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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 3:45:56 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.


You are SO out of touch with history.

Forgot Nixon already?

How about Tammany Hall? Corruption goes WAY back.

You are putting words in my mouth.. I said LESS corrupt then.. I never said it didnt exist at all.. Today you would be hard pressed to find many politicians that havent sold out..

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 3:52:32 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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I guess those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

Teapot dome scandal (1922) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal
Administration of US Grant (1869-1877) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_presidential_administration_scandals
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

JFK was also from privilege, that is not what i am talking about..

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.. its only been the last 2 decades that the 0.01% has been able to control govt the way they do now..



_____________________________

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 3:55:25 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Do you believe it is logical to think a person paying 15% tax would vote to raise his taxes to say 80%?



By this logic FDR would have never implemented the New Deal.




I do not remember "raising taxes on the rich" to be part of the new deal.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 3:57:45 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Do you believe it is logical to think a person paying 15% tax would vote to raise his taxes to say 80%?


By this logic FDR would have never implemented the New Deal.

do you think politics was anywhere nearly as corrupt back in FDR's time? is it even comparable?


It is not too well known that there was a coup attempt against fdr. Smedley butler a retired marine general was chosen to lead the coup.
Yes politics is the same today as it has always been.


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 4:04:39 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Do you believe it is logical to think a person paying 15% tax would vote to raise his taxes to say 80%?


By this logic FDR would have never implemented the New Deal.

do you think politics was anywhere nearly as corrupt back in FDR's time? is it even comparable?


It is not too well known that there was a coup attempt against fdr. Smedley butler a retired marine general was chosen to lead the coup.
Yes politics is the same today as it has always been.


then why vote? why do Americans continue with allowing themselves to be governed this way?

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 4:06:22 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We don't elect lawyers or used car salesmen...at least the be lawyers or salesmen. The election process and the voters are the licensing agents. How many lawyers or used car salesmen have to be licensed every few years?

I think requiring a professional license or degree to be eligible for public office would prohibit many poor or undereducated people from running and participating in their local politics.

Butch



You seem to be utterly ignorant of the structure and function of american political reality.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 4:10:52 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

just some sort of vetting/licensing process. I'd favor background checks and drug tests for one thing.


If this were a requirement there would be few politicians in poor cities in my area. Many elected officials in my area can hardly read and write...

Neither could dubbya

but they do a good job representing their cities.

Asshole deep in debt and bleeding in the sandbox.

The tweaks of this world are the only ones thinking that only millionaires are elected to public office... Hell the vast majority of elected officials in this country I'll bet make less than $150,000 a year.

Google could diabuse you of your ignorance in a few keystrokes.

There are existing qualifications for elected office that serve us just fine…The rest is and should be up to us…that’s our job.

Like the one that would let a traitor like ace mccain run for office?

PS… It would be much better to license voters then politicians...but if you mention it you will be called a racists ..but its Ok ...even noble to talk of licensing politicians.

I did not suggest it was noble to license a politician I was thinking more on the order of putting a bell on the cat.

Butch


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 4:12:18 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I guess those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

Teapot dome scandal (1922) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal
Administration of US Grant (1869-1877) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_presidential_administration_scandals
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

JFK was also from privilege, that is not what i am talking about..

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.. its only been the last 2 decades that the 0.01% has been able to control govt the way they do now..



is anything in history comparable to the recent bailouts of bankers? to the bailouts of large corps? to the trillions in debt the US taxpayers are now stuck with? to the cost to the rest of the world due to securitization? to the illegal costly war in Iraq which still today costs US taxpayers?
okkkkkkk (shrug)

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 4:32:17 PM   
tazzygirl


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The usual explanations include numerous factors, especially high consumer debt, ill-regulated markets that permitted overoptimistic loans by banks and investors, the lack of high-growth new industries,[2] all interacting to create a downward economic spiral of reduced spending, falling confidence, and lowered production.[3]

Industries that suffered the most included construction, agriculture as dust-bowl conditions persisted in the agricultural heartland, shipping, mining, and logging as well as durable goods like automobiles and appliances that could be postponed. The economy reached bottom in the winter of 1932–33; then came four years of very rapid growth until 1937, when the Recession of 1937 brought back 1934 levels of unemployment.[4] The depression caused major political changes in America. Three years into the depression, Herbert Hoover lost the 1932 presidential election to Franklin Delano Roosevelt in a sweeping landslide. Roosevelt's economic recovery plan, the New Deal, instituted unprecedented programs for relief, recovery and reform, and brought about a major realignment of American politics.

