RE: Thoughts on Dog.

RE: Thoughts on Dog. (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 3:52:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pavel So yeah. Why in the spiritual sense, do bad things happen to good people? Why is it God? You are taking the sensationalist view that bad things happen to good people and God could change it. He won't. The choice was made. Free will. And why are all these things that occur, 'a bad thing'? Why is it not up to us as humans, to care for our planet, to nurture it, to be responsible for each other without wanting anything back, other than to learn and gain more understanding? It all boils down to the fact that people have grown to 'expect'. We are owed nothing. We should expect nothing. We should simply love. quote: (As an aside for you non-religious people, or folks with beliefs in conflict, please, please please be polite. The world has enough people burned at the stake/beheaded/thrown to the lions, etc, etc because we can't tolerate other people's faith. Let's at least pretend to be civil. I actually find that a rather ironic statement/request from someone whos first word could be viewed as a derogatory term. (Yes, I know it was a punchline, I am just suggesting that conflict will occur - it is human nature - why should people 'pretend' to be anything they are not?) Just an observation. Peace and Rapture

darkinshadows -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 4:01:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee I have studied physics, I have studied mathematics, I have studied astrology, I have studied theology. I lay all my cards at the table of proven science. Yes, I am an atheist. I do not believe that there is a higher power guiding all of us. I don't believe in the devil, I don't believe in angels, I don't believe in 'one all powerful god'. My experience in my short life span has shown me that both god and the devil are used to place blame when things go wrong. My life is what I make it. I don't attribute my luck to god, and I don't blame the devil when something goes wrong. I place all responsibility at my own feet. I got where I am today because of ME; and if I fall flat on my face tomorrow, the blame lies with ME also. I believe in a God, and in an opposite entity, I know there are angels. Other than that - ditto on what you just said - yet I am a christian. Blaming the devil or some evil force is a cop out. Personal responsibility. It is actually a myth that christians actually believes in blaming the devil for mistakes they made. Peace and Love

Tikkiee -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 4:10:52 AM)
I acknowledge and commend you for your beliefs. As I said, I lay my cards at the table of science. One day, IF it is ever shown to me, beyond a doubt, that there is scientific evidence that a higher entity exists, my stance will probably be re-evaluated. Until that day arrives, I believe in what I can see, touch, hear, and taste.

darkinshadows -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 4:14:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee Until that day arrives, I believe in what I can see, touch, hear, and taste. So do I. Peace and Rapture

IronBear -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 4:17:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pavel Back when I was a much more pious/self righteous/confused person, my youth pastor told me a joke about "What's the dyslexic atheist looking for?" with the punch line being "dog." Hence the title of this post. That and really, who would willingly check a post called "thoughts on God?" Carrying on in good order however. I've noticed a fair pile of posts relating to religion and the like on this board in the last few days, and I'm going to jump on the bandwagon. I'm not exactly a theology student, and I got twitchy in Phil. 101, but I've always been curious as to how people in different faiths and belief systems reconcile when bad stuff happens to good people. This particular topic was spurred by an article (by the AP) that ran in the Seattle Times tonight that focused on the reactions of people in Indonesia to recent natural disasters and the like. The reoccurring theme seemed to follow that A. Allah was upset at <insert perceive national failing> and was punishing people (of course, this logic always confused me. If God/Goddess/Allah/Batman really was pissed off, wouldn't he/she be better off frying the heathens, than his/her possibly slightly lost followers?) or B. Allah was testing the faithful (while this logic is borne out in the Bible, in the story of Job in particular, why would a diety that knows your heart, soul, mind, shoe size really, really need to make your life suck to know that you loved/had faith/didn't eat meat on the wrong day.) So yeah. Why in the spiritual sense, do bad things happen to good people? (As an aside for you non-religious people, or folks with beliefs in conflict, please, please please be polite. The world has enough people burned at the stake/beheaded/thrown to the lions, etc, etc because we can't tolerate other people's faith. Let's at least pretend to be civil. Crikey and here was me thinking the thread was all about "Dog The Bounty Hunter"...... Ahh well back to the glass of port..

