RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence?

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GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 3:12:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto My dictionary (the kind that is made of paper pages bound together & sits on my desk) defines "belief" as quote: something believed, an opinion or conviction not immediately susceptable to rigorous proof A religious person or theist holds the opinion or conviction that there is a God or Goddess or multiple Gods. This opinion or conviction cannot be proved by impartial, unbiased facts. An atheist holds the opinion or conviction that there is no God or Goddess or multiple Gods - and this opinion or conviction ALSO cannot be proved by impartial, unbiased facts. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief+system Ergo, atheism is a belief just as theism is a belief. Main Entry: belief system Part of Speech: n Definition: faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society I haven't even been disagreeing with you based on that, I've been pointing out that neither theism nor atheism is a series of beliefs. Theism/atheism even at their most beliefy can only get up to one belief, not a series of them. Even theism isn't a belief system in it's own right, though people generally hold the belief that there is a god because they have a religion or belief system.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 3:32:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 whatever one believes is up to the believer. In one sense I agree with you here, I certainly can't decide what you believe. In another sense I disagree with you because beliefs are effected by peer-pressure and because beliefs aren't exactly something you can choose. If you think that whatever one believes is up to the believer, then test that hypothesis, choose to believe that Santa Claus is real. Did that work? quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 It is a matter of what you wish to believe Would you consider this to be true for truth claims in general or even any other truth claim? Consider: person 1: The Earth is flat. person 2: That's completely valid, it is after all a matter of what you wish to believe. person 1: What's in that box? person 2: A zombie. You see neither of us has opened the box yet, therefore my claim about its contents is true. person 1: That makes sense after all it is a matter of what you wish to believe.

Louve00 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 4:02:43 AM)
The earth would be flat if we didn't know better. But we do. It's valid only if you're ignorant to that fact. In Christopher Columbus' day, they didn't have the means to discovered the earth was a round planet. So in not knowing that, and in looking out to sea, it would seem reasonable to assume that the earth is flat. But we do know better, today. But, if someone wishes to believe that, despite what man has learned, who am I to take their belief from them? I can tell them what I know...offer them the facts of that...but I can't make them believe that, unless they believe my sources and choose to go with it. To say a zombie is in a box you haven't opened is pure assumption. I try not to assume, so while I would let you believe what you wanted to believe, I would be skeptical of that statement and not consider it fact, unless I actually saw that zombie. It would only make sense if you jumped to conclusions and disallowed yourself the ability to actually find out and open the box. If I believe a thing, a person would have to offer concrete proof to disengage me from that belief. Truth and belief are two different things. You can believe something that is not true. But truth, for sake of example, would be more based on science and the true discovery of a fact. While belief is something that "faith" persuades. If the two meet in harmony, that's even better. But that doesn't always happen, IMO. :)

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 4:04:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto Ergo, atheism is a belief just as theism is a belief. I hadn't been talking about this but since you brought it up, just how old is your dictionary? I ask because dictionaries tend to define words according to how most people use them. Until very recent history atheists have been mostly in the closet and it's been a bunch of christians explaining to each other what atheism is. When I became an atheist I couldn't find a dictionary that didn't define it according to christian propaganda. If you look at old enough dictionaries you can find atheism defined as wickedness. Now those dictionaries are still around but it's also easy to find dictionaries that define the term accurately.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 4:20:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel choose to believe that Santa Claus is real. Did that work? I do not have to belief that, because I know that Santa Claus is real. That Santa Claus does not conform to your idea of Santa Claus, is your problem.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 4:25:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr So, I am not talking about people that just doubt my belief and go on their merry little way. Your not-so-subtle put-down of what I may or may not believe (woo-woo) pretty much tells me that you feel the need I described in my above re-quoted post. So, I was not describing atheists or agnostics. I was talking about the anti-God zealots that have this need to make sure *no one* believes in any kind of higher power. I have found that it's usually because they consider themselves to be the higher power and can't stand people worshipping anyone that isn't them. As I just explained you're most likely talking about a segment of the Atheist population that comes to Atheism because of their Skepticism. Skeptics kind of tend to be into debunking, it's a thing. People tend to be fine with that in theory until a Skeptic starts debunking their beliefs at which point the Skeptic becomes "zealot" and "hater" and just about every other negative thing that the believer can figure out to rant at them. P.S. It's not my put-down by the way, woo-woo isn't even a term that I use. It is however a term which exists.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 4:26:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Would you consider this to be true for truth claims in general or even any other truth claim? Consider: person 1: The Earth is flat. Sure it is, according to ancient knowledge. That such knowledge is not correctly interpreted by you, is your problem. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Would you consider this to be true for truth claims in general or even any other truth claim? Consider: person 1: What's in that box? person 2: A zombie. You see neither of us has opened the box yet, therefore my claim about its contents is true. person 1: That makes sense after all it is a matter of what you wish to believe. That is a rather accurate description of Schrödinger's cat. Since it is not known whether that cat is alive or dead, it may very well be considered to be a zombie cat. So yes, I would consider the box Schrödinger's cat is in to contain a zombie.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 5:16:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 The earth would be flat if we didn't know better. But we do. It's valid only if you're ignorant to that fact. The Earth wouldn't be flat if we didn't know better, unless you're proposing the some Tolkienesque idea that it used to actually be flat and then later bent into the current shape. quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 In Christopher Columbus' day, they didn't have the means to discovered the earth was a round planet. "The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy from around the 6th century BC,[1] but remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BC when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 So in not knowing that, and in looking out to sea, it would seem reasonable to assume that the earth is flat. Actually looking out to sea is one of the proofs that flat earth theory is wrong. That the crows nest allows people to see farther demonstrated that the earth wasn't flat for anyone who was paying attention. [image]local://upfiles/566126/C9843770C4E74099BE7EEAF020A7A59F.jpg[/image]

