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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 6:54:26 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
How does a nativity scene treat atheists like second class citizens?


It doesn't. Let me say that again, christians getting to celebrate their worldview on public property doesn't. The second class citizen treatment towards us occurs when only christians get to celebrate their worldview on public property.

Our government should not be in the business of promoting or advertising one religion over the others or over non religion. That's not just my opinion, that's the law.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 7:21:24 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

I think maybe the point was that theists are going to believe in a god whatever atheists do or say,and no matter what science proves or disproves theists will believe in god. An atheist is capable of changing their mind when new evidence comes to light ie god pops his or her head round the corner and says Hi! I am an atheist but if something occurs that proves there is a god then I will believe in that god, I sure as hell won't worship it, but I will believe it because it has been proved


If that was true then anyone who was raised a theist would still believe in god and the only athiests would be those who were raised that way. But I know too many people who have gone from being religious to being athiests and too many athiests who have found god to even begin to believe that. But if it makes you feel smarter to think so, know your socks off.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 8:47:53 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
I think maybe the point was that theists are going to believe in a god whatever atheists do or say,and no matter what science proves or disproves theists will believe in god.

However, I don't think that's true, the growth of atheism, the growth of non religion, the move away from dogmatic theologies toward liberal ones all seem to say that the conversation does matter. These things just happen slowly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster
An atheist is capable of changing their mind when new evidence comes to light ie god pops his or her head round the corner and says Hi! I am an atheist but if something occurs that proves there is a god then I will believe in that god, I sure as hell won't worship it, but I will believe it because it has been proved


When an atheist is asked what it would take to prove to them that God is real I expect that the answer is invariably well it would take God.

However, that's not what it would take to convert me to a theist. I'd completely take evidence that was far less substantial and far more indirect than actually having a god show up. For instance if theists were advocating a more accurate model of reality than naturalists I'd be in.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 8:53:44 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
How does a nativity scene treat atheists like second class citizens?


It doesn't. Let me say that again, christians getting to celebrate their worldview on public property doesn't. The second class citizen treatment towards us occurs when only christians get to celebrate their worldview on public property.

Our government should not be in the business of promoting or advertising one religion over the others or over non religion. That's not just my opinion, that's the law.



But you have no worldview worth celebrating.

Snark aside, what worldview do you wish to celebrate? Who has ever stopped you from celebrating it?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 8:56:05 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

I think maybe the point was that theists are going to believe in a god whatever atheists do or say,and no matter what science proves or disproves theists will believe in god. An atheist is capable of changing their mind when new evidence comes to light ie god pops his or her head round the corner and says Hi! I am an atheist but if something occurs that proves there is a god then I will believe in that god, I sure as hell won't worship it, but I will believe it because it has been proved
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

If persuasive evidence, we are happy to change our opinion because unlike theism, atheism is not a dogma.


Evidence of what nature? Science has no evidence to disprove God. Theists have evidence, though not concrete, to establish a basis for belief. It's amusing that atheists dismiss that which is for that which is not.




In theory, Atheists would have fewer difficulties, but what you said "I sure as hell won't worship it, but I will believe it because it has been proved." suggests that you do not have a clue. Permit me to explain. Suppose God were a person that knew you better than you know yourself and had the means to fabricate anything including a perfect body, male or female. Are you saying that God would not have what it takes to seduce you if it were so inclined? As an Atheist you have a duty to acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed. Could you resist and why would you want to?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 9:11:26 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
In the example I gave, the town hall with Christmas decorations, using your logic, "believers" should be "offended" (about) 49 weeks out of the year (when religious decorations aren't displayed).

If you have one of these on your public grounds 49 weeks a year and Christian decorations are only allowed for 3 weeks a year then you've got a winnable lawsuit and my support.

If on the other hand you're suggesting that you should be offended if you get to advertise for your religion 3 weeks a year while we get jack shit and death threats for even asking. Well, dude that's fucked up.




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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 9:28:00 PM   
Kirata


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The elephant in the room here is that nobody really believes in the flying spaghetti monster. The sole purpose of such a display is to parody and ridicule the sincerely held beliefs of others. There is nothing admirable about a bunch of over-grown bullies engaging in puerile shit that wouldn't be tolerated in a Kindergarten.

