RE: Consensual Non-consent (Full Version)

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fucktoyprincess -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 3:08:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon
I don't see "obey without question" as something that is always necessarily a part of every consensual non-consent dynamic. Really it depends on how the individual relationship is structured/set up. Personally, I am perfectly allowed to voice my objections and opinions at any time--heck, I'm required to do it. If I have something to say, my Master always wants to hear it. Thus, I can't say that I obey without question. I may question him and challenge his opinion with my own, but in the end if he still disagrees with me, I will obey him. But I can always speak freely.
Our relationship is structured the same way.


I do think these types of relationships that OsideGirl and RaspberryLemon describe are easier for people to understand. And just so people on this thread are aware, my comments, as this thread has progressed, have been focused more on CNC that involves a combination of "obey without question" and the objective of internal enslavement, as that seems to have been the combination that more people on this thread found difficult to grapple with. I do want to be clear to those of you in CNC who have structured things differently (where the submissive can freely voice objections), or where the submissive is quite clear that they have the right to leave at any point, etc. that those types of situations seem to me to be far less risky, and so I think one would worry less in that instance that things could go very wrong. I do completely respect the fact that there is no one definition of CNC, and that what many of us are focusing on discussing is one specific approach to CNC that seems more prone to pitfalls. I do not want some of my comments to be construed as applying to CNC generally, as I know many of you are in relationships that are structured in a very different way from obey without question and with the objective of internal enslavement.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 3:16:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am not excusing the behavior


Thank you for clarifying that.

I do hope you will find the time to share a story with us. I think those of us who have been following this thread with sincerity would find it insightful.




xBullx -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 4:53:14 PM)

-General Reply- (kinda)

Earlier today I was informed about this thread and that it pertained to subject matter I had a great deal of experience with so I thought I’d have a look see for myself.

I haven’t been posting on any of the forums a lot lately, I’ve been excessively busy and a good deal of the forums subject matter being discussed normally didn’t provoke me to respond.

So I started reading this thread after being told it might interest me and even after reading a particular post that applied to me, I didn’t see any real reason to pen a post of my own. Then I read on, I read on to witness all the jurist prudence that one might expect from an elementary school mock trial to teach third graders about the American Judicial System.

And even at that I wasn’t all that compelled to compose a post that shouldn’t need to be made simply to allude to the obvious. But, it came to mind that if the author that constructed the post that would interest me had sincere intent, and those intentions were purely educational, it seems to me that this poster would have redirected the conversation away from the admonishment of her former “master” and back to the topic of being aware of important circumstances, and since the assertion that this thread is education and not condemnation, I concluded I should be sure that all individuals bearing witness to such are being honest with themselves and their conclusions.

As noted, one recent post made by a female poster defined her version of a dramatic and it seems even horrific experience she had as a “slave”, or was it “victim” (it’s much more stimulating to discuss the traumatic experiences of an innocent victim as compared to a fully cognizant participant). How neglect, cruelty and what she stated were broken promises nearly lead to a potentially catastrophic conclusion (thankfully it didn't). I mean what kind of asshole could be so cruel to a completely innocent, naive and genuinely sweet girl. Well, I am sure some of you know who this might be, and others will catch on in time.

Now while my intentions are anything but to discredit or damage the reputation of the female poster, it is my intention to point out to all you self-righteous souls that you haven’t even heard the entirety of her side of this story(and shouldn’t, it’s really none of your business). Concurrently nary a soul here posting in this thread is aware of the perspective held by the other two parties mentioned within said relationship, not to mention the many other witnesses to a great many moments of the said matter.

You see there are always at least three sides to any single story; the two sides of opposition and then that of the objective story that resides somewhere in between the lines of personal explanation. Now I doubt that the other side of this female’s story is of the mind, or mood to air out his perspective to simply have it validated in a court of public opinion where thoughtful consideration and balanced deliberation has already been seen to be, absent.

In any event and to add to the educational value of this thread I suppose it bears mention that dominants do also find themselves mislead, manipulated, deceived as well as letdown or even, dare I say, lied too; not to mention, physically, emotionally, personally or publically damaged. While it is the perceived role and responsibility of the dominant to be in charge, use forward thinking, manage all possible contingencies and “sacrifice his very soul for the health, happiness and welfare of the “slave” girl”, it is quite easier said than done.

