RE: Sub Integrity

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LadyHibiscus -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 2:53:11 PM)
Miss Goth is right, I do tend to take people at face value. I am a brilliant liar and manipulator, but I don't live my life that way, and just don't expect that other people do either. Silly me.[8\|] I'm not sure how fluid the definition of integrity really is. Can it be that difficult to pin down ethical behaviour? Don't lie or mislead, attempt to be transparent, follow through on your promises, don't actively work to harm others... aren't those generally accepted "good things"? So often dominants are seen as the leaders, the ones with all the answers, and it's our job to mould the submissive to our will. Hogwash. Bollocks. Other words of similar ilk. We are all people and I hold everyone to the same standard--though I confess the one I hold myself to personally is higher. I am not going to lie about who I am and what I want---and I expect my submissives to be the same way. Recognizing those amazingly bad apples... Looking back on mine, (and really I am not counting H as a bad apple, he was a deeply damaged person, and I a rescuer, the depth of his mental illness was not deliberate on his part), I was dealing with a sociopath. A person who had (and has, I am sure) no connection to the rest of humanity, and certainly no concern for the debris trail he left behind. Though that debris trail is all in my mind, of course...

GloriousMorning -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 3:13:00 PM)
There are some very good points of view here, I especially appreciate your post, Lockit. I like how you have taken responsibilty for your own involvement, something I have been looking at in myself as well. I also appreciate those who have described to me what integrity looks like to them, as that was what I was initially thinking of. Perhaps you all know something I didn't think of, which many of you have proved to be the case. I've met several partners online, as well as offline. I have found that everyone I had engaged with seemed to have the same values, seemed altruistic, seemed to value respect and honor. Sometimes a betrayal (even a small one) can shatter that, and I've been fortunate that has only happened a scarce amount of times in my life. In evaluating new partners, this will be my primary focus, to measure my potential partners integrity before becoming too emotionally invested. This will take precedence over good looks, skill level, and "shiny shiny" cute boy/man candy, not to say it hasn't already, but I do tend to jump in blindly at times, and the whole "look before you leap" lesson isn't deeply ingrained. I'm a feeling intuitive person, not a logical, fact and statistical type, so I need to learn new skills in order to create balance in my search for a quality partner. In thinking of this, I've come to some good realizations about myself, and been able to do my own "reality check" so I do appreciate this a great deal.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 3:19:08 PM)
Sometimes it's hard not to see red flags everywhere!

GloriousMorning -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 3:28:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I'm not sure how fluid the definition of integrity really is. Can it be that difficult to pin down ethical behaviour? Don't lie or mislead, attempt to be transparent, follow through on your promises, don't actively work to harm others... aren't those generally accepted "good things"? Yes, those are what I would deem to be fundamental values, yet, what if I genuinely believed it was okay to lie, manipulate or let people down? What if I had no respect for how my own behaviours affect others? It would be terribly difficult for me then, to think of these things as being fundamentals within a relationship, wouldn't it? This is where the fluidity comes into play. I mean, if I was a cheater, could I really focus my energy on wondering whether my partner was faithful or not? This is where I have run into trouble. If they're doing it right, you don't know you are being mislead until it's too late. Because I have a tendency to look before I leap, I'm not looking for the warning signs, I'm not evaluating the situation logically before I make my decision to jump in. Something I need to look at in order to avoid continually suffering the consequence of that.