K.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 10:16:49 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


The elephant in the room here is that nobody really believes in the flying spaghetti monster. The sole purpose of such a display is to parody and ridicule the sincerely held beliefs of others. There is nothing admirable about a bunch of over-grown bullies engaging in puerile shit that wouldn't be tolerated in a Kindergarten.

K.

Fair enough K. I'm unclear as to how this might actually work out in practice. Perhaps you can clarify this for me.

How then do you recommend that we treat the political policies derived from the 'sincerely held beliefs' of say some Muslims for example:

When someone advocates a political policy on the grounds that it is consistent with the teachings of the 12th Iman, and an absolutely essential pre-requisite for the return of said 12th Iman, what is, in your view, the correct amount of respect and/or heed we ought to pay such a perspective?

Should the correct amount of respect paid to this view vary in any way from the correct amount of respect we accord those people whose 'sincerely held beliefs' insist that contraceptives must not be part of family planning services in the Third World because contraception is not permissible under the arcane theology the Catholic Church teaches?

Why are any given set of beliefs beyond parody? Why should religious beliefs - and let's face it there are some pretty wacky ones out there - be given this special status?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/7/2012 10:20:18 PM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 11:30:14 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
However, that's not what it would take to convert me to a theist. I'd completely take evidence that was far less substantial and far more indirect than actually having a god show up.

So ask for a miracle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
For instance if theists were advocating a more accurate model of reality than naturalists I'd be in.

My model is the most accurate.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/7/2012 11:33:48 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
If you have one of these on your public grounds 49 weeks a year

The artist forgot my spaghetti beard! Hey!

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 12:15:45 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

How then do you recommend that we treat the political policies derived from the 'sincerely held beliefs'... Why are any given set of beliefs beyond parody?

The case in point parodies and ridicules belief in God. Belief in God, period. But in your response, you question how, then, are we to deal with people who think they have a right to impose their beliefs upon those who disagree with them. We deal with them in the same way that we would deal with anybody else who thinks that, regardless of their reason. There is no basis for having any confidence in the motives of those who seek to ridicule belief in God under the guise of fighting fanaticism.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/8/2012 1:09:40 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 12:28:53 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

When "atheists" take to the streets because the town hall which has had a nativity scene out front for over 100 years has suddenly become "offensive" to them, they are zealots.



Being treated as second class citizens hasn't suddenly become offensive to atheists, it's been offensive all along.




How does a nativity scene treat atheists like second class citizens? Really!!! Inquiring minds want to know. It's not like something you don't believe in hurts you now or does an actual damage to you, is it?



As a follower of Jesus Christ, am I being treated as a second class citizen if my town erects a
menorah of the town common (I live in New England) during Hanuakah?
I don't think so.



Your assessment is correct and you either haven't been following that whole part of the discussion or you're being too literal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
In the example I gave, the town hall with Christmas decorations, using your logic, "believers" should be "offended" (about) 49 weeks out of the year (when religious decorations aren't displayed).

If you have one of these on your public grounds 49 weeks a year and Christian decorations are only allowed for 3 weeks a year then you've got a winnable lawsuit and my support.

If on the other hand you're suggesting that you should be offended if you get to advertise for your religion 3 weeks a year while we get jack shit and death threats for even asking. Well, dude that's fucked up.





See? This is my point! Your little "spaghetti god" isn't offensive to me. I think it's pretty silly but I am not offended . Your belief in that little spaghetti god does not shake my belief system at all. That's my point. I can disbelieve all I want. How is something like your belief in that offensive? You have yet to answer that question.



Peace and comfort,



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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 3:31:10 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		This is the best logical explanation of an afterlife and soforth God.
Not that I believe in God, but I would like to consider the notion of absolute justice.

Taken from Phaedo by Plato if you wanna read the whole piece.

"Now, said Socrates, I will analyze one of the two pairs of opposites which I have mentioned to you, and also its intermediate processes, and you shall analyze the other to me. One of them I term sleep, the other waking. The state of sleep is opposed to the state of waking, and out of sleeping waking is generated, and out of waking, sleeping; and the process of generation is in the one case falling asleep, and in the other waking up. Do you agree?

I entirely agree.

