RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 5:57:54 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But how one would handle such an issue goes directly to leadership quality, as well as diplomacy.

You're seriously considering diplomacy an issue in a discussion about Gringrich's fitness for the presidency?

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 7:25:34 AM

fucktoyprincess

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Some other thoughts I want to add:

I hire many professionals in the course of my existence. It would never occur to me to ever ask any of them if they have committed adultery, because I do not think it has anything to do with their fitness to do their job professionally. I have people managing my money, for example. I don't expect an accountant or financial advisor to be any more likely to cheat me out of my money simply because they and their spouse have had marital difficulties that either start or end with adultery. And again, witness Bernie Madoff, who was faithful to his wife. Well, let's just say I'm really thankful I didn't have any of my money with him. His being faithful to his wife obviously had nothing to do with his willingness or ability to screw countless other people over.

In the same way, I have never asked (and would never ask), any of my doctors if they were faithful in their marriages. Again, I do not see how the issue of how they handle their personal relationship has any bearing on how they handle my well-being as their patient. Just because a doctor is having an affair, and indifferent on a certain dimension towards their spouse, does not make them indifferent to me in their role as doctor. I only care if my doctor is good. I really don't care how they conduct their personal lives. If I ever need an oncologist or a surgeon - I will research and find the best one possible based on their professional results. I could care less whether they have been faithful to their spouse or not. I am paying for results in my life - not for fidelity to their spouse.

There are countless CEOs and small business managers who manage and lead employees. Again, do any of us care if they've had an adulterous relationship or not. For those of you who work in an institutional setting - think of the best manager you've ever had. Would it matter to you if they were an adulterer? And if you really think they would never do such a thing, think again. It isn't always obvious who does.

Do I care if the owner of the restaurant down the block is having an affair? Or will I still spend my money there because I know he runs a clean, well-managed restaurant with pleasant staff and above-average food for the price? (Which he does, by the way, and I adore him.)

I just don't think adultery has anything to do with how people conduct themselves professionally. And being a politician is a profession. If I don't care if the person who manages my money or my doctor or my manager has committed adultery or not, then why do I care about a politician?

I think Americans would be wise to follow their European counterparts and start caring less about this issue. If France can have someone like Mitterand who had a long term mistress and an entire second family, but still lead the country effectively and not be abused in the media, then surely we can too. No where in the world has it been shown that a politician who is an adulterer makes a poor leader. That is not the basis for determining who is capable of helping govern the country.

Is there something unique about America in this century that makes adultery indicative of fitness for office? Because it isn't indicative anywhere else in the world, nor has it been at any time in history either here or elsewhere.

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 1/20/2012 7:27:45 AM >

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 7:38:14 AM

kdsub

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As tazzy says people fall into and out of love…that is if we really knew what love is…I sure don‘t.. To me it depends on how they handle the infidelity. If they are honest and upfront with the family and tell the media it is none of their business and mean it I am OK with it.

It does not take a moral man or woman to be a good politician as we have found out , at least here in the US. But Things have changed and it is almost impossible to hide from the electronic sensationalistic media today. I would rather my elected leader be faithful, at least while in office, only because unfaithfulness to family could be used as blackmail or pressure politically.

I used the word moral above and I’m not even sure that is the correct term. Weakness may be a better one…Many moral people have fallen to temptation and it destroys them as well as people around them.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/20/2012 7:39:24 AM >

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:09:02 AM

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The issue here is more hypocrisy than moral strength or weakness, surely?

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:20:28 AM

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quote:

In the same way, I have never asked (and would never ask), any of my doctors if they were faithful in their marriages.

When was the last time your Doctor had the ability to make laws affecting your life. That is what politicians do.

Say one thing... do another. How do you trust someone like that?

Im not speaking of the lies they tell their wives.

Im talking about the lies they tell their constituents.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:23:36 AM

Lucylastic

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Personally when they want to legislate morality for americans
they should be able to at least have some to begin with.

yeah its the double standard/hypocrisy.
A world possessed by celebrity/political news.. is one thing, look at the uproar over jesse james, or kim kardasian(no I do not follow either of them).
WE vote for representatives to govern, why are we not allowed to be judgemental on their stances and actions when they are holding us to a different standard
?

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:25:15 AM

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I am not talking about any particular politician just to make that clear. Hypocrisy is not the issue.

It is simply can a man or woman that commits adultery be trusted in public office. It would make no difference if they were hypocritical or not.

I’m sure most people who commit adultery have no intention of doing so at the time of their marriage. They would have a different way of looking at marriage until life changes for them.

Folks here may be talking about Gingrich...I'm not. I am trying to answer the OP's question straight forward...It has merit even if a possible disguised political statement.

Butch

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:26:43 AM

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I don't think adultery makes one unfit for office. I would have both fucked and voted for Bill Clinton. However, bible thumping and touting family values on one hand, and then divorcing one's wife when she is critically ill and needs you does make one unfit. I can't abide hypocrisy.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:29:57 AM

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Well, if we were sticking to Gringrich, hypocrisy is the least of the problem here: the whole "rules that apply to everybody else don't apply to me" thing is a lot more worrying in an elected official.
Also, there's quite a difference between a moment of weakness and habitual behaviour...

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:35:24 AM

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Then continue on with your Gingrich bash...he deserves it. I'd rather talk in more general terms.

Butch

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:35:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I don't think adultery makes one unfit for office. I would have both fucked and voted for Bill Clinton. However, bible thumping and touting family values on one hand, and then divorcing one's wife when she is critically ill and needs you does make one unfit. I can't abide hypocrisy.

I would have voted for him, but he wasnt my type back then. or now.
The fact he lied, even AFTER he obviously was caught made him dumb as a bag of rocks in my book.

