RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist?

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Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/26/2012 8:13:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras The above merely relates to their theological stance based on the Talmud, which is a Third Century interpretation by some rabbi's at the time. There are other stances which justify Zionism in religious terms which the majority of Orthodox Jews today support. The above has nothing to do with your attempt to pass them off as representative of mainstream Jewish opinion or the points I made about their extremist stance on the Holocaust for which they actually blame Jews. In fact the NK are reviled in much of the Jewish world today. Yes most religions rely upon a theological stance. LOL and that is a problem with you how exactly? The problem here is that you are obfuscating in order to pretend you weren't shot down by citing the Neturei Karta. You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too! Do you think they supported Hitler too?" http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4011158 quote: yeh in fact lots of jews say it was the jews fault. apparently you have a problem with that too huh. Once again its not lots of Jews. The Neturei Karta membership is around 5,000 worldwide. Read the fucking links I posted up. quote: apparently they need to ask you for divine guidance. So you think the "Orthodox Rabbis" are extremists because they do not fall into your preconceived little box eh? They are extremists because they believe all manner of extreme anti-Semitic conspiracies that the far-right neo-Nazi's embrace. Once again they are not merely "orthodox rabbi's" but a small sect of ultra-orthodox within the bigger orthodox community. The more mainstream orthodox community today largely accepts Israel's right to exist. In fact many of the most feverant settlers in the West Bank are orthodox. quote: Zionisn is NOT a religion Dec 25, 2008 - 8 min The truth about Zionism. It is not a Jewish faith or religion. It is terrorism. These are thugs of the Middle East. Thank you for your utterly absurd ZOG/Nazi video with some un-named retard claiming such gems as the Nazi's were executed in 1945 so they couldn't reveal the co-operation between Nazis and Zionists. PMSL Your sources just get better and better, don't they? [:D] quote: Zionism is the state government of Israel that is back peddling to put themselves in a more respectable light by claiming they now somehow connected to judaism when everyone knows its pure bullshit. (well almost everyone) Since when are you an expert on Jewish theology? I'm not but I know the vast majority of Jews the world over support Israel. Surveys which are taken frequently prove that fact. quote: WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE... [edited once again due to R0 block quoting to fill his empty posts with an appearance of substance] so even jews want israel off the map. Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors.

tweakabelle -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/26/2012 9:30:46 PM)
It's as clear as daylight that, at this point in time, a critical part of the argument proposing terrorism/bombing/military action against Iran has no basis in fact and instead relies on two hypotheticals or if you prefer, suspicions - to wit: * that the Iranians are attempting to manufacture nuclear weapons; and * that, if successful in the first hypothetical, the Iranians will then use the nuclear weapons against Israel. Therefore it must be the case that there is no "clear and immediate danger" to any one emanating from Iran's nuclear program. With the proviso that this may change as further facts emerge, there is no moral or legal basis for aggressive violence against Iran or any of its citizens. This article, written by a diplomat who has participated personally in the negotiations, proposes a simple, peaceful and immediate resolution of the crisis. Iran has already indicated its agreement to the formula for a negotiated resolution on the proposed basis. I do not see any reason why it can't be adopted and implemented immediately. Self-evidently, this would be a far better resolution than more violence and loss of life. The spotlight should now be turned onto the identity and motivations of the warmongers. Why have these countries/people provoked the crisis and taken us to the brink of war unnecessarily?

Edwynn -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 4:10:25 AM)
I don't know what to tell you, tweakabelle. You (perhaps) know where I stand on any question of war. Iran changed from taking USD to Euros for their oil, and now are threatening to invade precious markets of the US and Western European countries for sales of enriched uranium, used in all nuclear power plants. That's reason enough, isn't it? Oh, silly me, I forgot, that's not in the play plan for the coming war, is it? What is the ruse, again? Oh, that's right, they are going to bomb the bejezus out of everybody soon as they can. How much you wanna bet that Pakistan pays international trade bills in USD and doesn't export enriched uranium? So the EU has placed an embargo on Iranian oil and Iran has halted sales to the EU. Have fun there. I hope they all go down the tubes.