darkinshadows -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 4:30:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear quote: ORIGINAL: Pavel Back when I was a much more pious/self righteous/confused person, my youth pastor told me a joke about "What's the dyslexic atheist looking for?" with the punch line being "dog." Hence the title of this post. That and really, who would willingly check a post called "thoughts on God?" Carrying on in good order however. I've noticed a fair pile of posts relating to religion and the like on this board in the last few days, and I'm going to jump on the bandwagon. I'm not exactly a theology student, and I got twitchy in Phil. 101, but I've always been curious as to how people in different faiths and belief systems reconcile when bad stuff happens to good people. This particular topic was spurred by an article (by the AP) that ran in the Seattle Times tonight that focused on the reactions of people in Indonesia to recent natural disasters and the like. The reoccurring theme seemed to follow that A. Allah was upset at <insert perceive national failing> and was punishing people (of course, this logic always confused me. If God/Goddess/Allah/Batman really was pissed off, wouldn't he/she be better off frying the heathens, than his/her possibly slightly lost followers?) or B. Allah was testing the faithful (while this logic is borne out in the Bible, in the story of Job in particular, why would a diety that knows your heart, soul, mind, shoe size really, really need to make your life suck to know that you loved/had faith/didn't eat meat on the wrong day.) So yeah. Why in the spiritual sense, do bad things happen to good people? (As an aside for you non-religious people, or folks with beliefs in conflict, please, please please be polite. The world has enough people burned at the stake/beheaded/thrown to the lions, etc, etc because we can't tolerate other people's faith. Let's at least pretend to be civil. Crikey and here was me thinking the thread was all about "Dog The Bounty Hunter"...... Ahh well back to the glass of port.. OMGosh... so did I! [:D] (is so glad it wasn't just me) Peace and Rature

ArtCatDom -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 6:13:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei The reason I don't belong to a Christian-based faith is because I don't want to and cannot believe in a god or a dog who intentionally allows harm to come to innocent people, because all things happen for a reason, or to teach us a lesson, etc. I don't understand how god could justify or approve of the heinous murder of an innocent person. Furthermore, the murdered person who could be a caring, loving person who never harmed anyone, yet could still be hellbound, and the murderer could be forgiven and sent to heaven when his time comes. Yes, it's my opinion... but I don't want to believe anything like that. Others should believe whatever they choose to believe. I do believe that if you are a good person, goodness will follow you, and vice-versa. However, we often cannot control what harm others, nature, or accidents/outside forces do to us. I believe everyone is responsible for their actions, and what is beyond our own control, is ultimately beyond anyone's/anything's control Reply was to no one in particular, just the fast reply thing to address the OP. Your explanation that we cannot control the free will of others is exactly the same defense Christian theologists use. Just a thought. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 6:19:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacknblueballs MistressLorelei's and ArtCatDom's comments both got me to thinking. The primary reason why i do not subscribe to the Christian-based faith has to do with free will. God says something along the lines of "worship me, of your own free will. the temptation to do 'bad' is there, but you should rise above and worship me." This sounds all nice and good. However, this god is holding a proverbial gun to my head when this is asked of me. It is difficult to claim i am offering god my free-willing worship when the alternative - should i decide with my free will to not worship god - is damnation. God is kind of like a school yard bully: "You want to give me your lunch money, right? Willingly, right? Cuz if you don't, I'm gonna pound the snot out of you." Just so you understand my own point of view, I am an universalist. I believe everyone, no matter how wicked, receives salvation in the end. So, in my faith, there is no gun-point diplomacy. What constitutes "Hell" is a matter of great conjecture to me. It could be that we are reincarnated until we "learn our lesson". It could be akin to a furnace that burns off the dross. Et cetera. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 6:30:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee I acknowledge and commend you for your beliefs. As I said, I lay my cards at the table of science. One day, IF it is ever shown to me, beyond a doubt, that there is scientific evidence that a higher entity exists, my stance will probably be re-evaluated. Until that day arrives, I believe in what I can see, touch, hear, and taste. Hmm, just some thoughts. Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science. Much of science is predicated on observations and theories that you cannot perceive with the senses listed. Again, just some thoughts. meow