Im not disagreeing with the premise that it makes them fit or unfit...
The worst offenders are the ones who dont get caught..however we dont have the ability to stop them from doing damage yet.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:41:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

the whole "rules that apply to everybody else don't apply to me" thing is a lot more worrying in an elected official.

This is the one thing that bugs me the most about many people in power. Whether it be politicians or CEOs.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:48:50 AM

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Yep. So you'd think that somebody who pretty much flaunts it in a fairly obnoxious manner would be unelectable.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 8:57:11 AM

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I think most of us here have no problem dismissing Newt Gingrich as a serious candidate for reasons that really have nothing to do with his adultery.

But the point is a broader one. If we keep insisting that politicians stick to higher standards than we expect our accountants, financial managers, doctors, etc. to adhere to, we create a situation where men and women who would make good politicians will not go into politics because they are concerned about the scrutiny in what really should be their private life.

Imagine you are college age (getting harder and harder for me, but still, imagine nonetheless) and also single. What if you knew that doctors who commit adultery get no patients. Would you choose the profession not knowing what life will bring your way in terms of relationships and relationship challenges. No one can answer the question beforehand of whether they will commit adultery or not. (Even Catholic priests have been known to start relationships and end up leaving the priesthood -I'm not referring to the priest scandal that is primarily in the news - I just mean men falling for someone and then leaving the priesthood even though they made vows.) No one has a crystal ball. No one knows if they will marry the right person the first time around and what implications that will have for choices they make as they try to sort out their happiness in the relationship. Very few people who commit adultery ever imagine that they would do such a thing. No one plans for it.

I have known many wonderful, thoughtful, intelligent, good people along the way who did not choose a career in politics specifically because of the level of scrutiny on their private lives and families. So we are left in politics with those who still forge ahead even knowing the risks. Is it any surprise that we end up with the megalomaniacs and hypocrites instead of the thoughtful intelligent ones? The thoughtful intelligent ones have pre-selected themselves out of the profession long ago. They are smart enough to take their intelligence and thoughtfulness elsewhere and build a successful career where no one cares about what happens in their private life. With the media focused on all of the wrong things, who would ever want a career in politics in the U.S.? Anyone capable and with enough foresight and appreciation for how difficult relationships can be would never touch a political career, ever. We collectively, as a country, lose out.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 9:04:36 AM

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That's the problem in a nutshell, though: general moral absolutes don't work (at least for adultery and the like). One's moral quality (or lack of it) is shown through one's behaviour as a whole, not just by ticking a few stray boxes.

Hence the gringrich thing: it isn't adultery per se people have a problem with, it's the constant, habitual and classless adultery, coming from somebody who applies far more stringent moral standards to his enemies than he does to himself.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 9:07:10 AM

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I think the difference between Gingrich and Clinton is that Gingrich was seen preaching.... while the video tape of him screwing around was running in the background.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 9:15:20 AM

kdsub

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I always wondered what would have happened if Clinton had just said" My personal life is none of your business" and stuck to his guns.

The Republican would have ranted and raved about morals and fitness for office for a few weeks then it would have all been over.

Lying was his downfall.

Butch

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 9:18:38 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I hate to say this, but the outsize drive and ego to become President IMO is the same one that drives to cheat.

ummmm.. why is it that so many US presidents have cheated and been caught.. but I can not think of a Canadian PM that has.. why is it so prevalent in the US but the opposite in Canada?

I personally am quite disgusted by American politics.. nearly all politicians, regardless of their position (federal, state, city/county), lie thru their teeth, are corrupt, trade favors, get $ under the table, cheat their spouses and cheat their own friggin country.. That, imo, is why the US is now coming to its knees.. politicans are going to be the end of the US as a super power.. they are so busy clawing up the political ladder and clawing at each other, lining their own pockets, cheating, etc that they have allowed the chaos.. imo, corruption is so prevalent that i dont see any way that it can be reversed or fixed..

Gingrich is gross.. I could not have sex with the guy, not for love nor money...

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 9:19:21 AM

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Again, let's stop talking about Newt for a moment. If you read the public reaction to the infidelities of other politicians (there have been countless scandals the last decade), a different picture of the American public emerges. The American public does not take kindly to adultery. Period. Most of the posters on this thread are more open minded than the average American. For most Americans, one transgression on the adultery front is enough to make people feel you are unfit not just for public office, but for anything. Think of the words and language that people use to describe someone who committed adultery. And I strongly feel that this attitude is hurting America's chances of attracting good people to politics. As a country, we are over-emphasizing one dimension, and forgetting about everything else. And it prevents good candidates from entering the political arena at all.

Again, Bernie Madoff was faithful to his wife. My response to this is who the f*** cares, really? At the end of the day, he didn't do what he should have done professionally. Let's leave private lives to each individual. A saint to his wife is not necessarily a saint to the community.

As another example, should interest in BDSM preclude someone from being a doctor (how can a sadist be a good doctor? how can they manage pain in a patient?) or a teacher (how can someone who does these things be a good role model for children?), etc. Well, it has nothing to do with professional responsibility. And I feel the same about adultery. It just has zero to do with politics.

But too many people self-select out of politics because we, as a community, give them no sphere of privacy. Even the leader of a nation deserves a certain sphere of privacy.

If we want better candidates, we have to think about ways to attract them to politics. It has become an undesirable profession.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 9:25:40 AM

vincentML

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Re: the OP

A person can be faithful in marriage and ignorant in national as well as world affairs.

It is possible a person can have multiple adulterous affairs and still be a brilliant and successful leader for his/her constituents,

FBI Director J Edgar Hoover had the adultery goods, it is reported, on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Speaks to the question, I think.

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