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Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 7:41:06 PM   
fergus


Posts: 1110
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Okay, this is NOT a thread about belief, it is merely a thread about terms and how they are used.  Just an educational one.

First ... let me say that words are NOT black and white, they convey concepts.  Some words (concepts) seem more clear between two people than others.  Words that relate spiritual concepts are usually WIDELY varied.

PAGAN - originally from the latin Paganus meaning something similar to "bumpkin".  Those in Rome were up to date with the latest fashions.  Those who lived in the provinces were pagani - or 'rednecks'.  When Christianity became all the rage in Rome, it was in the provinces where they had not heard of the new religion yet, or that it had become fashionable, or official ... the pagani - or 'hayseeds' were following the old gods.

Today - pagan has gone trough many transformations over the years.  It has been applied loosly to everything from Roman bumpkin to non-Christina (even Hindus and Muslims).  Today, it is most often applied to one who is a non-Abrahamic follower of many dieties in the pantheistic or polytheistic sense.  Often with a European influence.

HEATHEN - Same as bumpkin, only it is a word of northern origin and means people of the heath.  That is, those who lived away from towns in Dark ages Europe.

TODAY - Heathen is most accuratly applied to those who follow a European polytheistic faith that traces its roots from NON-helenistic practices (i.e. NOT Greco-Roman).  Asatru are an example of this and get quite offended when you call them "pagans" ;)

Witch - This one has been differently applied all through history - and has always had a connotation running from negative to neutral.  Before the witch trials, a witch was someone who practiced sorcery, divination, etc.  During the witcchtrials running roughly from 1450-1700, practicing divination and sorcery and such did NOT make you a witch (though it didn't look good for your case!) - making a pact with the devil for power is what made one a witch.  These days, that is refered to as hertical witchcraft.  Interesting side note - BEFORE the witch trials, it was considered heresey to believe witchcraft existed..  DURING the witch trials is was considered heresy to believe that witchcraft DIDN'T exist.  By the way, many modern pagans fall into the trap of self-victimization by perpetuating false information (unknowlingly) about the time of the witch trials.  They use inflated numbers and inccorrect facts as a rallying cry against the atrocity that modern pagans really have no real conecction with.

Today - "Witch" is best applied to someone who practices folk magic (i.e. witchcraft) regardless of what their religion is.

WICCAN - this one is easy.  Wicca is a specific faith with a traceable histlry to Gerald Gardner (founder, and kook).  Even a LITTLE bit of good research into Gardner and Doreen Valiente will reveal much about Wicca's early history.  Anyway, a Wiccan is someone who practices Wicca ... that is to say, they believe in divinity in the make and female form - either pantheist or polytheist.  They follow the Wiccan Rede - An it harm none, do as ye will (if it dosn't harm anyone, then what you do by your will is alright).  They practice witchcraft.  And celebrate the cycles of the season.  Certain Wiccan Traditions have more specific teachings.

DRUID - the Priestly class of the Ancient Celts.  Much is supposed, and not alot known about the ancient druids.  There is ALL SORTS of info on the net and in the book stores.  Have at it ;)

Today - Still a pagan Priest with a stron Celtic vein.  Modern Druidry has a showdy past that can go as far back as the masonic orders - though true connection to antiquity is HIGHLY unlikely.  Modern Druidry in America starts with Isaac Bonewits in the 1960 and the organization he founded - ADF http://www.adf.org/core/

These beliefs may or may not be yours ... and I am NOT posting for the purposes of converting people or convincing them of one thing or another.  Only what it is.

Good luck, and happy reading,
fergus

p.s. religion is like farts.  Your own are okay, everyone else's stinks
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 8:39:53 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline 		Three words almost every pagan knows:
Big Blue Book

Beyond that, what are you talking about Fergus?? You're not actually implying that neo-pagans have no real connection to the Burning Times, are you? Wait a minute ... you are ... aren't you ....

*points and screams* HERETIC!!!!!!!



*meow*

(in reply to fergus)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 8:45:04 PM   
fergus


Posts: 1110
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		*sigh* "the burning times"

I think it is FINE when my feloow pagans say "Never again the burning times!" .... but of course, I interject with "never again, the holocust, ethnic cleansing, Christians to the lions, Chinese oppression of Tibet, England out of Ireland!" and any other human atrocities I can think of.

I think the witch trials are a black mark on the human experience.  SO, too are all of these other things.  And modern pagans probably have more real connection with the latter!

fergus

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 8:55:39 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus

*sigh* "the burning times"

I think it is FINE when my feloow pagans say "Never again the burning times!" .... but of course, I interject with "never again, the holocust, ethnic cleansing, Christians to the lions, Chinese oppression of Tibet, England out of Ireland!" and any other human atrocities I can think of.