Lockit -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 3:45:18 PM)
LOL... Sometimes I have wondered if I was the queen of seeing red flags everywhere! You earn a few of those red flags waving at you by falling for them and then wonder if you can ever stop seeing the damn things! There is a fine line between jaded and wounded and able to allow people close. I know I had to take time outs to filter my own bull shit out of the mix. I had to wonder if my jaded or my protecting myself played into things or hindered them. What I learned in it all, was to trust myself, trust my own rules and when I do step out of my normal... have full control over myself and what goes on. When it becomes confusing to most I think... as I have seen some of the wisest dominants and women get into trouble was when they got confused about what was right to do. Don't we typically think we need to figure it out quickly? I know I do! lol Big mistake! Sit back... drink a wine or take a few breaths, step away and look back at it after a relaxing time and a good sleep. We want to do it right, for all concerned. Where I have gotten into trouble was when a situation presented itself where I had to weigh things out. Like that guy that seemed so wonderful as a submissive... was talking to lots of women, determining what he wanted and who he wanted. Shit... did I fuck up that time! lol Being non jealous... being open minded and trying to be fair... give the guy time... you know who you are and your worth... he will find what is right and if its you... cool... if not... he was a good one to know. Yeah... my ass! lol My gut told me to say... well darlin, you have talked enough with me to know me a lot... you go about your business and decide what you want... I may be here when you do, but until then... I wait for no man! Did I do that? Oh hell no! lol I kept being fair and open minded, not jealous and talking to him. Yup... he got me, but then... I let him. My thing is... know who you are and what you want. Don't compromise yourself because of need or want and don't prevent anything that could happen because of fear because you fucked up or let someone come into your life that fucked you up. Don't give them the power to call your life or end it. Don't we stop living life fully when we let someone that wounded us, keep us tied up in knots and can't let anyone else in? We have to take chances... just narrow the risks down and listen to your own balanced heart/mind that has evaluated it all. Take a step in... see how it goes... take another step. I will still take risks, but I do take them knowing fully what I am doing and making sure I have some protective measures in place. I won't stop living because of a wound and part of the risk is factored out by my seeing the mistakes I have made, addressing them and myself, allowing my own healing and because I did my own accounting, I think I faired better when I did step out again.

sunshinemiss -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 5:07:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I'm not sure how fluid the definition of integrity really is. Can it be that difficult to pin down ethical behaviour? Don't lie or mislead, attempt to be transparent, follow through on your promises, don't actively work to harm others... aren't those generally accepted "good things"? The reason I talk about honesty and the level of honesty and such, Hib, is exemplified very simply. Friend: How are you? Sunshine: I'm having kind of a rough day at work. I sometimes wonder if it's worth the hassle! versus Boss: How are you? Sunshine: I'm doing great! I've had a couple of challenges recently, and here's how I handled them... See what I'm saying? Not really lying per se, but definitely not telling the whole truth. The other reason I am thinking of it, is that when I'm explaining a story to my students, it becomes too complicated to explain some details, so I might say it happened to me or my friend or something. It's not the LETTER of the truth, but it is the SPIRIT of the truth. It's based on the ability of the person(s) in front of me. To me, that is where being kind and connecting and helping them with their listening exercises are more important than the absolute truth. To me, that is part of integrity. To someone who is close to me, I'm going to be honest. best, sunshine

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 5:23:41 PM)
Isn't that sort of spin part of tact, and appropriate communication? I don't see that in the same vein as creating a past out of whole cloth to please the listener.

Madame4a -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 5:45:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Isn't that sort of spin part of tact, and appropriate communication? I don't see that in the same vein as creating a past out of whole cloth to please the listener. Off topic from the OP, but pertinent to this discussion. I just had this happen. Darling boy and I have been meeting with a group of people to revive a very very sick but yearly event. We've been on this organizing committee for four months, the event is the first week in June and we've done nothing but go round and round. Nothing is done... and while I love and adore the chair, he's not making decisions or pushing anything. So... yesterday, we withdrew. I also think the planning process is not for us. Darling boy said "you must be honest and tell him exactly why we are withdrawing" ... I said.. well, that means we're going to be telling him everything that is wrong with him... because its alack of leadership and decision making. I wouldn't do it -- I really felt it served no purpose in this case to be honest.. and so I said... "we're a bit frustrated with the planning process and in the end, I am thinking this part of it is really not for us" ... definitely a part of the truth.. but the nicer truth... maybe I lied.. I don't know.. but I feel true to myself.. because we pulled out ... and I at least left with some explanation

MsLockitsKnyt -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 5:51:48 PM)
When beginning a relationship, my goal is to ascertain whether I am compatible with that person as quickly as reasonably possible. Do we have the same values, goals, ideals, etc. Because I want that, I make every effort to disclose myself to my potential partner, warts and all, so that she can make the same decision for herself. Doing so is not easy of course, because there is the possibility of rejection. In my mind, integrity in this sense is having the character necessary to keep your own walls to a minimum so that the other person has the ability to choose for themselves. At least initially, that is the only thing that matters to me. In the sense that I understand the OP, that is my definition of integrity.

