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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
The above merely relates to their theological stance based on the Talmud, which is a Third Century interpretation by some rabbi's at the time. There are other stances which justify Zionism in religious terms which the majority of Orthodox Jews today support. The above has nothing to do with your attempt to pass them off as representative of mainstream Jewish opinion or the points I made about their extremist stance on the Holocaust for which they actually blame Jews. In fact the NK are reviled in much of the Jewish world today.

Yes most religions rely upon a theological stance.  LOL

and that is a problem with you how exactly?  

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yeh in fact lots of jews say it was the jews fault. apparently you have a problem with that too huh.

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apparently they need to ask you for divine guidance.

So you think the "Orthodox Rabbis" are extremists because they do not fall into your preconceived little box eh?

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Zionisn is NOT a religion

Dec 25, 2008 - 8 min
The truth about Zionism.
It is not a Jewish faith or religion.
It is terrorism.
These are thugs of the Middle East.

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Zionism is the state government of Israel that is back peddling to put themselves in a more respectable light by claiming they now somehow connected to judaism when everyone knows its pure bullshit. (well almost everyone)

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WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE...

[edited once again due to R0 block quoting to fill his empty posts with an appearance of substance]

so even jews want israel off the map.

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You brought up irrationality but I suggest you look in the mirror. Where have I been shown that the translations are faulty? I posted up a balanced article from a source that is generally well regarded, which took into account both sides of the argument and demonstrated the opposite and there has been no counter-factual source I was "shown".

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I don't need to hear one interview. I have heard and read quite a number of his interviews which go into some depth over the issue, and he makes largely the same points so your precious interview is unlikely to illuminate his stance much more. If you wish to address some points in the interview then I suggest you motivate your old self and post them up here instead of putting all the onus on myself to seek it out and try to guess what you wish to "discuss" (I use the word loosely).

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If you asked Hitler if he meant to harm Jews and he said "no" would you also accept his word?

Hitler's writtings were quite clear about his intentions about the jews and the russians.

That's not relevant, clearly I was positing a hypothetical.

Your hypothetical was shown to be full of shit so now it is not relevant...how convenient.

Do you actually know what a "hypothetical" is? Here is a definition http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypothetical - e.g. "Conditional; contingent." - I posited a hypothetical that if Hitler denied his malign intent toward Jews, would Icarys then believe him? It matters not a jot what Hitler said in reality with this posit. because it was a hypothetical.

BTW you continually treat the views of others with contempt on this forum with your very evident "attitude" but how about showing a bit of restraint toning down the language?

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Really, what facts have you backed up here except to cite an interview that you didn't even post a link to?

Would you like someone to hold your hand for you? If you are not capable of going to google and looking up the interview then why are you even in this discussion?

I have posted to a goodly number of articles and clips which you dismissed with contempt so any facts others cite which don't agree with your world-view are entirely wasted on you.



You have cited opinion not fact. You may value opinion but I value facts.


Others are entitled to come to conclusions based on the evidence they have, even if the conclusions do not suit you.


The conclusions you or anyone else take from opinion are subject to logical attack, dont you think?

I think the problem comes down to your ego and intolerence of anyone else's view but your own.

No it is my intolerance of willful ignorance supported driven by blind faith in opinion and not my ego that is the problem.

Want evidence of my like "opinion"? Pretty much every post you put up where you take a stance of "oh thats just YOUR opinion".


When the facts contradict to your opinion, where does that leave your opinion?

Show some decency, your views are not inherently better than others.

When the facts suport my opinion then it is inherently better than others.

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too!

Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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You brought up irrationality but I suggest you look in the mirror. Where have I been shown that the translations are faulty? I posted up a balanced article from a source that is generally well regarded, which took into account both sides of the argument and demonstrated the opposite and there has been no counter-factual source I was "shown".

Your translations are called to question by the interview on 60 minutes which you disagree with but refuse to view.
How logical is it to disagree with something you have not heard?

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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I don't need to hear one interview. I have heard and read quite a number of his interviews which go into some depth over the issue, and he makes largely the same points so your precious interview is unlikely to illuminate his stance much more. If you wish to address some points in the interview then I suggest you motivate your old self and post them up here instead of putting all the onus on myself to seek it out and try to guess what you wish to "discuss" (I use the word loosely).

I would like to discuss the 60 minutes interview that deals with the translation of what the president of iran said.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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If you asked Hitler if he meant to harm Jews and he said "no" would you also accept his word?

Hitler's writtings were quite clear about his intentions about the jews and the russians.

That's not relevant, clearly I was positing a hypothetical.

Your hypothetical was shown to be full of shit so now it is not relevant...how convenient.

Do you actually know what a "hypothetical" is? Here is a definition http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hypothetical - e.g. "Conditional; contingent." - I posited a hypothetical that if Hitler denied his malign intent toward Jews, would Icarys then believe him? It matters not a jot what Hitler said in reality with this posit. because it was a hypothetical.

BTW you continually treat the views of others with contempt on this forum with your very evident "attitude" but how about showing a bit of restraint toning down the language?

You posted a bullshit question and got a straight logical truthfull answer that did not agree with what you want to believe..and now you would like me to show some restraint in pointing out your failure in both logic and facts...don't hold your breath on that one.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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Really, what facts have you backed up here except to cite an interview that you didn't even post a link to?