I think the witch trials are a black mark on the human experience.  SO, too are all of these other things.  And modern pagans probably have more real connection with the latter!

fergus


I absolutely agree. You, NakedOnMyChin and a number of others here on CM have reaffirmed my faith in the segment of humanity that call themselves "pagan". For a while there I was starting to believe almost all of paganism had completely fallen to the madness of the Burning Times, "real" Druidism(1) and a Wicca that is thousands of years of old. Now I just believe it's most of paganism. ;)

*meow*

(1) By all things holy, if it's a faithful reconstruction of "real" Druidism where are the wickermen?? *claps his hands* Come on guys, get those people and animals inside those wicker giants, we've got a fire to start and we're already behind schedule!!

(in reply to fergus)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 8:59:40 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		A couple of points... the Wiccan rede was "do as ye will is the whole of the law"... the 'harm none' bit is latter day PR spin doctoring.

And just as mainstream religions have to bear the cross of their kookier adherents, no mention of neo-paganism would be complete without talking about the lovely Wodinists and other white supremacist notions in priest's clothing.

People are people and carrying around a different book, icon, or scrap of cloth is not going to change a damn thing about the way they act.



(in reply to fergus)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 8:59:54 PM   
Medusinae


Posts: 2
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		I identify with several of these terms - plus several others - but will add that YOUR definitions are not necessarily my views.

I do follow an eclectic tradition of Wicca; I am a witch, a Reiki Master, an intuitive reader, an animal whisperer and many other non-defined titles. I have a great circle of friends in which my role is ever-changing.

I am also a dominant female in this life. Being connected to one's spiritual life does not mean that one cannot be involved in BDSM. For me, it is an enhancement...

~M

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:09:08 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

A couple of points... the Wiccan rede was "do as ye will is the whole of the law"... the 'harm none' bit is latter day PR spin doctoring.

And just as mainstream religions have to bear the cross of their kookier adherents, no mention of neo-paganism would be complete without talking about the lovely Wodinists and other white supremacist notions in priest's clothing.

People are people and carrying around a different book, icon, or scrap of cloth is not going to change a damn thing about the way they act.



The Rede as originally published includes the "an it harm none" as far as I'm aware. It was Crowley's maxim that stated "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". (Love is the Law, Love under Will.) At least as far as I've understood it. Where did you draw your information from?

On the Wodinists, we agree. Some of the scariest damn people I've met in my life!

*meow*


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:24:39 PM   
FaerieDragon1110


Posts: 1
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Medusinae, well said. I am a Dome Female also in this life and many in past ones to. I am also a Reiki master, healer/shawman (training) I have studied many ways. I have friends that are in many beliefs and yes it is an enhancement to my life and others I'm close friends with. FaerieDragon

(in reply to Medusinae)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:35:36 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

Three words almost every pagan knows:
Big Blue Book

Beyond that, what are you talking about Fergus?? You're not actually implying that neo-pagans have no real connection to the Burning Times, are you? Wait a minute ... you are ... aren't you ....

*points and screams* HERETIC!!!!!!!



*meow*


Hehehehe.  I think you and Fergus will get a kick out of this.  It's from my favorite webcomic...

http://somethingpositive.net/sp04242002.shtml

(Disclaimer:  The webcomic is evil, cynical and wonderful.  You've been warned.)

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:37:26 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


quote:

ORIGINAL: fergus

*sigh* "the burning times"

I think it is FINE when my feloow pagans say "Never again the burning times!" .... but of course, I interject with "never again, the holocust, ethnic cleansing, Christians to the lions, Chinese oppression of Tibet, England out of Ireland!" and any other human atrocities I can think of.

I think the witch trials are a black mark on the human experience.  SO, too are all of these other things.  And modern pagans probably have more real connection with the latter!

fergus


I absolutely agree. You, NakedOnMyChin and a number of others here on CM have reaffirmed my faith in the segment of humanity that call themselves "pagan". For a while there I was starting to believe almost all of paganism had completely fallen to the madness of the Burning Times, "real" Druidism(1) and a Wicca that is thousands of years of old. Now I just believe it's most of paganism. ;)

*meow*

(1) By all things holy, if it's a faithful reconstruction of "real" Druidism where are the wickermen?? *claps his hands* Come on guys, get those people and animals inside those wicker giants, we've got a fire to start and we're already behind schedule!!


  Thanks!  Who knew I was a positive influence?  LOL.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:46:29 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom

Three words almost every pagan knows:
Big Blue Book

Beyond that, what are you talking about Fergus?? You're not actually implying that neo-pagans have no real connection to the Burning Times, are you? Wait a minute ... you are ... aren't you ....

*points and screams* HERETIC!!!!!!!



*meow*


Hehehehe.  I think you and Fergus will get a kick out of this.  It's from my favorite webcomic...

http://somethingpositive.net/sp04242002.shtml

(Disclaimer:  The webcomic is evil, cynical and wonderful.  You've been warned.)


YAY!!!! Something Positive is SO good! I don't think I'd read that one yet either!