Not really all that different except for the bailouts to prevent sinking as deeply as the GD.

A break down...


    Effects of depression in the U.S.[30]:
    13 million people became unemployed. In 1932, 34 million people belonged to families with no regular full-time wage earner.[31]
    Industrial production fell by nearly 45% between 1929 and 1932.
    Homebuilding dropped by 80% between the years 1929 and 1932.
    In the 1920s, the banking system in the U.S. was about $50 billion, which was about 50% of GDP.[32]
    From 1929 to 1932, about 5,000 banks went out of business.
    By 1933, 11,000 of the US' 25,000 banks had failed.[33]
    Between 1929 and 1933, U.S. GDP fell around 30%, the stock market lost almost 90% of its value.[34]
    In 1929, the unemployment rate averaged 3%.[35]
    In 1933, 25% of all workers and 37% of all nonfarm workers were unemployed.[36]
    In Cleveland, the unemployment rate was 50%; in Toledo, Ohio, 80%.[31]
    One Soviet trading corporation in New York averaged 350 applications a day from Americans seeking jobs in the Soviet Union.[37]
    Over one million families lost their farms between 1930 and 1934.[31]
    Corporate profits had dropped from $10 billion in 1929 to $1 billion in 1932.[31]
    Between 1929 and 1932, the income of the average American family was reduced by 40%.[38]
    Nine million savings accounts had been wiped out between 1930 and 1933.[31]
    273,000 families had been evicted from their homes in 1932.[31]
    There were two million homeless people migrating around the country.[31]
    Over 60% of Americans were categorized as poor by the federal government in 1933.[31]
    In the last prosperous year (1929), there were 279,678 immigrants recorded, but in 1933 only 23,068 came to the U.S.[39][40]
    In the early 1930s, more people emigrated from the United States than immigrated to it.[41]
    With little economic activity there was scant demand for new coinage. No nickels or dimes were minted in 1932–33, no quarter dollars in 1931 or 1933, no half dollars from 1930–32, and no silver dollars in the years 1929–33.
    The U.S. government sponsored a Mexican Repatriation program which was intended to encourage people to voluntarily move to Mexico, but thousands, including some U.S. citizens, were deported against their will. Altogether about 400,000 Mexicans were repatriated.[42]
    New York social workers reported that 25% of all schoolchildren were malnourished. In the mining counties of West Virginia, Illinois, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania, the proportion of malnourished children was perhaps as high as 90%.[31]
    Many people became ill with diseases such as tuberculosis (TB).[31]
    The 1930 U.S. Census determined the U.S. population to be 122,775,046. About 40% of the population was under 20 years.[43]



< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 1/20/2012 4:40:35 PM >


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 4:40:31 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I do not remember "raising taxes on the rich" to be part of the new deal.


Go back and look at the Revenue Acts of 1935, 36 and 37.

As a group, these New Deal Revenue Acts substantially boosted the tax burden on rich Americans.

FDR was a supporter of redistribution of wealth. He believed that concentration of wealth in the hands of few was detrimental to the ultimate success of the country. His perspective was correct back then, and it remains correct today.

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 5:03:51 PM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

the whole "rules that apply to everybody else don't apply to me" thing is a lot more worrying in an elected official.



This is the one thing that bugs me the most about many people in power. Whether it be politicians or CEOs.



quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Does adultery, in and of itself, really make someone unfit for political office? I would appreciate any information that anyone has on this as I try to sort this out in my own mind. Thanks.