VideoAdminGamma -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 4:49:51 AM)
Fast reply Please remain on topic or the slight thread drift. I have pulled a few hijack attempts and their responses. If you did not receive a copy of your post and would like it, please contact me. Thank you for your contribution to the forums, VideoAdminGamma

thompsonx -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 3:19:36 PM)
quote: You brought up irrationality but I suggest you look in the mirror. Where have I been shown that the translations are faulty? I posted up a balanced article from a source that is generally well regarded, which took into account both sides of the argument and demonstrated the opposite and there has been no counter-factual source I was "shown". Your translations are called to question by the interview on 60 minutes which you disagree with but refuse to view. How logical is it to disagree with something you have not heard?

thompsonx -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 3:31:21 PM)
quote: I don't need to hear one interview. I have heard and read quite a number of his interviews which go into some depth over the issue, and he makes largely the same points so your precious interview is unlikely to illuminate his stance much more. If you wish to address some points in the interview then I suggest you motivate your old self and post them up here instead of putting all the onus on myself to seek it out and try to guess what you wish to "discuss" (I use the word loosely). I would like to discuss the 60 minutes interview that deals with the translation of what the president of iran said.

thompsonx -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 3:33:53 PM)
quote: quote: If you asked Hitler if he meant to harm Jews and he said "no" would you also accept his word? Hitler's writtings were quite clear about his intentions about the jews and the russians. That's not relevant, clearly I was positing a hypothetical. Your hypothetical was shown to be full of shit so now it is not relevant...how convenient. Do you actually know what a "hypothetical" is? Here is a definition http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypothetical - e.g. "Conditional; contingent." - I posited a hypothetical that if Hitler denied his malign intent toward Jews, would Icarys then believe him? It matters not a jot what Hitler said in reality with this posit. because it was a hypothetical. BTW you continually treat the views of others with contempt on this forum with your very evident "attitude" but how about showing a bit of restraint toning down the language? You posted a bullshit question and got a straight logical truthfull answer that did not agree with what you want to believe..and now you would like me to show some restraint in pointing out your failure in both logic and facts...don't hold your breath on that one.

thompsonx -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 3:39:05 PM)
quote: Really, what facts have you backed up here except to cite an interview that you didn't even post a link to? Would you like someone to hold your hand for you? If you are not capable of going to google and looking up the interview then why are you even in this discussion? I have posted to a goodly number of articles and clips which you dismissed with contempt so any facts others cite which don't agree with your world-view are entirely wasted on you. You have cited opinion not fact. You may value opinion but I value facts. Others are entitled to come to conclusions based on the evidence they have, even if the conclusions do not suit you. The conclusions you or anyone else take from opinion are subject to logical attack, dont you think? I think the problem comes down to your ego and intolerence of anyone else's view but your own. No it is my intolerance of willful ignorance supported driven by blind faith in opinion and not my ego that is the problem. Want evidence of my like "opinion"? Pretty much every post you put up where you take a stance of "oh thats just YOUR opinion". When the facts contradict to your opinion, where does that leave your opinion? Show some decency, your views are not inherently better than others. When the facts suport my opinion then it is inherently better than others.