Ever read Sexy Losers? (Now there is a truly depraved webcomic)

*meow*

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:50:29 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		An excellent article that references the history of the modern Pagan movement (or more to the point, something of the lack thereof) is here: http://www.godspy.com/culture/The-Scholars-and-the-Goddess.cfm

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 9:51:21 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I don't think I have.  I'll have to check it out.  I'm a big fan of Striptease, too. 

www.stripteasecomic.com

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 10:04:07 PM   
Demspotis


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		One of my standard definitions of both "pagan" and "heathen" is "an adherent of any religion that does not set itself apart from the rest of humanity (the rest being defined as infidel, pagan, etc.), nor condemn all others." In other words, in this defintion "pagan" is the norm and mainstream of humanity, in contrast to those religions that claim some exclusive hold on truth, and/or absolute superiority over other people and religions.

There are other valid definitions, including those given by the previous posters.

Are "Hindus" (more properly Sanatana-dharmis) "pagan"? Some Hindus reject the label on either or both of these grounds: its pejorative connotation when used by fanatics, or the assumption that pagan = polytheist. While Hinduism has many Gods, it also has a clear and ancient tradition of a transcendent Supreme Being.

On the other hand, more and more Hindus are now becoming aware that their civilization and religion are closely related to the true "pagan" heritage of most Europeans, and therefore now recognize the relationship, and may accept the label in that connection. Most of the peoples of India and Europe, their languages and their original religions and cultures together, by definition, form the Indo-European family. In fact, some Hindu leaders have during the last decade taken prominent and leading roles in various unity movements, both between Indian and European "pagans" and unity movements among all indigenous and traditional religions (that is excluding the fanatics). The magazine "Hinduism Today" has had several articles on the connections between the Indian and European religions over the last few years, and several years ago an Indian magazine named "Bharatiya Pragna" had a theme issue of comparison between them, featuring both Hindu and Pagan writers.

(in reply to Medusinae)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 5/31/2006 10:09:33 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

An excellent article that references the history of the modern Pagan movement (or more to the point, something of the lack thereof) is here: http://www.godspy.com/culture/The-Scholars-and-the-Goddess.cfm



Wow thank you! Fantastic link! I'm already engrossed in reading it. :)

*meow*

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 6:23:46 AM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		What?! Pagans Heathens Witches?!

Bubba get the cross and the gasoline!!! *puts on his klan robe*

(in reply to fergus)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 6:41:06 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


The Rede as originally published includes the "an it harm none" as far as I'm aware. It was Crowley's maxim that stated "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". (Love is the Law, Love under Will.) At least as far as I've understood it. Where did you draw your information from?

On the Wodinists, we agree. Some of the scariest damn people I've met in my life!

*meow*


Crowley sold Gardner the whole 'Order of the Golden Dawn' shell game, which he adopted with some revisions... there are some interesting theories as to who wrote or borrowed what and when....  

But the several Wiccans I knew in the early to mid '60s were still reciting the rede without the 'an it harm none'.  

Not to say that those Wiccans spoke for everyone, or were even correct, just that there was a period of time where the lines were quite blurred within the community.... and the current version of the rede doesn't seem to have coalesced until the mid 70s.









< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/1/2006 6:42:08 AM >

(in reply to ArtCatDom)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 6:47:09 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		Well said, Fergus!

I'm ashamed to say that my first departure from Christianity was into foofy Neo-Wicca, "take what you like discard the rest" type paganism. Still, I learned.


_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 7:25:19 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom


The Rede as originally published includes the "an it harm none" as far as I'm aware. It was Crowley's maxim that stated "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". (Love is the Law, Love under Will.) At least as far as I've understood it. Where did you draw your information from?

On the Wodinists, we agree. Some of the scariest damn people I've met in my life!

*meow*


Crowley sold Gardner the whole 'Order of the Golden Dawn' shell game, which he adopted with some revisions... there are some interesting theories as to who wrote or borrowed what and when....  

But the several Wiccans I knew in the early to mid '60s were still reciting the rede without the 'an it harm none'.  

Not to say that those Wiccans spoke for everyone, or were even correct, just that there was a period of time where the lines were quite blurred within the community.... and the current version of the rede doesn't seem to have coalesced until the mid 70s.



Thank you for the info, it is sincerely appreciated. The first hand account is welcomed.

From the literary account, I know Gardner put forth "harm none" in the Old Laws during the fifties. It's also been often repeated that the fulfillment couplet was first put forth by Valiente during the 60s. Do you know much about either? I'd be especially interested if you knew anything about about the claim that Valiente was the first to (at least publicly) put forth the famous eight word verse.

*meow*

P.S. Do you know much about Gardner's membership/involvement in the OTO?


< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 6/1/2006 7:26:22 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
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RE: Pagan, heathen, witch, Wiccan, Druid - 6/1/2006 7:36:13 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
A couple of points... the Wiccan rede was "do as ye will is the whole of the law"... the 'harm none' bit is latter day PR spin doctoring.


Do try not to state your opinion as a statement of fact, especialy when it is wrong.

Crowley coined the "Do as ye will shalt be the whole of the law", However he wasn't Wiccan. The harm none has been part of it since it was first used as the rede in a Wiccan context.




< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 6/1/2006 7:39:18 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 20
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