Yachtie -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 5:32:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 The earth would be flat if we didn't know better. But we do. It's valid only if you're ignorant to that fact. In Christopher Columbus' day, they didn't have the means to discovered the earth was a round planet. So in not knowing that, and in looking out to sea, it would seem reasonable to assume that the earth is flat. But we do know better, today. But, if someone wishes to believe that, despite what man has learned, who am I to take their belief from them? I can tell them what I know...offer them the facts of that...but I can't make them believe that, unless they believe my sources and choose to go with it. To say a zombie is in a box you haven't opened is pure assumption. I try not to assume, so while I would let you believe what you wanted to believe, I would be skeptical of that statement and not consider it fact, unless I actually saw that zombie. It would only make sense if you jumped to conclusions and disallowed yourself the ability to actually find out and open the box. If I believe a thing, a person would have to offer concrete proof to disengage me from that belief. Truth and belief are two different things. You can believe something that is not true. But truth, for sake of example, would be more based on science and the true discovery of a fact. While belief is something that "faith" persuades. If the two meet in harmony, that's even better. But that doesn't always happen, IMO. :) [sm=popcorn.gif]

Louve00 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 5:50:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 The earth would be flat if we didn't know better. But we do. It's valid only if you're ignorant to that fact. The Earth wouldn't be flat if we didn't know better, unless you're proposing the some Tolkienesque idea that it used to actually be flat and then later bent into the current shape. quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 In Christopher Columbus' day, they didn't have the means to discovered the earth was a round planet. "The concept of a spherical Earth dates back to ancient Greek philosophy from around the 6th century BC,[1] but remained a matter of philosophical speculation until the 3rd century BC when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the earth as a physical given." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 So in not knowing that, and in looking out to sea, it would seem reasonable to assume that the earth is flat. Actually looking out to sea is one of the proofs that flat earth theory is wrong. That the crows nest allows people to see farther demonstrated that the earth wasn't flat for anyone who was paying attention. My response was to you wanting me to consider that it was a valid thought to think the earth was flat. I could have just given in to your musings and said "Yes, GotSteel, you're right". But it wouldn't have been a valid thought to me. It would have been letting you make your point, without expressing mine. Ok, so my example wasn't as educated as yours. In fact, I did learn from you and what I learned was that Columbus had the means to know better than he did. I would go one step further and say, based on what you said, Columbus was a perfect example of his faith (and wish) to believe what he did. Columbus did indeed "choose" to believe that the earth was flat, if he had access to the information you just shared. Or, maybe he didn't have access to these facts. All Tolkienesque idea's aside...I never thought the earth was flat. Or that it ever was flat and one day shaped itself into the round shape it has now.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 5:59:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel People tend to be fine with that in theory until a Skeptic starts debunking their beliefs at which point the Skeptic becomes "zealot" and "hater" and just about every other negative thing that the believer can figure out to rant at them. Again, you missed my point. When someone who doesn't believe feels the need to destroy my belief, they are a zealot. They are on a mission. When "atheists" take to the streets because the town hall which has had a nativity scene out front for over 100 years has suddenly become "offensive" to them, they are zealots. It's no different than Christians marching on abortion clinics. They're zealots, too. They need to inflict their beliefs onto others. Prostheltyzers, if you prefer. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel P.S. It's not my put-down by the way, woo-woo isn't even a term that I use. It is however a term which exists. Oh, but you *did* use the "woo-woo". You even did so by linking us all to a definition of it. So, your above statement is false. Notice, please: quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr They have this deep-seeded need to abolish any and all belief in *anything* that may be omnipotent. Why? Oh, it's not restricted to things that posses omnipotents. Skeptics are opposed to all forms of woo-woo.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 6:10:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 To say a zombie is in a box you haven't opened is pure assumption. I try not to assume, so while I would let you believe what you wanted to believe, I would be skeptical of that statement and not consider it fact, unless I actually saw that zombie. It would only make sense if you jumped to conclusions and disallowed yourself the ability to actually find out and open the box. What about cases where we haven't figured out how to open the box yet? Is it then a matter of what you wish to believe or is claiming that a zombie's in the box still pure assumption? You talk about disallowing yourself the ability to find out what's in the box, isn't that exactly what faith does? When we decide as a society that we already know the answer because of faith and demand that somebody else figure out how to open the box and stick concrete proof in our faces before we'll disengage from that belief, doesn't that really get in the way of opening the box?