GloriousMorning -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 6:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsLockitsKnyt When beginning a relationship, my goal is to ascertain whether I am compatible with that person as quickly as reasonably possible. Do we have the same values, goals, ideals, etc. Because I want that, I make every effort to disclose myself to my potential partner, warts and all, so that she can make the same decision for herself. Doing so is not easy of course, because there is the possibility of rejection. In my mind, integrity in this sense is having the character necessary to keep your own walls to a minimum so that the other person has the ability to choose for themselves. At least initially, that is the only thing that matters to me. In the sense that I understand the OP, that is my definition of integrity. Thank you for your input here, it's always nice to hear some one who on the other end, seems to understand the intent behind seeking integrity for myself and those who I choose to be involved with. I've many experienced times where, when given certain information, have chosen to move on. It's almost never pleasant, but I always felt grateful towards the other person who respected me enough to show integrity and made little issue of it. Having experienced the opposite of that as well, I never walked away feeling like I could respect them, and it was always full of unnecessary drama and despair. Besides the obvious dominant's perspective, I like making decisions, it makes me feel in control of my own life. When such pertinent information is intentionally withheld, it makes me feel as though the choice, and therefore control, is being taken away from me. Now tell me how many people who identify as dominant, enjoys having their own control taken from them? It's a respect thing, it says to me that a person who respects me, will also value his own integrity in understanding my need for the whole picture in order to make an informed choice.

GloriousMorning -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 7:00:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Isn't that sort of spin part of tact, and appropriate communication? I don't see that in the same vein as creating a past out of whole cloth to please the listener. Well that's the thing about the shiny outside, it will always reflect back to you what it is you wish to see. Gotta figure out the ways to get past that, or get a really bitchin pair of shades!

MsLockitsKnyt -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 7:09:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GloriousMorning quote: ORIGINAL: MsLockitsKnyt When beginning a relationship, my goal is to ascertain whether I am compatible with that person as quickly as reasonably possible. Do we have the same values, goals, ideals, etc. Because I want that, I make every effort to disclose myself to my potential partner, warts and all, so that she can make the same decision for herself. Doing so is not easy of course, because there is the possibility of rejection. In my mind, integrity in this sense is having the character necessary to keep your own walls to a minimum so that the other person has the ability to choose for themselves. At least initially, that is the only thing that matters to me. In the sense that I understand the OP, that is my definition of integrity. Thank you for your input here, it's always nice to hear some one who on the other end, seems to understand the intent behind seeking integrity for myself and those who I choose to be involved with. I've many experienced times where, when given certain information, have chosen to move on. It's almost never pleasant, but I always felt grateful towards the other person who respected me enough to show integrity and made little issue of it. Having experienced the opposite of that as well, I never walked away feeling like I could respect them, and it was always full of unnecessary drama and despair. Besides the obvious dominant's perspective, I like making decisions, it makes me feel in control of my own life. When such pertinent information is intentionally withheld, it makes me feel as though the choice, and therefore control, is being taken away from me. Now tell me how many people who identify as dominant, enjoys having their own control taken from them? It's a respect thing, it says to me that a person who respects me, will also value his own integrity in understanding my need for the whole picture in order to make an informed choice. I certainly understand a dominant not wanting to cede control. From the other side, how can a submissive truly consent to submission without also having the information necessary for them to make an informed choice? I do believe this is an issue much larger than D/s relationships. Unfortunately, our society is a me first, only me and me now group of folks who want everything except responsibility and accountability. Teach me how to solve that problem and I can solve the rest of our issues.

