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RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 11:41:46 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You simply believe it through blind faith or dump it.

I am sure that there are some people who do believe with what you call 'blind faith'.. However I would suggest that not all do. Just because christianity isn't 'your' choice - doesnt make the faith 'blind' and is no different than someone stating all of Gor as 'fake, online and non reality'... or BDSM as 'only full of abuse, abused and abusers'.

Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 41

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 11:42:38 AM

slavejlb

Posts: 446
Joined: 5/19/2006
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why can it not be both,? it is a book of history, a book of comfort, and one of the best self help books since the start of life.

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 42

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 11:50:48 AM

meatcleaver

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Christianity is a faith, being a faith implies it can't be proved to by imperical evidence which it can't. There is nothing derogatory in the statement that you believe in it through blind faith because that is precisely what believers of any religion does.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/1/2006 11:51:29 AM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 43

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 11:54:51 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Blind faith denotes that nothing is tested.

As a christian, I test. It is in me to do that. Now, You may not see the result as 'scientific' but there are plenty of tests in everyday life that cannot be attributed to science. Doesn't make it 'blind science'.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 44

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 12:07:14 PM

pup75

Posts: 112
Joined: 5/1/2006
Status: offline

darkinshadows,

Please don't trouble yourself looking for the post. I appreciate the effort, but I think your perspective (and the first paragraph of meatcleaver's post after yours) underscores what I was saying, rather than contradicting it.

That said, if we step away from that passage and to another with a similar tack, I would apprciate your thoughts on it.

Acts 15:1-21 records an interesting meeting among the apostles in which they came to a similar conclusion about the laws of the Old Testament having been fulfilled and no longer necessary. They finish by deciding to "abstain from ... sexual immorality...." (Acts 15:20, some parts deleted to keep us on topic)

But they never define what constitutes sexual immorality. My guess would be that they would refer back to Old Testament guidelines on the subject, which would leave them to continue avoiding homosexuality, among other practices.

Finally, could you cite a reference indicating that the paralytic individual healed by Jesus was homosexual? I'm fascinated by that but have never seen it!

Thank you,

pup75

< Message edited by pup75 -- 6/1/2006 12:21:34 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 45

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 12:09:36 PM

ArtCatDom

Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
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I disgaree with "Paul" on his stance. However your assertion is absolutely incorrect. There are two greek words in 1 Corinthians 6:9 that mean homosexual (though one could be interpreted as a crossdresser or a male who prostitutes to men).

This first one is "malakos" which literally means soft. It is usually translated as effeminate, or a synonym. It is used outside the Bible in this context as well, usually for a underage male (slave) kept around for sex or for a male temple prostitute (who usually dressed in woman's clothes and wore makeup).

The other is much more direct, being the Greek word "arsenokoites" which just about literally means men who lie with men and is not used in any other context.

*meow*

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 46

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 12:13:28 PM

Littlepita

Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
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Do you think the bible is the word of God? Or a collection of peoples histories and parables? I believe the Bible is the word of God
Are you aware of how the bible was put together? The Bible is God’s letter to humanity collected into 66 books, written by 40 divinely inspired writers. These writers come from all walks of life (i.e., kings to fishermen) and spans over a period of 1,500 years or more.
Are you aware there are other versions? Yes
Do you consider it infallable?Yes
How do you reconcile what you know of the bible, with a faith in it? I don't understand this question, sorry.
What are your worst conflicts with biblical writings/laws, and how do you deal with them? I don't have any conflicts with it. I accept that it is right and therefore I believe it.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 47

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 12:20:43 PM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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Paul - ya love or loath Him.... either way there are certain struggles with His wording. However christianity isnt about Paul(yes, He was a writer of the words, but that is why blind faith doesnt come in, but faith and testing) Christianity is the teachings of Jesus. The old laws were completed through Him. Christians are specifically the diciples of christ - and followers of His teachings.

You are correct on the interpretation of malakos... however there are disagreements within the christian community and language scholars on what was specifically ment. As you have suggested, one malakos translated is 'soft' which indeed refered to the underage male. It is not clear whether this interprtation was in fact for the homosexual act... or the sexaul abuse of minors. So that said, as there is no agreement on the specific meaning it would be down to the teachings of Jesus himself and his behaviour towards homosexuals that would be the teaching and the example to follow. Words are not the be all and end all - actions speak louder than them.