Louve00 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:03:17 AM)
So, if you can't open the box, you feel its ok to just assume you automatically know what is in it? Or that your guess would be taken as fact until proven wrong?? Faith, to me, means believing in something and not needing proof to believe it. Why does it bother you so much who believes what, as long as you know what your belief system consists of? I don't think that way.

Yachtie -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:11:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 To say a zombie is in a box you haven't opened is pure assumption. I try not to assume, so while I would let you believe what you wanted to believe, I would be skeptical of that statement and not consider it fact, unless I actually saw that zombie. It would only make sense if you jumped to conclusions and disallowed yourself the ability to actually find out and open the box. What about cases where we haven't figured out how to open the box yet? Is it then a matter of what you wish to believe or is claiming that a zombie's in the box still pure assumption? You talk about disallowing yourself the ability to find out what's in the box, isn't that exactly what faith does? When we decide as a society that we already know the answer because of faith and demand that somebody else figure out how to open the box and stick concrete proof in our faces before we'll disengage from that belief, doesn't that really get in the way of opening the box? You need to be careful here, derSteel. Faith does not disallow any such thing nor does it preclude science from opening the box. Your appeal to disengaging in faith as requisite for opening the box is unnecessary. Faith does not exist upon nothing; no idea what's in the box. It exists upon evidence that what is inside the box is not a zombie.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:12:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 All Tolkienesque idea's aside...I never thought the earth was flat. Or that it ever was flat and one day shaped itself into the round shape it has now. My response was to you wanting me to consider that it was a valid thought to think the earth was flat. Of course you don't think that, I'm trying to point out that we give theists claims about reality this special exception that doesn't apply to other claims about reality. The earth wouldn't be flat if we didn't know better, it is not a matter of what you wish to believe, there is a correct answer even if we don't know what it is. quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 In fact, I did learn from you and what I learned was that Columbus had the means to know better than he did. I would go one step further and say, based on what you said, Columbus was a perfect example of his faith (and wish) to believe what he did. Columbus did indeed "choose" to believe that the earth was flat, if he had access to the information you just shared. Or, maybe he didn't have access to these facts. I'm of the impression that Columbus thought the earth was spherical, his voyage wouldn't have made much sense otherwise. My point is that flat earth theory never should have been kicking around during the Dark Ages. People came up with a model of what the Earth is like based on some personal observations, it's pretty straight forward to see how they could have come up with flat. Thing is once they posit that hypothetical model if they had tested it, thought through how things would work on a flat earth and compared that to how things actually work, it would have shown them that the earth wasn't flat long before they had concrete proof. The same thing applies to God. I can't offer you concrete proof about how the universe started but we can talk to a Christian. What model of reality are they pushing? How does it compare to observable reality?

