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RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 9:17:01 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

Yup, you bring up the thing I stumbled on, Merc, Sir. HOW did she find out?

Honesty IS a two-way street... <shrugs> But, perhaps she found out innocently enough. I discovered one I'd 'been with' for nearly a year was actually married...a huge shock to me! I'd told him I firmly believe in doing background checks...so HOW he figured he was gonna get away with this is beyond me. But, after we'd been together (in the biblical sense...lol) for over six months and he'd met all my friends and said he was planning on moving here, I did the check. bingo...

What I don't undersand is WHY the girl is asking for advice? It is apparent she has moved on; who cares what the idiot thinks or says at this point?

BTW... good (current) thread regarding that myth thingie that BDSMers are above reproach: http://www.collarchat.com/m_401184/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#401269

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 21

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 10:30:33 AM

MasterGentry

Posts: 14
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

If he's less than you thought, I see no reason to continue in a relationship that's tainted and will niggle at your consciousness on a continuing basis.
I've encountered the players in every aspect of My chosen lifestyle, and those that thump their chests and pronounce themselves the most honourable among us are usually those that have ulterior motives for trying to convience others of their magnifience.
If you have no use for a poly- relationship and its many benefits, I'd say move on and see if you can discover that "perfect" One amongst the debri of lifes offerings.
Gentry

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

Wulf..great idea...and I think it's time for my pic to go up as well...(smiles...what have I got to hide? Nothing!) My profile isn't filled out yet, but you've inspired me! (Time for this sub to take control of finding someone worthy, right?)

(in reply to irishbynature)

Post #: 22

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 10:35:25 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

But, perhaps she found out innocently enough.

Bearlee,
The "innocent" manner wasn't the point. Full and complete honesty isn't limited to disclosure of feelings and personal knowledge. It's more critical to disclose concerns.

Every so often a thread is posted regarding a Master or Dom not "understanding" what the sub/slave is going through. After a few pages of banter the consensus arrived is; the Dom/Master is NOT a mind reader. Although in this case, assuming that all the information is 100% factual and accurate, I can't envision the Dom in question being 'innocent'. However, for the sake of this point, lets stipulate that he is. The 'relationship' is still dead, but the 'murderer' is the submissive. Why? Because her 'innocent' discovery indicates to the Dom she doesn't trust him. And, more destructive, she didn't disclose and discuss with him what she had found as soon as it was possible and convenient to do so. Complete honesty is includes that depth of disclosure.

The consequences will be what they will. If you want to know the major reason why I believe people, allegedly in a 'relationship', can sit in a room for hours at a time and prefer to watch a re-run on TV versus have a discussion with each other? It's because every time they get ready to open their mouth to initiate a conversation they consider all the lies of omission they are guilty of or have been victim. Resentment builds and, like cancer, kills. When people have to qualify their conversation within a relationship to consider whether what they say will end the relationship; the relationship will someday evolve to one where they sit in the dark, together but alone, watching TV reruns. Ironically each may be thinking to themselves "what happened?".

"What happened"? "Good intentions" happened. The; "Its not 'really' important so I won't bring it up" thought is the first cancer cell. If you've never said to your partner; "Look, this is bothering me, and it may make you upset but we have to discuss (fill in the blank)." I'd take the position that you may have a relationship subject to long term failure.

I call the process being "naked" more than skin deep. Sometime being 'naked' isn't easy. Long term - it's essential.

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 23

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 10:48:01 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
can sit in a room for hours at a time and prefer to watch a re-run on TV versus have a discussion with each other?

Or they are pop-culture junkies who have a hankering for a particular season of episodes...not that, you know, I'm like that or anything.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 24

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 11:28:36 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

I can only imagine how many emails you get like the one I'm posting.
Obviously, my story very much the same as some I've just read.

I began submitting to a Dominant. The hard limits: One-on-one relationship and honesty. Meaning, he would tell me if he wanted something or someone else.

He bought me a cell phone so he could have access to me at all times. He was always a gentleman. Always kind. Claimed he had "found what he was looking for and stopped his search!"

I submitted more of my body, mind and soul...out of affection and caring. He called daily, we saw eachother twice a week most of the time...5 months.

He would tell me, "I'm thinking of you way too much...I miss you, I need you....I adore you...."

Last night, I discovered...he was secretly seeking more subs/playmates. He has NO idea I discovered this. I was shocked, hurt, and anyother kind of emotion one can think of came over me.

I asked him shortly after..."Are you needing to move on ....?" He replied, "What are YOU doing up so late?" He WILL NOT ANSWER MY question.....which is "DO YOU NEED TO MOVE ON??"