It bears mention that at times suspicious thoughts and hesitant actions can be inspired in the dominant to believe other parties involved no longer have his best interest at heart. A man might even be driven to move a bit too deliberately with regards to another’s health, at least to some degree if he were to suspect perfidious intent. Additionally I know no one that would refuse medical attention to someone that didn’t themselves dismiss their absolute need of such consideration. So I suspect that those that jumped to that conclusion were a bit quick with the switch.

So you see it isn’t simply the submissive that must be wary of unforeseen consequences or the possibility of future vendetta.

But at that, one less than desirable outcome shouldn’t deter others from seeking that which their heart seeks, simply understand that truth on all fronts and most importantly with what it is that you yourself seek is of the utmost import. If any of you read my posts on other sections of this forum you will know that I lobby vigorously to the point that we must work to no end to remove the fantasy factor from the long term M/s dynamic. It is this fantasy of what might be that clouds our judgment in seeing what actually is, for both the dominant and the submissive.

Oh, and to conclude, Consensual Non-Consent is a fantasy and description of futility. The only time a submissive will ever consent absolutely to a dominant is after both have established unchallanged confidence and or trust in one another.

I hope this post from a cruel, abusive and potentially sociopathic asshole has helped, at least in some small way.

Disclaimer: please note that some of the previous statements are dripping with sarcasm and at times bits of disparagement.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 5:52:53 PM)

Bull I want to thank you for your response. Not sure what to say other than, it is difficult when one can see how a topic may go.

You are correct on many things, especially that there are more than two sides. Many are quick to judge, and do not realize that. Many also do not realize that intent means a lot, and sometimes things happen no matter how forward thinking we may be, as we base our information on what is given us, which is not always accurate as well.


Live well,
Orion




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 6:07:03 PM)

You're both people I've come to respect here at CM, I don't know anything about any of this, but thanks for sharing your perspective. It is easy to forget sometimes that there are so many different views of the same situation.




IrishMist -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 6:20:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

You're both people I've come to respect here at CM, I don't know anything about any of this, but thanks for sharing your perspective. It is easy to forget sometimes that there are so many different views of the same situation.

I will second this [:)]




Ishtarr -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 7:43:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Based on Ishtarr's experiences, I have the following specific comments. First, things that were promised to her were never fulfilled. Again, to the extent that things are discussed up front and agreed to, it seems clear to me that a Dominant cannot unilaterally change what was promised and still consider the original consent, consent. Again, I am not sure if things changed such that the Dominant was no longer able to fulfill his promises, or, perhaps, he never intended on fulfilling the promises to begin with. It is a sad reality of life, but people do lie.



I don't think this was a case where he actually lied.
In any event, he never felt like he made me any promises. And in a literal sense, he didn't, as in: he never told me "I promise".
What he did do was tell me how things would be, as in: "you won't have to spend any money on things other than classes; or "I will provide for medical bills" and so on.

I took those statements to mean he promised something, he viewed things differently. I don't really think it matters who is right or not, or even if somebody was right, because in the end, the problem was a fundamental miscommunication that made us bother enter the relationship on different terms and with different expectations.

And yes, some of the things he had indicated he intended to do (and I took as him promising he'd do) weren't possible because circumstances beyond either of our controls. I wasn't a case of him just on a whim deciding that he didn't felt like it anymore, or at least, that's not how it came across to me.

In fact, one of the things I'm most angry about at him, is the very fact that he told me of some of his intents in a form that allowed me to mistake them for a promise, prior to moving.
Because of his personal view on things, he doesn't owe a slave anything, and he doesn't promise a slave anything. Which if the case, would have been fine for me to live with and accept, and wouldn't have prevented me from moving. That being clearer to me going in to things would have fundamentally changed everything from day one.
The fact that he spoke of certain intents in a way that could easily be mistaken by me as a promise, even if he never actual intended to promise me anything, made that I had certain expectations of him that perhaps I shouldn't have had.