PatrickG38 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:18:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 All Tolkienesque idea's aside...I never thought the earth was flat. Or that it ever was flat and one day shaped itself into the round shape it has now. My response was to you wanting me to consider that it was a valid thought to think the earth was flat. Of course you don't think that, I'm trying to point out that we give theists claims about reality this special exception that doesn't apply to other claims about reality. The earth wouldn't be flat if we didn't know better, it is not a matter of what you wish to believe, there is a correct answer even if we don't know what it is. quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 In fact, I did learn from you and what I learned was that Columbus had the means to know better than he did. I would go one step further and say, based on what you said, Columbus was a perfect example of his faith (and wish) to believe what he did. Columbus did indeed "choose" to believe that the earth was flat, if he had access to the information you just shared. Or, maybe he didn't have access to these facts. I'm of the impression that Columbus thought the earth was spherical, his voyage wouldn't have made much sense otherwise. My point is that flat earth theory never should have been kicking around during the Dark Ages. People came up with a model of what the Earth is like based on some personal observations, it's pretty straight forward to see how they could have come up with flat. Thing is once they posit that hypothetical model if they had tested it, thought through how things would work on a flat earth and compared that to how things actually work, it would have shown them that the earth wasn't flat long before they had concrete proof. The same thing applies to God. I can't offer you concrete proof about how the universe started but we can talk to a Christian. What model of reality are they pushing? How does it compare to observable reality? Columbus did not think the earth was flat an almost no educated person thought this way. Columbus knew as every sailor who goes beyond the horizon that the earth was a sphere. The ancient Greeks knew the earth was basically a sphere and calculated the size of that sphere with surprising precision. Columbus miscalculated the size of the earth and had it not been for the American land mass would have soon died of starvation.

PatrickG38 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:23:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto (yes IMO atheism IS a belief system, just like religion is a belief system. Neither are "fact" based) I've already addressed why that is not the case, by the way. I respectfully disagree. My dictionary (the kind that is made of paper pages bound together & sits on my desk) defines "belief" as quote: something believed, an opinion or conviction not immediately susceptable to rigorous proof A religious person or theist holds the opinion or conviction that there is a God or Goddess or multiple Gods. This opinion or conviction cannot be proved by impartial, unbiased facts. An atheist holds the opinion or conviction that there is no God or Goddess or multiple Gods - and this opinion or conviction ALSO cannot be proved by impartial, unbiased facts. Ergo, atheism is a belief just as theism is a belief. Utter nonsense. Is not accepting the existance of unicorns a belief equivilant with accepting their existance? If you hold so, you are incapable of any judgment. Atheists hold there is no supernatural power because there is no evidence of a supernatural power. If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.

PeonForHer -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:25:02 AM)
It seems that this idea that the Earth was flat can be put down largely to Washington Irving. "It seems that in his book The life and voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828), he claimed that Columbus's journeys were made in order to prove that the Earth was round. This is not so; he was certainly looking for a route to India, but at the same time he was undoubtedly aware that there were those who thought a substantial land mass lay in between. At Columbus's time, no one seriously thought that the Earth was flat." - From the QI website.

Yachtie -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:25:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel The same thing applies to God. I can't offer you concrete proof about how the universe started but we can talk to a Christian. What model of reality are they pushing? How does it compare to observable reality? What is history but testimony (evidence) of observable reality past? Just because you cannot offer concrete proof of how the universe started does not invalidate the historical record.

PatrickG38 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/7/2012 8:26:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: doctorgrey yes, it IS offensive, but then, so is the notion of god. DrG Here's what someone told me a loooooong time ago: "Imagine there was this giant explosion (the Big Bang) and that everything was created from nothing (makes sense.....if there was always something....it had to come from somewhere, ergo, at one time there had to have been nothing). Now imagine everything you see today (here...next to you, what you see every day), how well it works intertwined, ad infinitum...... It's the equivalent of having 500 kabillion decks of cards....all shuffled together.....and the next 4,000,000 hands all come out a straight flush. Every time. That's Earth." That's God. The probabliity argument is silly as you forget the all the straight flushes that do not exist. Probabilty is complicated leave it for the educated. Yes, the Earth is rare, but when when considering the number of known galaxies, it is not at all rare. Just like winning a lottery is absurdly rare for an indivdual, but still occurs.

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