Moloch -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 6:34:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Crikey and here was me thinking the thread was all about "Dog The Bounty Hunter"...... Ahh well back to the glass of port.. If you watch that show You either A) Get Brain cancer or B) Move to a trailer, start doing crystal meth and humping your family tree. Reaaaaly Bad show

meatcleaver -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 6:54:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Hmm, just some thoughts. Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science. Much of science is predicated on observations and theories that you cannot perceive with the senses listed. Again, just some thoughts. meow I don't think science as ever claimed to prove things beyond doubt but enough to convince us at least temporarily that natural laws react in certain ways, at least enough for many of us to fly in an aeroplane and the like. Now if a prophet told you to flap your arms and jump off a tall building, I wouldn't recommend it.

ArtCatDom -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 7:06:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Hmm, just some thoughts. Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science. Much of science is predicated on observations and theories that you cannot perceive with the senses listed. Again, just some thoughts. meow I don't think science as ever claimed to prove things beyond doubt but enough to convince us at least temporarily that natural laws react in certain ways, at least enough for many of us to fly in an aeroplane and the like. Now if a prophet told you to flap your arms and jump off a tall building, I wouldn't recommend it. sighs Read what I was responding to. Also note the cavaet "just some thoughts". meow

Tikkiee -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 7:06:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee I acknowledge and commend you for your beliefs. As I said, I lay my cards at the table of science. One day, IF it is ever shown to me, beyond a doubt, that there is scientific evidence that a higher entity exists, my stance will probably be re-evaluated. Until that day arrives, I believe in what I can see, touch, hear, and taste. Hmm, just some thoughts. Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science. Much of science is predicated on observations and theories that you cannot perceive with the senses listed. Again, just some thoughts. meow On the contrary, the senses are extremely scientifically based and proven, beyond a doubt. And yes, while science is based on observations and theories; it is also backed by research and factual data.

MstrTiger -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 7:10:13 AM)
I think the universe happened because it had to happen for us to be able to get to the point we are in, everything that has happened in the past did so because it was inevitable what is the future is built on the foundations of what has happened in the past it is just a continuing process of inevitability. I don’t think people truly have free will since all our actions are based on what has happened before we arrive at the point in time where we have to make them. I think people can only have true free will in a vacuum with nothing in the past and where our actions will not influence the future. “Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science.” that is not a argument against following a scientific approach all you are saying is that nothing can be proven to truly exist and that includes god also. I think religion has more trouble proving issues beyond doubt than science does.

ArtCatDom -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 7:18:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee I acknowledge and commend you for your beliefs. As I said, I lay my cards at the table of science. One day, IF it is ever shown to me, beyond a doubt, that there is scientific evidence that a higher entity exists, my stance will probably be re-evaluated. Until that day arrives, I believe in what I can see, touch, hear, and taste. Hmm, just some thoughts. Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science. Much of science is predicated on observations and theories that you cannot perceive with the senses listed. Again, just some thoughts. meow On the contrary, the senses are extremely scientifically based and proven, beyond a doubt. And yes, while science is based on observations and theories; it is also backed by research and factual data. Now that statement, I do not disagree with. I was simply responding to your post asking for proof beyond doubt (which even science does not provide) and your statement that you rely on your simple senses (while science depends on things we cannot perceive with them). meow

