accused not only of murdering and poisoning, sex crimes and conspiracy—but of helping and healing.

...Witch-healers were often the only general medical practitioners for a people who had no doctors and no hospitals and who were bitterly afflicted with poverty and disease. In particular, the association of the witch and the midwife was strong: "No one does more harm to the Catholic Church than midwives," wrote witch-hunters Kramer and Sprenger.

...When faced with the misery of the poor, the Church turned to the dogma that experience in this world is fleeting and unimportant. But there was a double standard at work, for the Church was not against medical care for the upper class. Kings and nobles had their court physicians who were men, sometimes even priests. The real issue was control: Male upper class healing under the auspices of the Church was acceptable, female healing as part of a peasant subculture was not.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 6:45:48 PM   
kalikshama


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BAD thread made me lose my happy thoughts

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 6:47:02 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Women already do all the reproduction. This is a mystery to fundamentalists. They also have the beloved female genetalia which causes so much pleasure for the males of the fundies.
Long ago, men realized that their reproductive capabilities which men don't have and the pleasure that men can recieve from their bodies makes women REALLY fucking important.

It is a very controversial topic but I sort of agree with Hill although I see it more in the sense of desire, and less about reproduction. Arguably the primary issue that defines relations between men and women is an inequality of desire, where men desire women more actively than women desire men, all else being equal. This often leads to an odd sort of situation where men have to often go out of their way to impress women, and there can be a sort of tribute system in operation even today where women can be paid more than men. Its usually not too bad or overt but it definitely points to where the power often is where it comes to sex. It seems to be a societal extension of females in nature performing the Darwinian role of sexual-selection. Its generalising of course but perhaps that is part of the problem for the religious: the perception that sex has a lot of power which leads to a debasing behaviour, and leads men/women away from what might be regarded as their better more exalted selves*. I sometimes hear that sort of stance echoed in the views of devoutly religious folks. It would explain why women in highly religious societies are usually expected to dress modestly. I dont agree with that stance but it may help explain what motivates such intense religious repression. * There are exceptions of course, where primitive and/or some paganistic societies are not strict or even celebrate female sexuality.

BTW the article slightly misleads at least initially by suggesting the Ultra-Orthodox represent Jewish belief in Israel. The (non-ultra) Orthodox are much common as is the case in other nations but aren't remotely as extreme and dont exclude themselves from society. Segregation on buses is pretty sick. They have taken tolerance of the Ultra's too far there.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 1/16/2012 7:18:12 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 7:45:44 PM   
tweakabelle


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One explanation would be:
At a psychic level, fundamentalism is often seen as a means employed by the insecure, the ignorant and fearful to impose a definite order on a potentially chaotic world. The insecure are threatened by the diversity and constant change of the world. They respond by rigorously self-editing their versions of reality so that only their particular belief system remains intact. This response necessitates the destruction of any competing (more powerful or fuller) explanations.

Misogyny operates in precisely the same manner, originating in sexual insecurities. Misogynists tend to feel threatened by the 'mysteries' of female sexualities, and its prominent role in reproduction. Sexually mature people tend to enjoy and celebrate such sexualities, the sexually insecure need to control and repress them.

If you like, fundamentalist belief systems are an 'ideological/intellectual' articulation of the neuroses of the insecure, misogyny is an articulation of sexual insecurities/neuroses of insecure (predominately, but not exclusively) males.

Also worthy of consideration is the political need of patriarchal culture to (a)control reproduction and its fear of female fertility, the critical role that women alone have in reproduction and (b) maintain political control generally.

All of these forces intersect on and around womens' bodies and sexualities. Uniting these factors offers one explanation of why fundamentalist belief systems invariably involve misogyny.* A more orthodox Freudian analysis might assert that both fundamentalism and misogyny are differing articulations of the same force - libidinal insecurities.