Peace and Rapture

Edit to add I left out arsenokoites - its origianl meaning evolved from meaning 9thC 'perversion' and only became 'liers with men'(ie homosexual - and more precisely still.... practising homosexuals) around the 12thC . This was due to the fact that there is little known on this specific word, other than its occasional link wth malakos and was originally interpreted as one of the 'sins' from the OT. It is also carried that the word was associated with economic exploitation by the means of sex, and isnt specific to homosexual sex. As it has often been stated that arsenkoites and malakos are sepcific to male homosexuality, there is technically no mention of female homosexuality biblically at all if you take these two words in the context of your interpretation. So if homosexually (broadly)... is a 'sin' and against the teachings... why is there nothing specific to lesbien sex?

(btw, my typing sux today so ignore my typos)

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 6/1/2006 12:58:46 PM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ArtCatDom)

Post #: 48

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 12:24:52 PM

indybbwsubbie

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"Evidence that demands a verdict" is an excellent book! Also - "Kindgom of the Cults" by Dr. Walter Martin.

(in reply to zumala)

Post #: 49

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:10:53 PM

pinkee

Posts: 487
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

I'm curious.
Do you think the bible is the word of God? Or a collection of peoples histories and parables?

It is all of these.

quote:

Are you aware of how the bible was put together?

Yes

quote:

Are you aware there are other versions?

In a way, yes. Although I would not call them versions, rather interpretations and different languages.

quote:

Do you consider it infallable?

If one believes in the word of God to be infallable, then yes.

quote:

How do you reconcile what you know of the bible, with a faith in it?

My faith has nothing to do with the bible. It has to do with God.

quote:

What are your worst conflicts with biblical writings/laws, and how do you deal with them?

My disappointment at the mistreatment of the original texts and humans ability to make up words to fit their own agenda, instead of remain true to the original texts and all the books that exist.

and yes, I am a christian. I believe in the trinity. I believe in Gods Love and that Love is the core of the bible.
I also firmly believe that BDSM melds quite beautifully with my faith and my belief.

Peace and Rapture.

i am a Catholic. i was taught the Baltimore Catechism, not the Bible. ( And yes, there is a RCC version, which mutated over the centuries.)

The only book of the Bible i have read in its entirety is Psalms. Lovely work, for the most part, but not nearly as erotic as i had been led to believe. (What a perv, huh?)

i completely agree with dark -- i despise politicans, tv evangelists, the Religious Right, etc. and A/anyone else who uses the Bible to promote an agenda of discrimination or other evils.

pinkee

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 50

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:13:16 PM

pup75

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Joined: 5/1/2006
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Can anyone recommend objective, academic books on the history of the Bible and Christianity that's not written by anyone trying either to prove or disprove them?

(in reply to indybbwsubbie)

Post #: 51

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:19:18 PM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
A question to you.
If the bible did not exist. Christianity did not exist. Do you think, you would have found your " faith " anyway? Does it exist in you in some way apart from anything?
In a way, my so called faith does.

darkinshadows answered this question very similarly to how I would answer it. Prior to reading darkinshadows post, my thought was that Christianity existed prior to the Bible, by word of mouth. ie: Roman Times when the Christians were sent to the Collosieum to be killed.

quote:

darkinshadows:

I know this was not to me, but I have the desire to respond.
Christianity does not exist because of the bible. If the bible did not exist, if the words were not written down, then the teachings would be passed on a differnet way. Christianity exists because of the existance of christ. It is a system of beliefs based on the teachings of Jesus. The bible, technically, has nothing to do with christianity.

I also am unsure if that is the exact question you were asking of me, or if you were asking if Christianity and the Bible did not exist, would I Have faith in something else or be a woman of faith.
If that be your question, I can easily answer yes. I suspect I would be Jewish, simply because we share the same beginnings, with Christianity having it's foundation built upon Judiasm. < I know some here will disagree with that statement>. I am a firm believer that humanity and society need faith in something to live in relative harmony. There needs to be something to which we hold ourselves accountable, above ourselves or anarchy would reign.
Ahhh, but that is a discussion for another thread.

More personally, I cannot imagine a life without faith. For me, it would be a hopeless existance.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Kedikat)

Post #: 52

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:20:29 PM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
Status: offline

Hello pup...

Your question on what constitutes 'sexual immorality' in IMO and in the study I have done, purely subjective, even from a christian standpoint. As lame as it may sound - what is a immoral act? Morality is defined by society. And morality is the acceptance of ones own behaviour and conduct. Morality is relative to the situation one is involved in at that specific moment. Morality is subjective - one persons morals do not have to be in tune with anyone else, but it does have to sit with comfort on ones own personal feelings.