Real0ne -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 3:50:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too! Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors. I am obfuscating? First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community". I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 4:27:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: You brought up irrationality but I suggest you look in the mirror. Where have I been shown that the translations are faulty? I posted up a balanced article from a source that is generally well regarded, which took into account both sides of the argument and demonstrated the opposite and there has been no counter-factual source I was "shown". Your translations are called to question by the interview on 60 minutes which you disagree with but refuse to view. How logical is it to disagree with something you have not heard? This is pure obfuscation on your part. Firstly they are not "MY" translations but the opinions of experts. I knew you would come back with an intellectually dishonest point like the above which is percisely why I stated that I already have heard and read a number of his interviews, and thus it is unlikely I haven't heard any explanation of his already whether featured in the 60 minutes interview or not. I also stated that if there was anything you wished to raise that appertains to that interview then you could do so. You have not until your subsequent response. I suggest you stop wastefully questioning others and put forth your own views. quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: I don't need to hear one interview. I have heard and read quite a number of his interviews which go into some depth over the issue, and he makes largely the same points so your precious interview is unlikely to illuminate his stance much more. If you wish to address some points in the interview then I suggest you motivate your old self and post them up here instead of putting all the onus on myself to seek it out and try to guess what you wish to "discuss" (I use the word loosely). I would like to discuss the 60 minutes interview that deals with the translation of what the president of iran said. Then make your case? What in god or dog's name are you waiting for? quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: quote: If you asked Hitler if he meant to harm Jews and he said "no" would you also accept his word? Hitler's writtings were quite clear about his intentions about the jews and the russians. That's not relevant, clearly I was positing a hypothetical. Your hypothetical was shown to be full of shit so now it is not relevant...how convenient. Do you actually know what a "hypothetical" is? Here is a definition http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypothetical - e.g. "Conditional; contingent." - I posited a hypothetical that if Hitler denied his malign intent toward Jews, would Icarys then believe him? It matters not a jot what Hitler said in reality with this posit. because it was a hypothetical. BTW you continually treat the views of others with contempt on this forum with your very evident "attitude" but how about showing a bit of restraint toning down the language? You posted a bullshit question and got a straight logical truthfull answer that did not agree with what you want to believe..and now you would like me to show some restraint in pointing out your failure in both logic and facts...don't hold your breath on that one. I did not post a "bullshit" question but a hypothetical. A hypothetical is a "what if" question. When a "what if" is involved, it suspends the actual reality appertaining to the "what if". Thus when I say "what if Hitler pretended he didn't want to harm the Jews", it suspends any assertion of hatred that he made in reality. I don't know how much clearer that can be. You answer was neither logical, since you initially seemed to be unable to comprehend what a hypothetical was, nor truthful because a hypothetical has been explained to you in clear simple language, and yet you persist in insisting you are right. I meant restraint in terms of your language not criticism. You display a contempt for the views of others. Now you excuse it away. I suggest that is a character flaw.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 4:44:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Really, what facts have you backed up here except to cite an interview that you didn't even post a link to? Would you like someone to hold your hand for you? If you are not capable of going to google and looking up the interview then why are you even in this discussion? All you cited was an interview he posted in 2006. I do not know whether it is online or not. You have even failed to detail what particular content it raises which refutes my stance. Meanwhile you haven't even bothered to properly address a single point I raised and backed up with links. Arguing with you is like a sad little psychological game of attack. quote: quote: I have posted to a goodly number of articles and clips which you dismissed with contempt so any facts others cite which don't agree with your world-view are entirely wasted on you. You said you failed Your response makes no sense except to suggest these ridiculous debates with you are about winning rather than trying to understand another perspective. quote: You have cited opinion not fact. You may value opinion but I value facts. Oh no you certainly fucking don't. If you valued facts you would have addressed even one or two of the numerous links I provided which contradict your own "opinions". quote: Others are entitled to come to conclusions based on the evidence they have, even if the conclusions do not suit you. The conclusions you or anyone else take from opinion are subject to logical attack, dont you think? Obviously they are subject to criticism but why should it be "attack"? Secondly you have not refuted a single one of my points to date with anything resembling a "logical attack". quote: I think the problem comes down to your ego and intolerence of anyone else's view but your own. No it is my intolerance of willful ignorance supported driven by blind faith in opinion and not my ego that is the problem. Your ego certainly is the problem dear boy. Wilful ignorance? Now that really is funny. You refuse to accept anything that does not suit your "opinion". You then transmogify your "opinion" into fact, whilst the facts others cite are transformed into "opinions" in your bizarre world. Thus nothing anybody says will ever have any impact on yourself no matter how factually based. For example I cited close to ten examples of Ahmadinejad using very threatening language toward Israel and you failed to address every single one. quote: Want evidence of my like "opinion"? Pretty much every post you put up where you take a stance of "oh thats just YOUR opinion". When the facts contradict to your opinion, where does that leave your opinion? You keep asserting you have facts, yet you won't even show them. Thus the question should be "where does that leave YOUR opinions which you keep saying are based on facts?" quote: Show some decency, your views are not inherently better than others. When the facts suport my opinion then it is inherently better than others. There you are again with your mythical facts which you won't cite properly and won't even allude to properly. Your posting here shows an extraordinary degree of hubris. It really does seem as if you truly believe your opinions are somehow implicitly "facts"

Epytropos -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 4:47:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Let me see if I understand this correctly? If a country would like to have nuclear power it must buy that technology from someone who does have it because if a country tries to develop it by themselves they are terrorist and can be stoped by any means necessary? Is that about it? Did I say any of that? Because I read my posts pretty carefully and I can't find the word "terrorist" or "buy" or for that matter "any means necessary" anywhere. I don't want to say for certain I read it correctly, but since I wrote it I'd like to think that memory served me well in my rereading.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 5:04:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too! Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors. I am obfuscating? Yes you are, and you do so repeatedly. quote: First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community". The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of. quote: I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community. Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? [:D] The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938.