NastyDaddy -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 7:39:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee I acknowledge and commend you for your beliefs. As I said, I lay my cards at the table of science. One day, IF it is ever shown to me, beyond a doubt, that there is scientific evidence that a higher entity exists, my stance will probably be re-evaluated. Until that day arrives, I believe in what I can see, touch, hear, and taste. Hmm, just some thoughts. Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt, especially in science. Much of science is predicated on observations and theories that you cannot perceive with the senses listed. Again, just some thoughts. meow On the contrary, the senses are extremely scientifically based and proven, beyond a doubt. And yes, while science is based on observations and theories; it is also backed by research and factual data. She said IF it is ever shown to me, beyond a doubt... He said Nothing can be shown beyond all doubt... Beyond 'a doubt' infers a doubt could be 1 out of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000... (add zeros all day...) Beyond 'all doubt' infers 100 percent, or very close to that affect. This leaves quite a broad spectrum of doubt between the two criterion, so I tend to doubt that you are both speaking the same meaning of your undoubtedly spoken/stated criteria. Personally I don't like the term 'atheist', it rings too much like 'infidel', a term used by islamic undoubters towards doubters of their fine one size fits all religion... atheist is simply a parallel term for a parallel group of often extremely overbearing and zealous undoubters who will judge you as atheist if you do not agree with their heartfelt undoubts. They tend to be a bit more passive and don't blow themselves up in crowded public places, they primarily use 'guilt trip' methodology... "I know where I'm going when I die..." No doubt many will doubt what I'm saying but I doubt if their doubts will impact undoubters or their opposition doubters. Which came first the ameba or the higher evolved human thinking machine organ? Do ameba's go to heaven, or get to meet allah and get a wheelbarrow full of ameba gold and 12 browneyed virgin ameba's.... I seriously doubt it. It is interesting so many adhere to a philosophy we are all just inhabitants of test tubes... little tests and projects to test our faith in the creator.... that wonderful entity who gave us the beautiful test tube or petre dish to live in until they pull the cord on our part of their experiments.... undoubtedly a very strange concept, regardless of the label applied, or particular flavor of undoubter zeal.

Tikkiee -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 9:59:35 AM)
quote: atheist is simply a parallel term for a parallel group of often extremely overbearing and zealous undoubters who will judge you as atheist if you do not agree with their heartfelt undoubts. I have to disagree with you. I do not judge any person by their own beliefs. In fact, I embrace others ideals, even when they conflict with mine. I see all sides of the coin; I choose to stand on my side, and others choose to stand on theirs. But that does not mean that I do not see, and comprehend, all sides. From the sounds of it though, you are having quite the time trying to see past your own superiority. Shame, your arguments could have been constructive; instead they come across as sounding as nothing more than the ramblings of a fanatic.

ArtCatDom -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 10:58:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tikkiee quote: atheist is simply a parallel term for a parallel group of often extremely overbearing and zealous undoubters who will judge you as atheist if you do not agree with their heartfelt undoubts. I have to disagree with you. I do not judge any person by their own beliefs. In fact, I embrace others ideals, even when they conflict with mine. I see all sides of the coin; I choose to stand on my side, and others choose to stand on theirs. But that does not mean that I do not see, and comprehend, all sides. From the sounds of it though, you are having quite the time trying to see past your own superiority. Shame, your arguments could have been constructive; instead they come across as sounding as nothing more than the ramblings of a fanatic. In their defense, they may have painted with a broad brush but that assertion is generally true. Secular humanists (the most vocal and famous of atheists) are generally just as evangelical and irrational as any religious fundementalists. meow

Tikkiee -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 11:34:02 AM)
quote: Secular humanists (the most vocal and famous of atheists) are generally just as evangelical and irrational as any religious fundementalists. Very true. I will not argue that point. [:)]

carlsteel -> RE: Thoughts on Dog. (6/2/2006 11:50:58 AM)
It's a pleasure to contribute to this thread. It's especially gratifying because I'm always right. Now if I were only modest. 1. Don't shy from the word atheist. It is the correct academic term for someone does not believe in god. 2. I have, since I was a child been a member of the Unitarian Universalist churches. Plenty of atheists there, even a few of the ministers are. There is no dogma, that is to say offical doctrine. Hence the old saying no two Unitarians believe the same thing. Each individual has to make their own religious choices and decisions. Great if you have a critical, thinking mind. Lousy if you need to be told what to believe. i.e., what is truth. I belong to the religious humanist wing of the church. In the simplest words my religion is a tool kit for discovering the truth in life, about justice, the universe, morality, economics, public policy, and ethics. Or as it was once described back in the 1960's, the use of reason and the scientific method in religion. In short, I am a religious atheist. There is no room for superstition, bigotry or anti-intellectualism in my life.

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