I think power is the culprit here, not whether a candidate is fit or unfit based on his ethics. We all want responsible, ethical people elected into office, no matter what party or what office you're voting someone into. Church leaders get too much power and feel they ARE God. Politicians are placed in a powerful position and they begin to think they are above the law. Wasn't it Nixon who said something to the effect of...I don't have to obey the law...I am the law. (It was something like that, anyway) It is that power of position that makes them think they are exempt from ethics, if ethics are getting in their way. I'm not saying every president or even politician gives in to ethics because of their power, but I can certainly see how tempting it might be to one. After all...absolute power corrupts absolutely, so they say.




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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 5:21:27 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
I don't think being an adulterer makes anyone more likely to rob a bank or to cheat on their taxes. I think it makes them a person that is struggling with the idea of society telling them they must be something that they're not capable of being.


You had lots to say in your post that I completely agree with. I just wanted to highlight the above. Again, I think to the extent that we give people a certain zone of privacy it would really be helpful when trying to make the public/private distinction. Many issues that are very divisive in our society (gay rights, abortion, birth control, adultery, etc.) are such precisely because we currently have the wrong distinction between public and private. The laws should be structured to give people personal privacy and latitude in their personal relationships and choices. When government gets too far into the bedroom, it is problematic. And the flip side of this, is that we need to stop caring about what our politicians do privately, and focus more on what policies they support. Government out of the bedroom means we should also, as the public, be out of the bedrooms of our politicians. Let all the bedroom stuff be sorted out by individuals with some respect for privacy and the right of people to their bodies and their choices. Thanks for your comments (and I completely understand wanting to focus on my original post - I can barely keep up with where this thread has gone, although I am actually very happy to see people debating elections and economic policy rather than adultery. Sort of my point, I guess.)

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 7:41:39 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

I think I already have once, but it didnt make any difference, so no deference


No never have...but I'll try to do better

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/20/2012 7:42:07 PM >


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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 10:31:48 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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Do you believe all those things you list are the result of out and out corruption? Because I don't. Some of those things were acts of desperation and bad judgment,not overt corruption, like the dome scandal and the grant cabinet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I guess those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

Teapot dome scandal (1922) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal
Administration of US Grant (1869-1877) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_presidential_administration_scandals
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

JFK was also from privilege, that is not what i am talking about..

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.. its only been the last 2 decades that the 0.01% has been able to control govt the way they do now..



is anything in history comparable to the recent bailouts of bankers? to the bailouts of large corps? to the trillions in debt the US taxpayers are now stuck with? to the cost to the rest of the world due to securitization? to the illegal costly war in Iraq which still today costs US taxpayers?
okkkkkkk (shrug)


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/20/2012 10:54:16 PM   
tj444


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then we are talking about totally different things.. I sorta got the impression with the OWS and anti-1% movement that many people think today's politicians are bought and paid for by that 1% (its really the 0.01% that have the $ & control).

That was my point about corruption today, it seems to me that its rampant to the point that there seems to be no honest politicians left.. and as a result it doesnt matter who you vote for, they are all the same.. All the money with the bailouts.. who did that really benefit? Now its the bankers that run the country, not the voters..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Do you believe all those things you list are the result of out and out corruption? Because I don't. Some of those things were acts of desperation and bad judgment,not overt corruption, like the dome scandal and the grant cabinet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I guess those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

Teapot dome scandal (1922) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal
Administration of US Grant (1869-1877) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant_presidential_administration_scandals
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

JFK was also from privilege, that is not what i am talking about..

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.. its only been the last 2 decades that the 0.01% has been able to control govt the way they do now..



is anything in history comparable to the recent bailouts of bankers? to the bailouts of large corps? to the trillions in debt the US taxpayers are now stuck with? to the cost to the rest of the world due to securitization? to the illegal costly war in Iraq which still today costs US taxpayers?
okkkkkkk (shrug)




_____________________________

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/21/2012 4:56:56 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.