These things I took to be promises weren't crucial to me considering moving in with him, but because he had created expectations -intentionally or not- he created subsequent disappointment and distrust when those expectations where not met.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Second, not providing appropriate medical care when necessary is abusive, period. I don't think anyone can consent out of appropriate medical care.



I agree, though it wasn't as simple as that.
I don't think he abused me when it comes to denying medical care. My ankle showed surprising little bruising or swell, considering it afterwards turned out to have an actual break, and I never was unable to walk on it. Walking caused me pain for months, but I doubt he ever had a clear picture to what extend it actually hurt.

I didn't want to displease him more than anything else, and though I told him I was in pain, I never insisted to see a doctor. I never adequately vocalized exactly how much pain I was in, in a fear to be an annoyance to him.
That fear wasn't something he caused. I'm pretty sure that if I had insisted on medical attention, it would have been provided. I'm pretty sure that if I had insisted on more rest, it would have been provided. I'm pretty sure that if I had adequately communicated, his actions would have been totally different. I'm pretty sure that if there had been more external signs of a serious problem, his actions would have been totally different. I'm pretty sure that if he had the faintest idea that something more than some rest and an temporary adaptation of protocol was necessary, his actions would have been totally different.

Now, he was responsible for me as his property, and maybe to whatever extend in fault for not playing it safe and seeing a doctor just in case. You can also say he was responsible for talking to me in a way that made it absolutely certain he knew what the extend of my injury was and finding out exactly the extend of the problems I was having, and he may have neglected to do that in full. However, unintentional oversight doesn't equal abuse.

Without me expressing in full exactly the level of pain and discomfort I was in, and without the normal obvious physical signs, there isn't really a way he could have know. He's not an x-ray machine, and he can't read minds, so without being provided the full information, chances where high he was going to make a faulty judgment, which is what I think happened in this case.

Both of us could have done a number of things to make sure things would have went differently, neither of us did. But exactly because I didn't either, I strongly disagree that what he did was abusive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Three, there should be a discussion up front about what to do if things go badly. Just as in the vanilla world, something like a pre-nuptial handles things like financial issues after the dissolution of a marriage, in a similar way, even though it may not deal with financial matters, there ought to be a break-up scenario in place. But, of course, if you are dealing with a Dominant who does not keep his word, we are back to my comment about promises being kept.



Yes it should have, and it didn't happen.
He should have had a plan, and he didn't.
I should have asked him about it before moving in, and I didn't.

Lessons learned there, on both sides I think.
People fuck up sometimes. People make mistakes. Even dominants/masters/whatevers.
Vanillas generally don't have a contingency plan for what to do in case of a break up.
It's probably smarter if they would have one.
It's probably even more important, and even smarter to have such a contingency plan when a D/s M/s or a CNC type relationship is attempted.

There wasn't one in this case. That was dumb. Of both of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

When you say you wouldn't hesitate to do it all again, you say that from the perspective of someone who finally had the strength to leave.



When I said that I'd do it all again, I clarified that with the fact that it would be knowing what I know now. (If I didn't know what I knew now back then, I still would have done it because I was compelled to do so, both by him and by my own nature.)

If I could go back with hindsight and choose to do it again or do something else, I wouldn't doubt for a second I'd choose him again.
Precisely because if I had known then what I know now, I wouldn't have made half the mistakes I did back then.

I would have spoke out more, as soon as things started to bother me.
I wouldn't have been so afraid to quiz him about the details of how things would be, in better and worst times.
I wouldn't have been so stupid to not push for medical attention when I needed it.
I wouldn't be so obsessed with trying to approach this mythical entity of perfection that I caused me to try to hide my faults and flaws from him in order to be what I thought he wanted me to be.

In short, I would have actually tried to fucking talk to him -which, for anybody who personally knows me, sure must sound ironic- instead of bottling everything up inside until and explosion was simply inevitable, and my personal resentment for the situation had grown to a point where it was simple beyond his control.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

What if you had committed suicide, or been denied medical treatment that resulted in severe injury or death? Would you be looking down from heaven still saying you would do it all again? I highly doubt it. I am not trying to be harsh by that statement - I am saying that you have that nostalgic perspective because you survived the relationship and were strengthened, in part, by having to find the strength to leave. Part of what you learned was your own inner strength. But that actually required leaving.



