RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 11:42:20 AM)

quote:

I used a university study as a source and you use Wikipedia.


psst - the numbers are footnotes which link to studies.




kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 11:45:57 AM)

quote:

Meaning that when actually used its effective only 96.8% of the time.


But pregnancies were excluded from the Pope Paul VI Institute stats. (See my Wiki quote previous page.) I have to leave, so will dig deeper into this when I return, unless you beat me to it.




GotSteel -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 11:48:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
The Right sees the mother and child as equally human and do not believe that convenience is a reason to kill someone. We also do not believe a child should ever pay for the crimes of their parents with their life (in the cases of rape/incest). We also never say she must KEEP the child.

The problem with that argument of course is that it misrepresents this as a child.


[image]local://upfiles/566126/6577E5E87E5B4ACFB8267D39AC1FE112.jpg[/image]




Edwynn -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 12:02:39 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
My bad, I missed that the first time around.




No issue. But thanks. Overlooking some pertinent detail in a post ... yeah, done that more than a few times myself.





tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 12:03:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Meaning that when actually used its effective only 96.8% of the time.


But pregnancies were excluded from the Pope Paul VI Institute stats. (See my Wiki quote previous page.) I have to leave, so will dig deeper into this when I return, unless you beat me to it.


I missed your post. Thank you for the heads up. And you are right, it does change the outcome.

Yeah, I got lots of problems with this study....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8057183?dopt=AbstractPlus (the source, not wiki)

PIP:
In Wisconsin, nurse researchers followed 242 couples who had enrolled in the Marquette University Nursing Center's natural family planning program between October 1984 and May 1992 to determine the use effectiveness of the Creighton model ovulation detection method to avoid or achieve pregnancy. The couples were largely college educated (98%), white (93%), and Roman Catholic (80.2%)


What is the demographic of the poor? What if they arent white? Why was this the target group?

The practitioner informs each couple that if they choose to have genital intercourse during the fertile period, they have abandoned the model as a method of pregnancy avoidance and have adopted it as a method of achieving pregnancy.

Completely understandable and certainly valid.

The use effectiveness rate of avoiding pregnancy at the 12th ordinal month was 98%.

Already shown to not be accurate.

The use effectiveness rate of achieving pregnancy at the 12th ordinal month was 24.4%.

Not really pertinent to this discussion, but interesting none the less.

The cumulative discontinuation rate was 20.2% at the 12th ordinal month. Personal reasons (17.4%) were the major reason for discontinuation. These findings suggest that the Creighton model is effective at avoiding or achieving pregnancy, if it is taught by qualified teachers.

This can be taken one of two ways.

If seen in the concept of birth control pills, this could mean that a woman just decides to stop taking the pills. This could also be seen as a woman forgetting a dose.

Its interesting to note that none of the other forms of birth control exclude the latter group. Implying that a woman on the pill is out of a study because she forgot a dose would be the same thing as the exclusion this study performed. Such exclusions due to a lack of strict adherence would make the effective use rate much higher for all forms of birth control.




BenevolentM -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 12:05:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Face it, they don't give a shit about anyone's lives. Otherwise they'd mind their own fucking business.


You may be partially correct. I wrote, "... Do not forget that the Church was willing to burn people alive at the stake in hope that they will make a last second conversion having tasted something of the fires of Hell. The Church takes its mission very seriously. Its mission is to save you which is not necessarily the same thing as keeping you out of harms way; that is their goal is to save you, not coddle you per se. ..."




tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 12:05:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
The Right sees the mother and child as equally human and do not believe that convenience is a reason to kill someone. We also do not believe a child should ever pay for the crimes of their parents with their life (in the cases of rape/incest). We also never say she must KEEP the child.

The problem with that argument of course is that it misrepresents this as a child.


[image]local://upfiles/566126/6577E5E87E5B4ACFB8267D39AC1FE112.jpg[/image]


If I may include... the right for life group looking to prevent all abortions are also the group that wishes to ban the morning after pills. Preventing even stage one of the photo you provided.

There can be no life without implantation. I have yet to see a credible argument against that.




GotSteel -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 12:12:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
So, if one is poor, one shouldn't have sex? Really?
quote:

ORIGINAL: ghostraven
. As for health insurance and a lack of funding I must say if you can't pay, don't play. The same as buying a car in that instance. A fact of life my friends.


There are natural ways to avoid pregnancy while still having sex that are just as effective as the Pill without all the nasty health hazards. All it requires is a pen and paper. And I'm not talking about the rhythm method but more accurate forms of natural family planning.

I'm glad there are multiple birth control options out there, the pill isn't a good choice for some, is a great choice for others and may well be so for reasons that have nothing to do with the risk of pregnancy.

That said it seems like your trying to make a point about the cost, the issue I'd take with that is that frequent visits at $25 is a bit different than "a pen and paper" wouldn't you agree?




BenevolentM -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 12:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
The Right sees the mother and child as equally human and do not believe that convenience is a reason to kill someone. We also do not believe a child should ever pay for the crimes of their parents with their life (in the cases of rape/incest). We also never say she must KEEP the child.

The problem with that argument of course is that it misrepresents this as a child.

[image]local://upfiles/566126/6577E5E87E5B4ACFB8267D39AC1FE112.jpg[/image]


To understand why the Church regards an embryo as a human child one must be familiar with a prayer that is often recited by Catholics, namely the Hail Mary, which is from a passage in the Bible. The words are the words that were recited to Mary by an angel at the moment of conception. This is something I realized one day having recited the Hail Mary for many years. There is also the incident recounted in Luke 1:41 (New American Standard Bible 1995): "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." http://nasb.scripturetext.com/luke/1.htm

Edited to add the leading 1: in 1:41.