GloriousMorning -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 7:35:36 PM)
quote: I do believe this is an issue much larger than D/s relationships. Unfortunately, our society is a me first, only me and me now group of folks who want everything except responsibility and accountability. Teach me how to solve that problem and I can solve the rest of our issues. Oh, I do agree to some extent, but I truly believe that empathy is the solution to the issue. Sadly, it is a personality trait that one develops in their earlier more formidable years. I cannot solve the issue in grown adults, beyond raising awareness that this is important to me. In my own personal life, I feel I have done a fairly good job of instilling that in my own wee ones, but for some, it just never had the chance to develop.

sunshinemiss -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/7/2012 10:09:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus Isn't that sort of spin part of tact, and appropriate communication? I don't see that in the same vein as creating a past out of whole cloth to please the listener. Oh sure sure, darling... I just always like to add that little wrinkle in the "I'm ALWAYS honest" argument that I hear people spouting off. There's something about privacy that includes a certain lack of honesty which is also about integrity imo. And besides, I just like to have these friendly debates with hothouse flowers such as your lovely self! [:)]

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/8/2012 6:58:22 AM)
I just like to be sure I understand and all! It being Math Season!![:D]

BoxwineForBrunch -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/8/2012 7:50:08 AM)
sometimes i wear glasses because i look cute in glasses, even though i have like top gun fighter pilot level vision. basically never trust me. i am always straight frontin

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/9/2012 5:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Madame4a maybe I lied.. I don't know.. but I feel true to myself.. because we pulled out ... and I at least left with some explanation Perhaps this is an example of integrity at work? No? A wise person once told me ... evaluate based on actions, not words. To which i would add, You see integrity ... not use the word. Integrity is an expression and action ... the word is used to describe what You see. Although i will add ... i feel darling boy had a better suggestion for handling that situation. The "leader" can not improve the situation, if he doesn't know what is wrong. Which, in turn requires integrity on the "leader"'s part ... too! [:D] Ya know, the description could get really complex! [;)]

GloriousMorning -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/10/2012 7:51:52 AM)
Integrity to me, is definately something I see, or feel, which is why I understand it is difficult to put into words. To me, integrity feels like respect, like honesty, accountability, responsibility, and communication. I would not expect those things from my prospective partner unless I intended to commit to those things myself, no matter the power dynamic between us. I admittedly, have made mistakes along the way (gasp! A Domme...make mistakes?), but I do believe that I have done my best at being accountable for those mistakes. I have learned from them. Not that all is ever to be forgiven, but to me, shows a sense of integrity on my part and I learn to forgive myself. Some things I have learned so far: Generally, a person with integrity will likely do what they say they will (we all understand that life has it's hiccups, and how we communicate those is important too). If you have arrangements with them, they keep to them and have a basic respect for your time and effort. They are willing to take the time to know me on a human level, before and whilst jumping into the bedroom/dungeon. They are empathetic to the needs of others as well as their own, and willing to communicate in a respectful way. If you get the feeling it's all about them, perhaps it is, which is no fun for anyone, Domme or sub alike. They value honesty amongst those they care about even when it's difficult to be, and are willing to be vulnerable to that end. These are the types of qualities that I would like to see in my partner, and while it may not always be the case and it may not always solve the problem, I would be more likely to respect them all said, if they showed integrity.

kalikshama -> RE: Sub Integrity (2/12/2012 5:14:42 AM)
I moved back to MA from Florida because I was unable to create a life there in which I was living in integrity. More on that later, but here's wikipedia on integrity: "Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Integrity can be regarded as the opposite of hypocrisy,[1] in that it regards internal consistency as a virtue, and suggests that parties holding apparently conflicting values should account for the discrepancy or alter their beliefs. The word "integrity" stems from the Latin adjective integer (whole, complete).[2] In this context, integrity is the inner sense of "wholeness" deriving from qualities such as honesty and consistency of character. As such, one may judge that others "have integrity" to the extent that they act according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold."

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