Why can't he just say, "Yeah, I need more...move on, release, go..."???

What do you respond when you've submitted your affection, loyality and body to a Master who won't be honest with you?

In short, learn.

"I'm thinking of you way too much...I miss you, I need you....I adore you...." is either manipulation or a serious warning signal that this "Master" isn't in control of himself. In a word: pathetic.

(in reply to irishbynature)

Post #: 25

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 2:52:32 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

A slightly different direction. While I agree with almost everything posted about the OP's issue, this from Mercnbeth really drew Me up short:

quote:

It's impossible to go back. There was a thread regarding how to go about re-establishing trust; the answer is you don't - you can't. You'll have a better chance ripping open a feather pillow in the winds of Chicago and chasing and collecting every single one and sewing them back up in the case.

Honesty and trust are 'one time use only' assets. Based upon what you presented it appears your dom spent his. But you have as well. "Move on?" Emotionally you already have done so. Your "shock, hurt, and other emotions" are indications that mentally you won't be able to submit your "affection, loyalty" in the same manner. The question becomes one of the "body".

Wow. My first thought is "Do you really believe that?" but from what I've seen, mercnbeth are serious, thoughtful folk and don't post what they don't live. My only comment is to shake My head, then, and say that I live in a world where forgiveness is tough, but it happens. I know, I've lived it. I think you can establish trust once it has been broken -- it takes a huge commitment on both sides, a desire to build (or rebuild) something you believe is good, and it takes something in rare supply in this world: love. (It also takes the ability to say "I was/am wrong." Something We Dominants (and many subs) don't do very well.)

I am NOT advocating that the O.P. accept the infidelity she has discovered. I'm just saying that I want to offer a counterbalance to the world view that there is only one shot at trust, and if you break it, you lose it. That is sadly usually true, but not always.

E. (gee, who knew I'd feel like a fluffy bunny on this Board some day?)

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 26

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 4:09:47 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TolerableCruelty

brutal honesty is always the best policy in My book...

simply tell him that you've found out that he's been talking to and/or seeking others... and that you're either A) comfortable with that and could try a poly relationship or B) not comfortable with that and want a monogamous relationship.

regardless of what any "dom" or "master" tells you... you hold the power in the relationship, girl... slavery and submissiveness is consentual, not forced, and if he's playing with your emotions and mind... then he's obviously not a big enough man to be a real master to you, and you should cut your losses and move on.

at least thats My opinion, and thats what I would do in your shoes.

T.R.

Good advice, here.

(in reply to TolerableCruelty)

Post #: 27

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 5:19:38 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Wow. My first thought is "Do you really believe that?" but from what I've seen, mercnbeth are serious, thoughtful folk and don't post what they don't live. My only comment is to shake My head, then, and say that I live in a world where forgiveness is tough, but it happens.

Emperor,

Yes - we BOTH believe that honesty and trust are 'one time use only' assets. You may be offered a glimmer of difference from beth, but I'm working on eliminating it. One of the reasons we feel that way about each other is that there is no conceivable reason or occasion where the issue could come up.

Recently we were discussing the subject of infidelity. beth's position is that it would be impossible for me to 'cheat' on her. The reason behind this is that beth sees herself my slave in every way. she is my possession I'm not hers. Under that logic how can I, as her Master, 'cheat'? Neither of us have jealousy. It is my decision who, and if, I share her. I could no more be jealous of offering her as a gift than any other possession I chose to give.

The reason for our position is simple. We both are confident in the part of us that we don't share with anyone; the emotional, and mental feelings we have for each other. beth would add 'spiritual' but she's the spiritual one.

Also, we aren't talking about 'mistakes'. Trust and honesty aren't about petty forgetfulness or physical pratfall. Basically we're talking about a requirement of each other knowing about a issue we have prior to anyone else, addressing it, and moving on. I have ultimate decision making responsibility but that responsibility is to do what is best the relationship. Notice it wasn't 'authority' to make decisions, it was a 'responsibility'. The 'authority' rests in our contract. If I don't live up to the responsibilities documented, I have 'spent' my trust.