DomKen -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 2:17:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
There are natural ways to avoid pregnancy while still having sex that are just as effective as the Pill without all the nasty health hazards. All it requires is a pen and paper. And I'm not talking about the rhythm method but more accurate forms of natural family planning.

You can't really believe this.

Natural family planning methods only work if the soon to be mother's cycle is always the same. Unless you are really advocating for going to extreme lengths, multiple daily temperature checks, to detect ovulation but a method using only pen and paper is useless.

If you're in a high risk group you could avoid hormone based contraception and go to one of the very effective barrier methods i.e. condoms, diaphragms etc. which especially if used correctly with a spermicide are very nearly as effective as the pill.




kitkat105 -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 3:50:15 PM)

There was a stage in my life where I almost had to consider abortion. If I didn't at the very least have that option, I either would have endured a possibly miserable/unhealthy pregnancy & adoption process or I'd now have an 8 year old.

I was pro-life till I experienced that at the mature age of 18(!) I had excellent sex education, was using contraception and even live in a country where social security is very good for young mothers. It made me become pro-choice, but with that said abortion should not be used as contraception like I know in some areas it is. I believe long term & reliable contraception (implanon, IUDs, etc) should be affordable & accessible for all women to ensure control over their fertility.

ETA:
I respect the decision of those to be pro-life for religious reasons. But it's not their place as a layperson to judge those who need to utilize this option. I have a real issue of them harassing people accessing clinics and the like. If you're so religious, let God be the judge, not you.





kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 4:19:53 PM)

quote:

I respect the decision of those to be pro-life for religious reasons. But it's not their place as a layperson to judge those who need to utilize this option. I have a real issue of them harassing people accessing clinics and the like. If you're so religious, let God be the judge, not you.


I like this.




farglebargle -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 4:24:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

I wasn't aware that the religious right was against charity?


I observe that the crazy religious extremists just sentenced a whole lot of poor women to death by breast cancer because they're offended by the provider of breast cancer screenings.

So, I don't think that's a credible position in the face of objective reality.




kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 4:50:59 PM)

quote:

The practitioner informs each couple that if they choose to have genital intercourse during the fertile period, they have abandoned the model as a method of pregnancy avoidance and have adopted it as a method of achieving pregnancy.

Completely understandable and certainly valid.


How do you figure this is valid? I think people who started using the method to avoid pregnancy and end up getting pregnant should not be moved into the achieving pregnancy group. If they change their minds and want to become pregnant they should be completely stricken from the study because it will screw up the dates in addition to being a sneaky way to boost stats.

If they do have sex during their fertile time, this is important to know because it falls under actual use. It's like a woman having sex after forgetting to take the pill or while on antibiotics.




kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 4:53:36 PM)

quote:

I observe that the crazy religious extremists just sentenced a whole lot of poor women to death by breast cancer because they're offended by the provider of breast cancer screenings.


IOW:

Susan G. Komen stops Planned Parenthood funding: Who does the decision hurt more?

When Susan G. Komen announced Tuesday afternoon it was pulling its grants for breast-cancer screenings from Planned Parenthood, the reaction from critics was fast and furious.

The move was called, in some of the nicer assessments: “disgusting,” “anti-women,” and an “act of cowardice.” The president of Planned Parenthood said she couldn’t understand how the nation’s leading breast-cancer charity “could have bowed to this kind of bullying,” alleging that the funding was cut because of pressure from anti-abortion groups. Planned Parenthood offers wide-ranging reproductive health care services, but its work is centered on pro-choice decision-making and sexual education.




kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 4:54:55 PM)

Time for the chart:

[image]http://cdn.front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Planned-Parenthood-Patient-Care.jpg[/image]




Lucylastic -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 4:58:45 PM)

I wonder how many pro lifers will donate now they have taken PP funding out of the process as opposed to how much their donations will crash from pro choicers who are disgusted.
Having read many many articles/blogs comments on it today, I have a feeling they may "quietly" reverse that decision.
Bu t I guess we shall see





kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 5:00:56 PM)

Planned Parenthood, which received about $680,000 from Komen last year, according to the Associated Press, has reportedly already raised $250,000 on news of Komen’s decision. And it will likely end up recouping its losses quickly.




tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 5:09:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

The practitioner informs each couple that if they choose to have genital intercourse during the fertile period, they have abandoned the model as a method of pregnancy avoidance and have adopted it as a method of achieving pregnancy.

Completely understandable and certainly valid.


How do you figure this is valid? I think people who started using the method to avoid pregnancy and end up getting pregnant should not be moved into the achieving pregnancy group. If they change their minds and want to become pregnant they should be completely stricken from the study because it will screw up the dates in addition to being a sneaky way to boost stats.

If they do have sex during their fertile time, this is important to know because it falls under actual use. It's like a woman having sex after forgetting to take the pill or while on antibiotics.


Sorry it wasnt clear.

By valid I mean its valid to hold the position that stated. The method does not work if you dont follow the method. However, in this case, they should have been maintained in a third category.

The failure rate of using this method to prevent pregnancy is based upon following the method to the letter. That IS valid.

What is needed is a study on women who follow, to the letter, the use of pills and compare the two groups with all three categories.




tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/1/2012 5:19:39 PM)

Komen spokeswoman Leslie Aun said the cutoff results from the charity's newly adopted criteria barring grants to organizations that are under investigation by local, state or federal authorities. According to Komen, this applies to Planned Parenthood because it's the focus of an inquiry launched by Rep. Cliff Stearns, R-Fla., seeking to determine whether public money was improperly spent on abortions.

Women and children first.......




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