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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 8:31:32 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.


Evidence of what nature? Science has no evidence to disprove God. Theists have evidence, though not concrete, to establish a basis for belief. It's amusing that atheists dismiss that which is for that which is not.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 8:31:58 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: doctorgrey

yes, it IS offensive, but then, so is the notion of god.

DrG



Here's what someone told me a loooooong time ago:

"Imagine there was this giant explosion (the Big Bang) and that everything was created from nothing (makes sense.....if there was always something....it had to come from somewhere, ergo, at one time there had to have been nothing). Now imagine everything you see today (here...next to you, what you see every day), how well it works intertwined, ad infinitum......

It's the equivalent of having 500 kabillion decks of cards....all shuffled together.....and the next 4,000,000 hands all come out a straight flush. Every time.

That's Earth."

That's God.


The probabliity argument is silly as you forget the all the straight flushes that do not exist. Probabilty is complicated leave it for the educated. Yes, the Earth is rare, but when when considering the number of known galaxies, it is not at all rare. Just like winning a lottery is absurdly rare for an indivdual, but still occurs.



This Earth was designed perfectly for Life! No, Life is here; therefore the Earth must have had the proper conditions for Life as we know it. Life would have evolved differently on a different Earth . . . or not at all.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 8:54:28 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.


Evidence of what nature? Science has no evidence to disprove God. Theists have evidence, though not concrete, to establish a basis for belief. It's amusing that atheists dismiss that which is for that which is not.


Generally when you assert that something exists, you have the burden of proving that it does and generally this is not horribly difficult. Science does not disprove god, but that is nor science’s role. Science, history, archeology, geology disprove various scripture and specific claims of religions. When you shrink the space for god (as all modern societies do), philosophical or scientific disproof becomes more difficult and that is fine. I see no burden to disprove god anymore than I feel a burden to disprove Santa Clause. God simply is an unnecessary assumption even if the appeal of such an assumption can be understood.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 9:06:17 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.

Evidence of what nature? Science has no evidence to disprove God. Theists have evidence, though not concrete, to establish a basis for belief. It's amusing that atheists dismiss that which is for that which is not.

There is a segment of the atheist community who firmly believe in their intellectual superiority, basing that superiority primarily on their atheism. Their sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, sadly, leads non-atheists to feel that all atheists share their views.

They are the equivilent of the evangelical Protestant who believe they are superior to others, basing their superiority primarily on their religious beliefs. Their sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitude, sadly, leads non-Christians to feel that all Christians share their views.

Each of these perceives their position (atheism or religion) as based on "facts" and since their position (atheism or religion) is based on "facts", all that don't agree with them are clearly mentally deficient.

As a result, the majority get wrongly lumped in with the vocal minority in the eyes of others.


_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 9:18:33 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.


Evidence of what nature? Science has no evidence to disprove God. Theists have evidence, though not concrete, to establish a basis for belief. It's amusing that atheists dismiss that which is for that which is not.


Generally when you assert that something exists, you have the burden of proving that it does and generally this is not horribly difficult. Science does not disprove god, but that is nor science’s role. Science, history, archeology, geology disprove various scripture and specific claims of religions. When you shrink the space for god (as all modern societies do), philosophical or scientific disproof becomes more difficult and that is fine. I see no burden to disprove god anymore than I feel a burden to disprove Santa Clause. God simply is an unnecessary assumption even if the appeal of such an assumption can be understood.


I agree, it's not up to science to disprove anything. Yet science fetishists continually point to (the alter of) science, the fetishists proclaiming there is no need for god (an unnecessary assumption) ergo there is no god (a positive assertion even if framed in the negative). Just who is the one doing the assuming here?

It's not science which is burdened, but the Atheist science fetishist. Because when it comes down to it, science doesn't have word one to say about it but the Atheists damn well do.

It's not science talking, but A-theism.

(I'm considering revising my position to that atheism is a religion which worships at the alter of science)













< Message edited by Yachtie -- 2/7/2012 9:29:18 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 9:27:57 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
Science, history, archeology, geology disprove various scripture and specific claims of religions.

For example?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:02:12 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38
Science, history, archeology, geology disprove various scripture and specific claims of religions.

For example?



I hope you are not serious with the question. The geocentric universe and the contempraneous creation of all species for starts on a very long list. I really can not believe this is a serious question?????? No one has been silly enough on this tread to argue that the claims of scriture and religions are true; the argument has centered around the existnace of a supernatural being which is a different question.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:13:48 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

No one has been silly enough on this tread to argue that the claims of scriture and religions are true


That would be off topic.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:20:16 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I agree, it's not up to science to disprove anything. Yet science fetishists continually point to (the alter of) science, the fetishists proclaiming there is no need for god (an unnecessary assumption) ergo there is no god (a positive assertion even if framed in the negative). Just who is the one doing the assuming here?


 It doesn't matter how many times you call Stephen Hawking science fetishist, it in no way changes the quality of his position.

"A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:26:29 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
You need to be careful here, derSteel. Faith does not disallow any such thing nor does it preclude science from opening the box.


"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome. -Winston Churchill

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:33:18 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
You need to be careful here, derSteel. Faith does not disallow any such thing nor does it preclude science from opening the box.