Would you like someone to hold your hand for you? If you are not capable of going to google and looking up the interview then why are you even in this discussion?

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I have posted to a goodly number of articles and clips which you dismissed with contempt so any facts others cite which don't agree with your world-view are entirely wasted on you.

You said you failed

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You have cited opinion not fact. You may value opinion but I value facts.

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Others are entitled to come to conclusions based on the evidence they have, even if the conclusions do not suit you.

The conclusions you or anyone else take from opinion are subject to logical attack, dont you think?

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I think the problem comes down to your ego and intolerence of anyone else's view but your own.

No it is my intolerance of willful ignorance supported driven by blind faith in opinion and not my ego that is the problem.

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Want evidence of my like "opinion"? Pretty much every post you put up where you take a stance of "oh thats just YOUR opinion".

When the facts contradict to your opinion, where does that leave your opinion?

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Show some decency, your views are not inherently better than others.

When the facts suport my opinion then it is inherently better than others.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Let me see if I understand this correctly?
If a country would like to have nuclear power it must buy that technology from someone who does have it because if a country tries to develop it by themselves they are terrorist and can be stoped by any means necessary?
Is that about it?

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too!

Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors.

I am obfuscating?

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First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community".

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I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Ama Dinna has also used similarly apocalyptic war-like language since that article against Israel and to a lesser extent the US such as http://www.iranfocus.com/en/?option=com_content&task=view&id=7885 in 2006

Although the headline editorializes, "Ahmadinejad: World will soon witness the demise of Israel," the actual quote it cites states:

In the near future we will witness the rapid collapse of the Zionist regime”, Ahmadinejad told a crowd in the north-western city of Jolfa.

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
http://sms.islamweb.net/emainpage/printarticle.php?id=146881&lang=E at a UN speech in 2008 calling Israel a cesspool on a definite slope of collapse,

Again, the use of "Israel" is editorializing:

"The Zionist regime is on a definite slope to collapse, and there is no way for it to get out of the cesspool created by itself and its supporters," he told delegates.

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too!

Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors.

I am obfuscating?

Yes you are, and you do so repeatedly.

On the contrary you duck under anything you can to change the focus of my statements to fit your never ending army of strawmen.

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First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community".

The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of.

Again you move those goal posts out of focus.  I suppose thats my fault. LOL

Jewish faith refers to "judaism" not zionism.   I hope that clears it up.

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I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community.

Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938.

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Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

in 2010 stating that Iran has a plan to alter the world order http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4386.htm whilst claiming the Jews only appear to be human

There is no reference to Jews (as a people) in his quoted remarks. The source is editorializing. He is talking about the Zionists.

"...Sixty years ago, they [i.e. the West] gathered the filthiest and greatest of criminals, who [only] appear to be human [i.e. the Jews] from all the corners of the earth, organized and armed them – on artificial and false pretexts, fabricating information and inventing stories [hinting at the Holocaust]. They gave [the Jews] propaganda and military backing so that they would occupy the lands of Palestine and uproot the Palestinian nation..."

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
You claimed they were representative of the Jewish faith when they are anything but when you stated "Seems Orthodox Rabbis want Isreal off the map too!

Once again the Neturei Karta are not representative of the Orthodox Jewish community. In fact they are reviled by many http://www.urielheilman.com/nkarta.html as traitors.

I am obfuscating?

Yes you are, and you do so repeatedly.

On the contrary you duck under anything you can to change the focus of my statements to fit your never ending army of strawmen.

quote:

quote:


First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community".

The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of.

Again you move those goal posts out of focus.  I suppose thats my fault. LOL

Jewish faith refers to "judaism" not zionism.   I hope that clears it up.

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quote:

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I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community.

Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938.

apparently I am considerably more an expert than you are.  The NK follow the dictates of their religion.  Its the same way with any religion, some follow the word others stray and yet they all accept the same label.  The NK just happens to be correct.  Feel free to show where their take is religiously incorrect. 

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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

On the contrary you duck under anything you can to change the focus of my statements to fit your never ending army of strawmen.

quote:

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First you correctly said "faith" then you move the goal posts to conflate it with "community".

The Jewish faith and Jewish community are largely interchangeable in this case because people being part of the "Orthodox Jewish community" implies they are faithful just as one would say the same about a member of another religious community. Besides which you made out the Neturei Karta were representative of Jews generally which is wrong. End of.

Again you move those goal posts out of focus.  I suppose thats my fault. LOL

Jewish faith refers to "judaism" not zionism.   I hope that clears it up.

quote:

quote:

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I am sure the faithful are traitors to the zionist state community.

Ah so now you R0 are an expert on Jewish theology by stating that the Neturei Karta are true faithful Jews whilst the vast majority of the rest of the Jews out there who accept Zionism are not? You really are a funny chap aren't you? The NK have their own take on what it means to be Jewish, which even a majority of other orthodox Jews reject. That is much of the reason why they are at the periphery of Judaism and a tiny minority, even though they are great at publicising themselves and have existed since 1938.

apparently I am considerably more an expert than you are.  The NK follow the dictates of their religion.  Its the same way with any religion, some follow the word others stray and yet they all accept the same label.  The NK just happens to be correct.  Feel free to show where their take is religiously incorrect.