In those threads started by 'doms', 'masters', 'slaves', and 'subs' who ask how to deal with something the other has said and/or done; I'd say any answer is problematic. If you're asking anyone other than the person who is directly involved you're relationship is on shaky ground. This isn't speaking to any technique or skill, it's addressing stuff like "Why does my Master spank his beta slave harder than me?" If beth asked that question, she would never have to be concerned how hard she would be spanked by me ever again.

quote:

I think you can establish trust once it has been broken -- it takes a huge commitment on both sides,

I think it takes a huge commitment to establish trust. I don't see how it's possible to make that a similar commitment again and get to a point of unqualified trust once you've 'spent' it. There is no room for doubt. Personally I do not have the ability to eliminate doubt with a person who I trusted and broke that trust. I don't keep that a secret with anyone in my life, and I don't consider it a personal weakness or strength.

beth and our relationship is the most important thing in my life. If I didn't feel that strongly about the level of integrity necessary or had any doubt, that statement would not have any value. It should be so painful to consider the alternative that you do anything necessary to preserve it.

Break it and you may be able to put it back together, but like a Ming vase you'll always have flaws. Maybe someone else won't see them, but you'll know they are there. I'd resent looking at it, because all I would see would be the flaws. Knowing and living by the 'one use only' rule keeps the relationship in the category of 'priceless'. It is irreplaceable. I like it that way.

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 28

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 6:32:13 PM

xxmstrchasxx

Posts: 423
Joined: 5/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I think you can establish trust once it has been broken -- it takes a huge commitment on both sides, a desire to build (or rebuild) something you believe is good, and it takes something in rare supply in this world: love. (It also takes the ability to say "I was/am wrong." Something We Dominants (and many subs) don't do very well.)

I think you can establish trust again over a long period of time but I'm not sure it will ever be the 100% trust you had before it was broken to begin with.

I have to agree with Merc & beth.

_____________________________

XxMasterChasxX

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 29

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 7:19:46 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

mernbeth,

I respectfully disagree, trust CAN be reestablished. I know many people that have been able to do so... For one my sister and her hubby faced a major break in trust over 12 years ago in their 20 year marriage.. it is not easy to reestablish trust, but depending on how much the relationship means and the reasons that trust was broken is a deciding factor. Believe it or not, it CAN make a relationship closer to come back from the brink... it can make the people involved value the relationship all the more....Just what I have seen in my time on planet Earth

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 30

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 7:37:47 PM

irishbynature

Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline

Back again...me, Irish..

I've read the posts....fantastic advice all around. I certainly respect everyone's thoughts. Thanks for being great, open-minded individuals~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 31

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 7:44:48 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Dear irishbynature, Ladies and Gentlemen;

There are always two sides of the story. However, I will say that when I had a slave, I shared what activities I was doing, as it dealt with other slaves and or submissives. I am always helpful, enjoy education and mentoring and, looking as to see if anybody comes to my attention that might fit the bill of what other dominants and or submissives are looking for, in a networking sort of way.

Unless "we" as a group of outsiders know what the intent is, it is only with the assumption that we're subjected to work from.

I am wondering (outloud in the post format) if he was looking for additional playmates as to due a multiple scene but; does not always need to imply that the one on one relationship is being ignored.

However, it may be indeed that you caught him in a lie and violation of an agreement. People are tempted to look for something better, such as a job, car, etc. It can happen in relationships also--called cheating.

If you do end the relationship, make sure you give him the phone back. Even if you are paying the service charges and such, make sure loose ends are cut and tied off. Get your own phone. If he paid the bills, he could have also monitored you. Little privacy, seeing who you called and other times used. If he doesn't take the phone back, especially if in his name, give it to the cell phone company and they'll see that it is returned to him. Similar to lost property returned.

As the old saying goes--"You don't get something for nothing."

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to irishbynature)

Post #: 32

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 8:20:24 PM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

Having been in the position of rebuilding trust after a break as well as cutting off a relationship after a break, I've been paying close attention to this thread. So while I
can understand Mercnbeth's position and I'm glad that philosophy works for you, it certainly isn't true for many other people. Nor should it be. Everyone's got their own personal list of forgiveable/unforgivable offenses and if one shot was all we had with our loved ones, most of us would be very alone. I have to admit, though, that I had to pause a bit after reading this:

quote:

Break it and you may be able to put it back together, but like a Ming vase you'll always have flaws. Maybe someone else won't see them, but you'll know they are there. I'd resent looking at it, because all I would see would be the flaws. Knowing and living by the 'one use only' rule keeps the relationship in the category of 'priceless'. It is irreplaceable. I like it that way.

If you live life looking for total perfection, without which all you see are the flaws, you're going to be perpetually disappointed. And miss out on an awful lot. Life may be messy and flawed and annoyingly imperfect, but its got a lot of good things going for it too.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 33

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 9:25:16 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline

quote:

If you live life looking for total perfection, without which all you see are the flaws, you're going to be perpetually disappointed. And miss out on an awful lot. Life may be messy and flawed and annoyingly imperfect, but its got a lot of good things going for it too.