You are SO out of touch with history.

Forgot Nixon already?

How about Tammany Hall? Corruption goes WAY back.



Further back than that, even: Francis Dashwood and his Hellfire club were mostly MPs. Mind you, adultery was seen as less of an issue in the 18th century...

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/21/2012 6:24:20 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

Mind you, adultery was seen as less of an issue in the 18th century...


Yes, and it would be good if we could return to that attitude on adultery. So that we can actually focus on politics.

Let people sort out their private lives on their own time. And let's stop allowing media to constantly derail the discussion.

What is a person's public professional record? What policies have they supported? What is their vision for the future of the country? What are there specific proposals? I care much more about these questions that about their bedroom antics.

_____________________________

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/21/2012 7:03:21 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What I meant was that politicians were less corrupt then.


You are SO out of touch with history.

Forgot Nixon already?

How about Tammany Hall? Corruption goes WAY back.

You are putting words in my mouth.. I said LESS corrupt then.. I never said it didnt exist at all.

No, there was no room, your foot was in the way.

You did say less corrupt. Nixon and Tammany Hall were hardly less corrupt, nor was Teapot Dome, as another poster mentioned. And these are just a few standout examples.

Corruption goes all the way back to George Washington.

List of federal political scandals in the United States

Here's a Canadian list for you too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_political_scandals



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/21/2012 7:15:17 AM >

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/21/2012 7:06:08 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

Mind you, adultery was seen as less of an issue in the 18th century...


Yes, and it would be good if we could return to that attitude on adultery. So that we can actually focus on politics.

Let people sort out their private lives on their own time. And let's stop allowing media to constantly derail the discussion.

What is a person's public professional record? What policies have they supported? What is their vision for the future of the country? What are there specific proposals? I care much more about these questions that about their bedroom antics.

It certainly was an issue in the 19th century...

In the election of 1884, the phrase "Ma, ma, where's my pa?" was started by the Republican camp backing James Blaine for president and was quickly picked up by political satirists of the time. It referred to an affair which the Democratic nominee, Grover Cleveland, had before he entered public life. While practicing law in Buffalo, New York, he had a brief relationship with a woman named Maria Halpin who later gave birth to a son. Although Maria admitted to having 'relations' with other men around the same time, Grover Cleveland chose to accept paternity since all the other men named were married at the time and he was not.

When the political cartoon depicting a woman with a baby carriage, child plaintively asking "ma, ma, where's my pa?" started circulating, Cleveland's campaign manager advised him to deny the allegation and claim the child belonged to another man. He might have even said to Mr. Cleveland, "Wag your finger at the reporters and say "I have not had sexual relations with that woman."

He chose not to take that advice. He accepted responsibility for the child and provided a modicum of support, though not going so far as to adopt the boy. The strategy apparently worked because Cleveland won the election, though by a narrow margin. His campaign team even ran a retort after he won. "Ma, ma, where's my pa? Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!"

Cigar jokes aside, it seems Bill Clinton could have saved himself a lot of hassle had he just come up with a good slogan.

http://everything2.com/title/Ma%252C+ma%252C+where%2527s+my+pa%253F

'Course, he wasn't married yet, and this was the 19th century.

So an 18th century scandal? Sure!

Alexander Hamilton's Very Modern 18th Century Sex Scandal

And of course, Thomas Jefferson's scandal...sleeping with his slaves and fathering children...
Thomas Jefferson Honors Promise to Dying Wife... Sort Of

Incidentally, Bill Clinton did nothing unique...Warren G. Harding did his mistress, an admirer 31 years younger, in a closet near the Oval Office; her obsession started as a teen, when he was senator.

Men, dicks, attractive women. It happens...and always has.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/21/2012 7:26:13 AM >

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RE: Fitness to Serve for Public Office - 1/21/2012 7:48:35 AM   
Moonhead


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That's the Victorians for you: horribly moralistic killjoys who raised hypocrisy to a fine art.

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