Therefore, a sexual perversion is subjective as well as subject to consensuality in all aspects. Having sex in the park with your husband isn't sexually immoral persay, but it could be if witness by someone who did not consent to see it occur. Is that act more or less 'immoral' than two women having sex in the privacy of their own home?

In Matthew 8... the centurion asked Jesus to cure 'servant' who lay paralyzed and in great agony. The centurion stated that all Jesus had to do was to say the right words to effect the cure. Jesus spoke of the centurions faith and told him to return, for he was healed.

From the greek the centurion refered to the boy as 'pais' which is a reference often used of a young male slave kept for sexual purposes by his owner. The word 'pais' was replaced by religious scholars to 'servant boy' to remove the sexual reference. (GofLuke interpretation is somewhat different as there is no specifics to the sick boys age or illness').

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to pup75)

Post #: 53

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:21:54 PM

ArtCatDom

Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
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I utterly agree that it's about faith as opposed to blind faith, or tested faith as opposed to legalistic words.

As for "arsenokoites", I'm not sure where you're deriving that information from but it is incorrect. The word derives from roots meaning man and conjugal bed/sexual relations. It is attested outside the Bible in Hellenic texts in the context of meaning "a man who has sex with men".

As for "malakos" you're absolutely right that due to it's associate with underage boys kept for sexual purposes it could be a condemnation of that specific practice, as opposed to the usage for men who are feminine (or harlots).

*meow*

EDIT: Sorry, I missed the point about lesbians. I really just think it's the nature of the beast when it comes to the Bible. For example, in the Old Testament there's plenty of prohibitions against hot man on man action, but the question of hot woman on woman action is barely touched or simply non-existant (depending on how you view a small handful of verses). All in all, I don't think the prohibition was so much on homosexuality as on homosexual men. I apologize for not making the distinction more clear, as I should have.

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 6/1/2006 1:26:20 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 54

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:22:16 PM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkee

[-- i despise politicans, tv evangelists, the Religious Right, etc. and A/anyone else who uses the Bible to promote an agenda of discrimination or other evils.

pinkee

Ohhh pinkee.... Hate the sin and love the sinner.

It's much easier that way.
mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to pinkee)

Post #: 55

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:23:44 PM

pinkee

Posts: 487
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Paul - ya love or loath Him.... either way there are certain struggles with His wording. However christianity isnt about Paul(yes, He was a writer of the words, but that is why blind faith doesnt come in, but faith and testing) Christianity is the teachings of Jesus. The old laws were completed through Him. Christians are specifically the diciples of christ - and followers of His teachings.

You are correct on the interpretation of malakos... however there are disagreements within the christian community and language scholars on what was specifically ment. As you have suggested, one malakos translated is 'soft' which indeed refered to the underage male. It is not clear whether this interprtation was in fact for the homosexual act... or the sexaul abuse of minors. So that said, as there is no agreement on the specific meaning it would be down to the teachings of Jesus himself and his behaviour towards homosexuals that would be the teaching and the example to follow. Words are not the be all and end all - actions speak louder than them.

Peace and Rapture

Edit to add I left out arsenokoites - its origianl meaning evolved from meaning 9thC 'perversion' and only became 'liers with men'(ie homosexual - and more precisely still.... practising homosexuals) around the 12thC . This was due to the fact that there is little known on this specific word, other than its occasional link wth malakos and was originally interpreted as one of the 'sins' from the OT. It is also carried that the word was associated with economic exploitation by the means of sex, and isnt specific to homosexual sex. As it has often been stated that arsenkoites and malakos are sepcific to male homosexuality, there is technically no mention of female homosexuality biblically at all if you take these two words in the context of your interpretation. So if homosexually (broadly)... is a 'sin' and against the teachings... why is there nothing specific to lesbien sex?
(btw, my typing sux today so ignore my typos)

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr. (1929 - 1968)

pinkee

< Message edited by pinkee -- 6/1/2006 1:25:52 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 56

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:33:46 PM

zumala

Posts: 1121
Joined: 6/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pup75

Can anyone recommend objective, academic books on the history of the Bible and Christianity that's not written by anyone trying either to prove or disprove them?