* Please note this is a very brief generalised description of some complex processes and it suffers accordingly. This format is unsuitable for a complete explanation. So please focus on the general sense of the argument advanced rather than nit picking details.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/16/2012 7:49:26 PM >


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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 7:59:31 PM   
kalikshama


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I was hoping you'd come along :)

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 8:10:57 PM   
Kirata


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Let's see if I have this straight...

Men and women are required to be seated separately, and women are not permitted on the stage, at a government ceremony to present an award by the Israeli Health Ministry.

So much for secular democracy, eh?

K.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 8:43:22 PM   
xssve


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http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/10/01/5214051-undesired-in-india-boys-are-prized-over-girls-with-violent-results

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 8:45:22 PM   
xssve


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Double post.

< Message edited by xssve -- 1/16/2012 8:53:05 PM >

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 9:34:53 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Basically, it's all coming back to My initial (admittedly snarky) post.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 9:53:19 PM   
Epytropos


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Couldn't have said it better myself. Religion is inherently conservative, inherently the process of keeping things static. When gender rolls were defined a certain way, there was no need for conflict, but once they became more fluid it became another change to be combated.

_____________________________

They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 9:57:32 PM   
Musicmystery


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Well, it all goes back to the origins of the words...women and fun da men ta list. The men get to list the fun they will have with the women.

Yeah, OK. Eckhart Tolle has an interesting take on this, regarding the dawn of civilization and using the mind's focus on ego to overcome nature, and that meant an imbalance between the masculine and feminine energies. I dunno.

Susan Sontag points out that the early church split the kingdom of heaven from earthy concerns, and when Descartes split the mind and the body, this translated to a corresponding male/female split. Perhaps.

Fundamentalism, though, is above all a longing for the simplistic. Nuance is not merely lost upon it, but an actual enemy to that simple vision. In the man/woman instance, it defines the dynamic as just that simple. That's its appeal--even if the simplicity is a lie.

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 10:08:28 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/10/01/5214051-undesired-in-india-boys-are-prized-over-girls-with-violent-results


This is so overwhelmingly depressing.

ETA: I knew about the practices but to see the degree to which a girl, child, woman is undervalued and despised is unfathomable.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 1/16/2012 10:10:33 PM >

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/16/2012 10:23:16 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Yeah, OK. Eckhart Tolle has an interesting take on this, regarding the dawn of civilization and using the mind's focus on ego to overcome nature, and that meant an imbalance between the masculine and feminine energies. I dunno.

Susan Sontag points out that the early church split the kingdom of heaven from earthy concerns, and when Descartes split the mind and the body, this translated to a corresponding male/female split. Perhaps.

Interesting idea by Tolle, could be some truth to it as quite a number of primitive societies seemed to afford more significance for the role of women.

I think Sontag is wrong though because Descartes came along too late in the day (early 17th Century) for her theory to work, if that was the intended point. It might be better to have latched on to Plato as his dualistic cosmology involved a perfect world of concepts of which the physical world is an imperfect copy. Neo-Platonism went on to be the basic philosophical wiring of Christianity. It seems that fundamentalists seek a simple well ordered life where everyone has their role. Unfortunately that role is very limited for some!

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 1/16/2012 10:35:06 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/17/2012 5:09:59 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Let's see if I have this straight...

Men and women are required to be seated separately, and women are not permitted on the stage, at a government ceremony to present an award by the Israeli Health Ministry.

So much for secular democracy, eh?

K.


Yep.
It's particularly amusing having that take place in the country that's continually excused its loathsome policy on Palestine on the grounds that it's a lone and besieged democracy surrounded by theocratic psychopaths, isn't it?
(Though not, obviously, if you're a female Israeli...)

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Women and fundamentalist religions - 1/17/2012 6:26:13 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion."


Ironic signature line in a misogyny thread. I'll add the next sentence from the quote:

quote:

This she can become only when she has the same rights as he and is his equal in education and work.


I wonder how Severin meant it - that it was inevitable that women would eventually achieve equality?

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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