Kirata -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 5:44:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras Ama Dinna has also used similarly apocalyptic war-like language since that article against Israel and to a lesser extent the US such as http://www.iranfocus.com/en/?option=com_content&task=view&id=7885 in 2006 Although the headline editorializes, "Ahmadinejad: World will soon witness the demise of Israel," the actual quote it cites states: In the near future we will witness the rapid collapse of the Zionist regime, Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the north-western city of Jolfa. quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras http://sms.islamweb.net/emainpage/printarticle.php?id=146881&lang=E at a UN speech in 2008 calling Israel a cesspool on a definite slope of collapse, Again, the use of "Israel" is editorializing: "The Zionist regime is on a definite slope to collapse, and there is no way for it to get out of the cesspool created by itself and its supporters," he told delegates. quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras in 2010 stating that Iran has a plan to alter the world order http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4386.htm whilst claiming the Jews only appear to be human There is no reference to Jews (as a people) in his quoted remarks. The source is editorializing. He is talking about the Zionists. "...Sixty years ago, they [i.e. the West] gathered the filthiest and greatest of criminals, who [only] appear to be human [i.e. the Jews] from all the corners of the earth, organized and armed them – on artificial and false pretexts, fabricating information and inventing stories [hinting at the Holocaust]. They gave [the Jews] propaganda and military backing so that they would occupy the lands of Palestine and uproot the Palestinian nation..." quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras and in 2011 threatened to send Israel to the morgue: http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Security/Iran-Ahmadinejad-threatens-to-send-US-Israel-to-the-morgue_312263292675.html Well not quite. What the link quoted him as actually saying was: Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has threatened to destroy the United States and Israel if put on the defensive. K.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 6:38:06 PM)
Its good to see someone responding to the content I linked to, even if to debunk the assertions. Here is the reply: quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras Ama Dinna has also used similarly apocalyptic war-like language since that article against Israel and to a lesser extent the US such as http://www.iranfocus.com/en/?option=com_content&task=view&id=7885 in 2006 Although the headline editorializes, "Ahmadinejad: World will soon witness the demise of Israel," the actual quote it cites states: In the near future we will witness the rapid collapse of the Zionist regime, Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the north-western city of Jolfa. quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras http://sms.islamweb.net/emainpage/printarticle.php?id=146881&lang=E at a UN speech in 2008 calling Israel a cesspool on a definite slope of collapse, Again, the use of "Israel" is editorializing: "The Zionist regime is on a definite slope to collapse, and there is no way for it to get out of the cesspool created by itself and its supporters," he told delegates. The headline of the first link seems reasonable enough to me. Admadinejad and other members of the Iranian authorities often call Israel the "Zionist Entity" or "Zionist Regime" rather than use the name of the State itself as if using its actual name would lend it some sort of legitimacy. That point is sometimes noted in articles when quoting Ahmadinejad. If you think there is some genuine difference in meaning between "Zionist regime" and "Israel" perhaps you could elaborate? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras in 2010 stating that Iran has a plan to alter the world order http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4386.htm whilst claiming the Jews only appear to be human There is no reference to Jews (as a people) in his quoted remarks. The source is editorializing. He is talking about the Zionists. "...Sixty years ago, they [i.e. the West] gathered the filthiest and greatest of criminals, who [only] appear to be human [i.e. the Jews] from all the corners of the earth, organized and armed them – on artificial and false pretexts, fabricating information and inventing stories [hinting at the Holocaust]. They gave [the Jews] propaganda and military backing so that they would occupy the lands of Palestine and uproot the Palestinian nation..." We must disagree. He states: "Sixty years ago, they [i.e. the West] gathered the filthiest and greatest of criminals, who [only] appear to be human [i.e. the Jews] from all the corners of the earth, organized and armed them..." It seems reasonable that the people from the four corners of the earth should be characterised as Jews as the article suggests because that is surely their principle identity, and he is referring to the Jewish diaspora by referring to the four corners of the earth. He doesn't distinguish them with Zionists in the statement. You could of course argue that they believed in Zionism in order to go to Israel but firstly to be labelled a "Zionist" necessitates it being a strong belief, and many that went or fled to the Palestinian mandate went there for reasons of safety, for example the 800,000+ Jews that fled the pogroms in nearby Arab lands from the 1930's to the 1960's. Others chose to live there for religious reasons that were not necessarily Zionist as Jews had moved there since the Sixteenth century - long before Zionism became a movement. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras and in 2011 threatened to send Israel to the morgue: http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Security/Iran-Ahmadinejad-threatens-to-send-US-Israel-to-the-morgue_312263292675.html Well not quite. What the link quoted him as actually saying was: Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has threatened to destroy the United States and Israel if put on the defensive. The article asserted the above but not as a quote. It was produced as an intent of Ahmadinejad's but immediately after that sentence, it quoted him as saying "Resistance will continue until Iran sends its enemies to the morgue." Below the quote the article stated: "Ahmadinejad may have been reacting to news from Iranian state media that Iran brought down a U.S. "spy drone" flying near its Fordo nuclear enrichment plant in Qom province." which may explain the "if put on the defensive" proviso but it isn't backed up with a quote.