I doubt you'll find anything meeting that criteria, pup. Most people who would examine the Bible and history that closely don't do it for the sake of just doing it. Either that or once they're done examining and are ready to write their book, they've been swayed one way or the other. If I recall correctly McDowell, who wrote Evidence That Demands a Verdict, was originally researching to debunk Christianity and ended up a believer instead. So his book leans in that direction.

zuma

< Message edited by zumala -- 6/1/2006 1:34:51 PM >

(in reply to pup75)

Post #: 57

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:40:45 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

arsenokoites is also linked in texts elsewhere that has no mention of sexual perversion, but rather greed, cheating and the usage of 'foul mouthing'(whether that is meant to be swearing or gossip is up to debate).

Whilst a common understanding that malakos is 'soft' it is also common to define it as 'weak' - and with the association of arsenokoites especially in the tales of Zeus, it was defined of an agressor taking advantage of the 'weaker person' and by force - not by consent.

In the majority of cases that both arsenokoites and malakos are used, the acts are non consent and slavery. There is no specific relation to homosexuality - but more to the economic abuse of minors or weaker individuals.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ArtCatDom)

Post #: 58

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:46:42 PM

pup75

Posts: 112
Joined: 5/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Your question on what constitutes 'sexual immorality' in IMO and in the study I have done, purely subjective, even from a christian standpoint. As lame as it may sound - what is a immoral act? Morality is defined by society. And morality is the acceptance of ones own behaviour and conduct. Morality is relative to the situation one is involved in at that specific moment. Morality is subjective - one persons morals do not have to be in tune with anyone else, but it does have to sit with comfort on ones own personal feelings.
Therefore, a sexual perversion is subjective as well as subject to consensuality in all aspects. Having sex in the park with your husband isn't sexually immoral persay, but it could be if witness by someone who did not consent to see it occur. Is that act more or less 'immoral' than two women having sex in the privacy of their own home?

While that is how many define morality today, is that how the Apostles defined it when they were making this decision?

quote:

In Matthew 8... the centurion asked Jesus to cure 'servant' who lay paralyzed and in great agony. The centurion stated that all Jesus had to do was to say the right words to effect the cure. Jesus spoke of the centurions faith and told him to return, for he was healed.

From the greek the centurion refered to the boy as 'pais' which is a reference often used of a young male slave kept for sexual purposes by his owner. The word 'pais' was replaced by religious scholars to 'servant boy' to remove the sexual reference. (GofLuke interpretation is somewhat different as there is no specifics to the sick boys age or illness').

Fascinating! I did not know that!

pup75

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 59

RE: Biblical question to Biblical followers - 6/1/2006 1:57:58 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pup75

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Your question on what constitutes 'sexual immorality' in IMO and in the study I have done, purely subjective, even from a christian standpoint. As lame as it may sound - what is a immoral act? Morality is defined by society. And morality is the acceptance of ones own behaviour and conduct. Morality is relative to the situation one is involved in at that specific moment. Morality is subjective - one persons morals do not have to be in tune with anyone else, but it does have to sit with comfort on ones own personal feelings.
Therefore, a sexual perversion is subjective as well as subject to consensuality in all aspects. Having sex in the park with your husband isn't sexually immoral persay, but it could be if witness by someone who did not consent to see it occur. Is that act more or less 'immoral' than two women having sex in the privacy of their own home?

While that is how many define morality today, is that how the Apostles defined it when they were making this decision?

quote:

In Matthew 8... the centurion asked Jesus to cure 'servant' who lay paralyzed and in great agony. The centurion stated that all Jesus had to do was to say the right words to effect the cure. Jesus spoke of the centurions faith and told him to return, for he was healed.

From the greek the centurion refered to the boy as 'pais' which is a reference often used of a young male slave kept for sexual purposes by his owner. The word 'pais' was replaced by religious scholars to 'servant boy' to remove the sexual reference. (GofLuke interpretation is somewhat different as there is no specifics to the sick boys age or illness').

Fascinating! I did not know that!

pup75

Maybe they didn't know? I believe they were well aware of the change of circumstances and that civilisations evolve and understood the concept of one on one relationship wth God more than the biblical 'scholars' have tried to interpret for everyone. And one should always remember that whilst the church exists and is a huge part of christianity - it isnt the be and end all.. Christianity is the teachings of Jesus - its a personal relationship with the living God. It is about being true to oneself and being responsible for ones actions...whilst fixed upon God... about being self aware... being environmentally conscious and aware of others - to be loving and to be loved. It isnt about what other people expect or want from you - its the truth of yourself for yourself with your God.

(OK...harking back to BDSM relationships again - kinda ring a bell?)

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to pup75)

Post #: 60

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