Nicely said, darling.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 34

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/1/2006 11:17:18 PM

DixieBellle

Posts: 20
Joined: 5/26/2006
From: middle TN
Status: offline

any updates for us on your situation?

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 35

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/2/2006 6:03:24 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

If you live life looking for total perfection, without which all you see are the flaws, you're going to be perpetually disappointed. And miss out on an awful lot.

Holly,
And if you don't strive and attempt perfection or have perfection as a goal, by definition you are seeking and settling for mediocrity. The only failure and disappointment comes from quiting, not from the attempt. I never tire of the attempt of perfection even though I may never obtain it. 'Settling' has never been my style. If my goal was mediocrity or accepted breaches of honesty and trust I'd fear achieving it.

(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 36

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/2/2006 10:19:52 AM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

If you live life looking for total perfection, without which all you see are the flaws, you're going to be perpetually disappointed. And miss out on an awful lot.

Holly,
And if you don't strive and attempt perfection or have perfection as a goal, by definition you are seeking and settling for mediocrity. 'Settling' has never been my style.

I neither said nor implied that one should not strive to be perfect. Indeed, I'm a service-type which means I've got more than my share of perfectionism going for me. I am, however, emminently practical.

Aiming high to be the best you can be, while accepting setbacks or room for growth as motivators to do better is healthy. Expecting perfection the first time, in all things, is not. Exclusive focus on the flaws or mistakes in anything (a presentation, a relationship, whatever) will leave a person constantly disappointed, since the expectation for perfection will rarely be borne out. This outlook was what was implied in the original quote regarding the imperfect vase. I'm not saying Merc or anyone is wrong for thinking this way. Just pointing out the consequence for doing so.

No one is perfect, much as we might wish to be. We do the best we can -- sometimes well, sometimes acceptably, sometimes very badly. Even when dealing with something as damaging as breach of trust, there is hope that even the most serious screw-ups may be healed with a great deal of patience and hard work. If a person doesn't consider such an investment worth their time, that's his or her call to make. But sometimes it's worth it.

~Holly

_____________________________

I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 37

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/2/2006 11:07:49 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Expecting perfection the first time, in all things, is not. Exclusive focus on the flaws or mistakes in anything (a presentation, a relationship, whatever) will leave a person constantly disappointed, since the expectation for perfection will rarely be borne out. This outlook was what was implied in the original quote regarding the imperfect vase. I'm not saying Merc or anyone is wrong for thinking this way. Just pointing out the consequence for doing so.

Holly,
Regarding some concepts perfection IS an obtainable goal. Honesty and Trust in a relationship can not be flawed. It is in that context that I was using the vase example to make that point.

A 'perfect' person isn't possible. Perfection in all we attempt to do is not possible. Even success can prove to be elusive. Again, personally I use the goal of perfection as motivation; knowing that not obtainable. For example, the most masochistic thing I do is play golf. "Perfection" would be 1 stroke for each hole - unobtainable! I hope someday to take one stroke for 1 hole! Meanwhile, I'm neither disappointed or discouraged in the attempt even if sometime my one hole total is in double digits. Anger is another issue entirely!

But being honest requires a conscience effort NOT to be perfect. Using the 'one time use only' asset of trust takes a conscience effort. These are acts of commission, not 'mistakes'; not failure to achieve a goal. I see perfection not only obtainable but easy. Perfect honesty and trust with your partner simply requires the resolve, courage, and commitment to live by that standard.

The post responding to 'Emperor1956' was pointing to reestablishing trust. Imperfect trust or part time honesty don't reconcile with my relationship goals. And again I'll stand by my, once broken or even cracked, it can not be fixed.

(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 38

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/2/2006 7:15:13 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline

quote:

I guess I assumed that Dominants had a higher code of standards, such as honesty...due to the nature of the relationship? Or perhaps, I am niave?

You are not niave, you are naive

Dominants are people, plain and simple, they are no more (or less) honest, upright, or anything else than any other group of people.

To the OP....if you ain't happy, do the old fashioned thing...kick him to the curb

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to irishbynature)

Post #: 39

RE: I could really use a Master's advice. - 6/2/2006 7:28:41 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

mmmmmm... okay. I get what you are saying; I really do.

But... what does 'It's more critical to disclose concerns." mean? I'm totally serious here, Sir. Dammit, I'm NOT stupid, but I have only a couple years past a high school diploma and never really learned 'how to study'. Of all the things that gall me for not going to college it's "how to think".

I don't know what you mean. I'm sorry to say...

beverly

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 40

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