Life is opposed to death, as waking is to sleeping, and in like manner they are generated from one another.

Then, suppose that you analyze life and death to me in the same manner. Is not death opposed to life?

Yes.

And they are generated one from the other?

Yes.

What is generated from the living?

The dead.

And what from the dead?

I can only say in answer—the living."




< Message edited by MrBukani -- 2/8/2012 3:44:12 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 4:47:47 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

How then do you recommend that we treat the political policies derived from the 'sincerely held beliefs'... Why are any given set of beliefs beyond parody?

The case in point parodies and ridicules belief in God. Belief in God, period. But in your response, you question how, then, are we to deal with people who think they have a right to impose their beliefs upon those who disagree with them. We deal with them in the same way that we would deal with anybody else who thinks that, regardless of their reason. There is no basis for having any confidence in the motives of those who seek to ridicule belief in God under the guise of fighting fanaticism.

K.

Your suggestion is to " deal with them in the same way that we would deal with anybody else who thinks that, regardless of their reason".

Parody and ridicule are perfectly acceptable responses to anyone who thinks that. For example, it's perfectly OK to ridicule or parody totalitarian political beliefs. So the response seems to me to fail to justify criticism of those who parody and ridicule religious beliefs.

Again I ask why do religious beliefs, no matter how idiotic they may seem, get a free pass from parody and ridicule? Why is religion in a class of its own? Why are any given set of beliefs beyond parody or ridicule?


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/8/2012 4:59:01 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 5:04:33 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Parody on God you can consider as Blasphemy wich was illegal up to a couple years ago. We just passed legislation it's legal over here.
Maybe that why?
I have tried to answer your question to me in the real cost of war thread as well, I hope it helps you.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 5:24:20 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr






Where's the red sauce?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 6:28:16 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

This is the best logical explanation of an afterlife and soforth God.
Not that I believe in God, but I would like to consider the notion of absolute justice.

Taken from Phaedo by Plato if you wanna read the whole piece.

"Now, said Socrates, I will analyze one of the two pairs of opposites which I have mentioned to you, and also its intermediate processes, and you shall analyze the other to me. One of them I term sleep, the other waking. The state of sleep is opposed to the state of waking, and out of sleeping waking is generated, and out of waking, sleeping; and the process of generation is in the one case falling asleep, and in the other waking up. Do you agree?

I entirely agree.

Life is opposed to death, as waking is to sleeping, and in like manner they are generated from one another.

Then, suppose that you analyze life and death to me in the same manner. Is not death opposed to life?

Yes.

And they are generated one from the other?

Yes.

What is generated from the living?

The dead.

And what from the dead?

I can only say in answer—the living."





That is all true in a biological context. Death does generate life and it is an amazing natural phenomenon. As for justice in the afterlife; we all root for that, butt that doesn't make it anymore likely.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 6:56:14 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		faith is belief that is not based on proof, therefore a person of faith does not have to prove anything to anyone.

However, I challenge the op to do something, PROVE with absolute examples there is no god. It cant be done.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 7:07:59 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Your suggestion is to " deal with them in the same way that we would deal with anybody else who thinks that, regardless of their reason"... Again I ask why do religious beliefs, no matter how idiotic they may seem, get a free pass from parody and ridicule?

The case in point, I repeat, parodies and ridicules belief in God, belief in God period, by anybody period. Your question asked about dealing with those who think they have the right impose their ideas on others. I am perplexed that you don't seem to see the distinction I'm drawing. Let me try spelling it out. When Pat Robertson or some other fool goes off about abortion being murder, or Katrina God's punishment for homosexuality, ridicule HIM, ridicule THAT belief. To go off, instead, ridiculing Christians as a class and belief in God generally is to be just as much a fuckwit as he is.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/8/2012 7:15:14 AM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/8/2012 8:05:16 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		OMG

Wich God are wes fokkin tokkin bout?
Jehova?Jahwe?Christ?Allah?Zues?Thor?
I remember a wiseguy saying, "Never trust a man with too many nicknames."

I can prove My God exists
My God is Nature
And every religion can relate to it if they want to.
Nature is Logic, Logic is Intelligence.
Cause and effect.
Problem solved, now kiss and make up and bring some peace to this world.

(in reply to Kirata)
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