"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome. -Winston Churchill




That is an amazingly ignorant quote that could have been very easily reversed in the centuries preceeding the 18th.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:34:37 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I agree, it's not up to science to disprove anything. Yet science fetishists continually point to (the alter of) science, the fetishists proclaiming there is no need for god (an unnecessary assumption) ergo there is no god (a positive assertion even if framed in the negative). Just who is the one doing the assuming here?


 It doesn't matter how many times you call Stephen Hawking science fetishist, it in no way changes the quality of his position.

"A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven



Is Herr Hawking talking as a scientist or an atheist? said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time. If that's science talking (making a positive statement), prove it!

I rest my case.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:58:34 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
When "atheists" take to the streets because the town hall which has had a nativity scene out front for over 100 years has suddenly become "offensive" to them, they are zealots.


Being treated as second class citizens hasn't suddenly become offensive to atheists, it's been offensive all along. We're just in a better position to get equal treatment under the law these days. The most recent one of these church state separation cases that I've heard of involves a law suit against cranston west high school to get the "school prayer" taken down. I don't think not wanting the state to promote one position and refer to another position as evil makes someone a zealot. I don't think Julia Ahlquist is a zealot. The people who have promised to rape and murder Julia Ahlquist for testifying in said lawsuit. Those are zealots.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Oh, but you did use the "woo-woo". You even did so by linking us all to a definition of it. So, your above statement is false. Notice, please:

I explained a position to you, if you choose to take offense go ahead



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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 11:15:49 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
When "atheists" take to the streets because the town hall which has had a nativity scene out front for over 100 years has suddenly become "offensive" to them, they are zealots.


Being treated as second class citizens hasn't suddenly become offensive to atheists, it's been offensive all along.




How does a nativity scene treat atheists like second class citizens? Really!!! Inquiring minds want to know. It's not like something you don't believe in hurts you now or does an actual damage to you, is it?



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 2/7/2012 11:18:19 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 11:29:53 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Being treated as second class citizens hasn't suddenly become offensive to atheists, it's been offensive all along. We're just in a better position to get equal treatment under the law these days. The most recent one of these church state separation cases that I've heard of involves a law suit against cranston west high school to get the "school prayer" taken down. I don't think not wanting the state to promote one position and refer to another position as evil makes someone a zealot. I don't think Julia Ahlquist is a zealot. The people who have promised to rape and murder Julia Ahlquist for testifying in said lawsuit. Those are zealots.



Well, let's look at this logically. I don't know who this Julia lady is nor do I care, at the moment.

If we're agreed that a "believer" that feels the need to impose their beliefs and will on other people is a zealot, than so is a non-believer that tries to do the same thing.

In the example I gave, the town hall with Christmas decorations, using your logic, "believers" should be "offended" (about) 49 weeks out of the year (when religious decorations aren't displayed).

I will ask, again: what about someone, believing in an old guy with a long beard and white robes is so offensive to someone who does not believe in the old man? I am not offended, when I see Muslims, kneeling to pray. I am not offended when I see someone not saying grace over their food. I shrug my shoulders. But the non-religious zealots ... the "God haters" run off in a tizzy when they see a believer exhibiting signs of belief.

Also, could you please point me in the direction of where I might find the "separation of church and state"? It doesn't exist. The constitution says: "Congress shall make no law either establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It's a "one-way wall". I am not advocating a new group of laws, instituting religious rites. I am advocating a little live-and-let-live which God haters seem not to be able to live by.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Oh, but you did use the "woo-woo". You even did so by linking us all to a definition of it. So, your above statement is false. Notice, please:



I explained a position to you, if you choose to take offense go ahead



Nah. I wasn't offended. I was trying to make a point to you (and point out the fallacy of your "I don't even use it" statement). I'm afraid the point didn't get through. I'm sorry.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 4:03:31 PM   
hardcybermaster


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Status: offline 		I think maybe the point was that theists are going to believe in a god whatever atheists do or say,and no matter what science proves or disproves theists will believe in god. An atheist is capable of changing their mind when new evidence comes to light ie god pops his or her head round the corner and says Hi! I am an atheist but if something occurs that proves there is a god then I will believe in that god, I sure as hell won't worship it, but I will believe it because it has been proved
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.


Evidence of what nature? Science has no evidence to disprove God. Theists have evidence, though not concrete, to establish a basis for belief. It's amusing that atheists dismiss that which is for that which is not.



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insert something clever or profound that someone else thought of

vanilla burger flipper


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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 4:18:35 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		Hi!

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 4:22:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		OK, that got me chortling. 

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 4:23:52 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
When "atheists" take to the streets because the town hall which has had a nativity scene out front for over 100 years has suddenly become "offensive" to them, they are zealots.


Being treated as second class citizens hasn't suddenly become offensive to atheists, it's been offensive all along.




How does a nativity scene treat atheists like second class citizens? Really!!! Inquiring minds want to know. It's not like something you don't believe in hurts you now or does an actual damage to you, is it?

As a follower of Jesus Christ, am I being treated as a second class citizen if my town erects a
menorah of the town common (I live in New England) during Hanuakah?
I don't think so.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 4:25:32 PM   
Rule


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