Real0ne -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 7:13:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too! Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors. I am obfuscating? Yes you are, and you do so repeatedly. On the contrary you duck under anything you can to change the focus of my statements to fit your never ending army of strawmen. quote: First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community". The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of. Again you move those goal posts out of focus. I suppose thats my fault. LOL Jewish faith refers to "judaism" not zionism. I hope that clears it up. quote: I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community. Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? [:D] The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938. apparently I am considerably more an expert than you are. The NK follow the dictates of their religion. Its the same way with any religion, some follow the word others stray and yet they all accept the same label. The NK just happens to be correct. Feel free to show where their take is religiously incorrect.

tweakabelle -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/27/2012 7:22:02 PM)
quote: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras in 2010 stating that Iran has a plan to alter the world order http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4386.htm whilst claiming the Jews only appear to be human There is no reference to Jews (as a people) in his quoted remarks. The source is editorializing. He is talking about the Zionists. "...Sixty years ago, they [i.e. the West] gathered the filthiest and greatest of criminals, who [only] appear to be human [i.e. the Jews] from all the corners of the earth, organized and armed them – on artificial and false pretexts, fabricating information and inventing stories [hinting at the Holocaust]. They gave [the Jews] propaganda and military backing so that they would occupy the lands of Palestine and uproot the Palestinian nation..." The source used here - Middle East Media Research Institute or MEMRI - is also considered by many as contentious. MEMRI has a long history of editorialising (as opposed to translating). These incidences of 'editorialising' invariably promote the Israeli point of view, and are pejorative to non-Israeli interests. Is any of this a surprise after taking into account that the founder of MEMRI was "a Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon [who] spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin"? Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told the Washington Times: "MEMRI's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible".* Whether MEMRI is a 'false flag' operation or not I cannot be certain. I can be certain that MEMRI exhibits many of the signs of a 'false flag' propaganda operation, designed to deceive and shape Western perceptions of Middle Eastern issues to Israel's advantage. Whenever I have checked out allegedly 'independent' links/sources offered a certain very vocal Zionist supporter, invariably I have discovered a close association between the links/sources and Zionist interests. This makes a mockery of accusations of media "bias" coming from that particular quarter. * Both of these quotes are taken from the Guardian article linked earlier in my post - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