I have nostalgia, because a good thing went to waste, because both of us where incredible stupid at times, in very different ways.
If I had committed suicide, I would have had the same nostalgia, because the same good thing would have gone to waste, just in a more violent and explosive way.

If I had survived the relationship but wasn't strengthened by it, it wouldn't have been the relationship I was actually in.
Because for me not to have been strengthen by the time I did spend with him, he would have had to be a totally different man than he actually is.
And that's not just the case for me... as far as I can tell from the relatively short time I've spend with him, everybody he's close with is strengthened by the relationship they have with him -though sometimes in very different ways- that's just the type of man he is, and the influence he has on the people around him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Five, it saddens me greatly (and it should sadden the BDSM community) that someone who was interested in this type of dynamic was pushed to the brink by this relationship such that they almost committed suicide and are still working through the emotional, sexual and psychological issues from that relationship - in other words, this person was not in a position to be of service to another in a true way until those issues were resolved. Nothing upsets me more than Dominants who treat submissives as "throw-aways" - i.e., not my issue if they are never able to serve again. We are each entitled to our lives and our journeys. Paths cross at different times. But someone who leaves someone "injured" in some way, has absolutely done a wrong. BDSM does not absolve this.



People aren't perfect just because they practice whatever form of power exchange.
You're right that those in control should have very high standards for themselves, but even if they do, that's no guarantee that everything will work out all perfect and fine.
Relationships of any kind are complicated, and sometimes they go horrible wrong and leave long lasting wounds. Power exchange are in no way exclusive in that way.
Relationships can be so finicky that sometimes, even when nobody is really to blame, they can still go horrible wrong. The fact that an experience leaves scars doesn't necessarily imply that somebody was at fault. Sometimes shit just really does happen and really gets beyond everybody's control.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

And if you ever consider CNC again, I think you will have a better sense of what to look for, what pace to take, what questions to ask, etc.



This is exactly the reason why I wouldn't for a second hesitate to go through the experience again, even if I knew for a fact that the outcome would be exactly the same.
I didn't have another choice back then, due to the type of person that I am. So no matter what knowledge I did or didn't have, the choice would have been the same.
And all in all, considering the crossroad I was on when I met him, things could have -and probably would have- turned out a hell of a lot worse than they did if I had done something but go forward with him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

While it is possible that you may never trust anyone in the same way again, I don't think it is a bad thing in life to start from the perspective of mistrust and allow the other person to earn/gain your trust. What you want is the feeling that you had with this person/couple. And that is something I can promise you, you will be capable of feeling again. That feeling, however, is not actually connected to him uniquely. I don't know if what I am saying makes sense to you, but I hope it does.



I know the feeling doesn't connect to him personally, but as of this moment it still does, because I cannot help but draw the instantaneous comparison between him and anything M/s related that crosses my path, which in turn brings out immediate and aggravated hostility and distrust.
I know that comparison will slowly fade. It already is, though there is a long ways to go.

I am very lucky to have found and married a man who has been infinitely patient with slowly winning my trust piece by piece, and slowly try to replace old memories and trigger points with new ones.
I know the day will come that my old relationship and my old Master is not longer the metric by which everything -or certain things- in my life is measured.

Hell I'm to the point I can make and bring my husband coffee with it creating instant flashback feelings, resentment, shutdown and hostility. It might not seem like much to some, but it would have been unthinkable just a couple of months ago.

___

As an afterthought I would like to say that, yes, every stories has two sides and the difference between those stories may be night and day without either party lying about what happened.
The way we experience things that happen often taints our feelings and memories of those things much heavier than the facts of what actually happened does.

I didn't write my previous post to vilify my previous relationship. I have no interest at all in getting any further in the argument over whether or not he was wrong, or an abuser, or whatever. Things aren't that black and white, and are especially not able to be determined from a single post with any remote level of accuracy. People who weren't there will not know, and should not speak, or even form an opinion on such things. That wasn't the fucking objective of my post.

This thread has dealt extensively with the questions of "but that's dangerous... what IF things go wrong?".