Anaxagoras -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/28/2012 3:29:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too! Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors. I am obfuscating? Yes you are, and you do so repeatedly. On the contrary you duck under anything you can to change the focus of my statements to fit your never ending army of strawmen. This is a nonsense. It is you who is strawmanning by pretending I was arguing to make a different point (e.g. who the NK represent) when the source of contention was extremely clear all along. If I do as you say then it should be very easy to cite several charges of strawmanning. Please do so and we can address them one by one. quote: quote: First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community". The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of. Again you move those goal posts out of focus. I suppose thats my fault. LOL Jewish faith refers to "judaism" not zionism. I hope that clears it up. Here is another example of your strawmanning by pretending the argument is something else. The Jewish faith is of course Judasim. I never said otherwise. The issue was whether the Neturei Karta, who are extreme anti-Zionists, were representative of Judaism as you repeatedly made them out to be. They clearly are not. End of. quote: quote: quote: I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community. Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? [:D] The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938. apparently I am considerably more an expert than you are. The NK follow the dictates of their religion. Its the same way with any religion, some follow the word others stray and yet they all accept the same label. The NK just happens to be correct. Feel free to show where their take is religiously incorrect. There are a huge number of Jewish scholars, perhaps more so than other faiths. Do you expect me to believe 99% of them are wrong and the NK, a tiny religious sect are correct? It is extremely amusing that you, who has a very overt hatred of Jews and has denied the Holocaust repeatedly on this forum, is now dictating what is true Judasim and what isn't. You are not an expert on Judaism or you would not have cited a tiny minority the Neturei Karta as representative of Judaism (broad mainstream Jewish and Orthodox opinion) in your previous posts, unless you are trying to lie as well. Which is it: are you an expert who is a liar or someone lacking even the slightest modicum of knowledge.

Real0ne -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/28/2012 10:23:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne On the contrary you duck under anything you can to change the focus of my statements to fit your never ending army of strawmen. This is a nonsense. It is you who is strawmanning by pretending I was arguing to make a different point (e.g. who the NK represent) when the source of contention was extremely clear all along. If I do as you say then it should be very easy to cite several charges of strawmanning. Please do so and we can address them one by one. you are! How many more times do I need to cite them? conflating terms, inappropriate word substitution, obfuscating points, unfounded opinions as fact, hyperbole, pejoratives, I mean its every known intellectual dishonest trick in the book! CLEARLY! LOL you gotta be kidding, address them one at a time, you cant even stay on point for the first one much less add more to the mix. quote: quote: First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community". The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of. Again you move those goal posts out of focus. I suppose thats my fault. LOL Jewish faith refers to "judaism" not zionism. I hope that clears it up. Here is another example of your strawmanning by pretending the argument is something else. The Jewish faith is of course Judasim. I never said otherwise. The issue was whether the Neturei Karta, who are extreme anti-Zionists, were representative of Judaism as you repeatedly made them out to be. They clearly are not. End of. I am the one who made the fucking argument in the first place! How the hell can I pretend that my argument is something else LOL How do you know they are extreme? Are they obfuscating their religion in some way that you object to? Do you think that jews are representative of the muslim or christian religions then, if not jew? quote: quote: quote: I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community. Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? [:D] The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938. apparently I am considerably more an expert than you are. The NK follow the dictates of their religion. Its the same way with any religion, some follow the word others stray and yet they all accept the same label. The NK just happens to be correct. Feel free to show where their take is religiously incorrect. There are a huge number of Jewish scholars, perhaps more so than other faiths. Do you expect me to believe 99% of them are wrong and the NK, a tiny religious sect are correct? It is extremely amusing that you, who has a very overt hatred of Jews and has denied the Holocaust repeatedly on this forum, is now dictating what is true Judasim and what isn't. Rabbis deny the holocaust, I just repeated what they said! The question is what kind of fucked up system are you using to connect a strictly academic position to hatred? People who are intellectually dishonest, when they cant get on top of an argument always resort to hyperbole and emotionalism in their last breath before their titanic turd sinks. You are not an expert on Judaism or you would not have cited a tiny minority the Neturei Karta as representative of Judaism (broad mainstream Jewish and Orthodox opinion) in your previous posts, unless you are trying to lie as well. Which is it: are you an expert who is a liar or someone lacking even the slightest modicum of knowledge. Since when does "broad" and "mainstream" have "ANYTHING" to do with correctness unless you are trying to win a popularity contest where the least informed wins? Really? How do you know what I am an expert in and how do you know that your perception of who is an expert would have cited any differently? Oh and now I am a liar with no knowledge? All I have seen here is your off focus opinions from someone who obviously never even cracked the cover of the torah or talmud.

mnottertail -> RE: Who is Killing Iranian Nuclear Scientist? (1/28/2012 10:25:06 AM)
And these guys are killing Iranian Nuclear Scientists, or what are you straw-manning and hijacking and taking off topic?

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