I wanted to offer a perspective -one side- of what somebody experienced when things in such a relationship did go wrong.
I wanted to emphasize of that perspective offered to be -and here it seems I gravely failed- the notion that DESPITE the fact that things went wrong, I still don't regret the experience, nor do I think I had another path I could have taken, nor do I think that the experience was a bad one for me after all is taken into account.

I wanted to emphasize that for some people these types of relationships aren't just a dangerous alternative to a more "safe" format of relationship, but are quite literally, the only way they can achieve the path to relationships.

Yes things need to be considered in advance, and that's why it's good that threads like there are made and information is shared.

But because of the nature of the people usually drawn to these types of relationships they are not generally bad for the ones involved... even when most everything goes wrong.

Ishtar





Ishtarr -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/11/2012 8:02:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Ishtarr I do have a question if you can answer. Based upon your experience, do you think it is wise for all of the people involved to spend more time with together without the constraints of the relationship before giving consent? I ask this due to the agreement of things that were not provided. Do you believe that would have been evident enough to avoid being in that situation? And if not, do you believe so because of your unique situation or just by the nature of the type of relationship energy and people involved?


I don't know about other people, but in our case that wouldn't have been possible.
There was no "prior or outside" the constraints of the dynamic.
He was the force that compelled me to desire to please him from the start.
It really was as simple as that... everything else just came from that. There was no start to our "dynamic", which is probably why it never really had a definitive endpoint either... at least for me.

I couldn't possible have spend time with before giving consent, because I never really gave consent. I never agreed to anything, or to be anything to him. Things just "were"... they didn't even ever stop "being"... instead, they just got pushed to being unattainable to maintain due to layers of circumstances, mistakes, and miscommunications added on top of one another.

Things couldn't have been avoided for us by trying to spend time together without "consent" given. I believe that the only way things blowing up for us could have been prevented by us both already having had the experience of things blowing up a previous times.

Based on what I've seen/heard from other people attempting these kinds of dynamics, they always -or at least very commonly- seem to blow up on the first time either party attempts it. It seems it actually takes the learning experience of failing at it at least once to be grounded enough and have learned enough do and don'ts to go into it a second time on a footing that will actually hold.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 6:16:56 AM)

Ishtarr, thank you again for the follow up on this.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 6:20:33 AM)

The following case is true, though nothing other than relating this will ever be put forth. If it makes the reader feel better to think of this as a hypothetical that is fine as well. I have attempted to recount what happened from interview, personal experience in the matter, and court documents. My perception may not be as objective, so I will try to relate just facts. From the point of her meeting the man that helped her, to the point the slave finally left was a period of approx 9 months.

~FR~

I will relate a true worst case scenario that I have firsthand knowledge of, so that we can see the bad side of things. Later I will post about a true story that at this time shows some of the positive and wonderful things about this type of relationship.

There was a girl that a very young age started visiting BDSM chat rooms on one of the large ISP sites at that time. She already had inclinations towards D/s, as well as bondage and S&M. After a few months she met a guy who interested her and they began corresponding privately. They began a long term relationship via the internet and phone. This went on for a little over three years, during which the girl was introduced to a sub-culture of BDSM that treated slaves as chattel, and ingrained into them that to be feminine they must obey and be pleasing. Throughout this time, certain emotional and psychological aspects of the girl were identified, and the now long distance owner used these in combination with other protocols he instituted to begin the internal enslavement of the girl. These techniques and their subsequent results were never spoken about to the girl. Contact between the two happened several times a day, and she led a double life as many do, one which her family and friends saw as a regular vanilla life, and another where she was the absolute slave of another.

When this girl reached the age so that she could travel unrestricted, she flew to where the owner is, and spent a few weeks with him. During this time, various protocols and rituals were established. These protocols and rituals were designed to continue the internal enslavement of the girl, and maintain an atmosphere of complete control. Discipline was harsh and swift, while reward was generous combined with praise. The girl was taught to speak in third person speech, as if she was not a person, and this was done to reinforce the elimination of her sense of self, so that the internal enslavement could be strengthened. After several weeks she flew back to where she lived.

For the next few months they continued a long term relationship, with various things done to maintain the internal enslavement, and continue the process. During this time a severe yearning began in the girl and she did not feel stable without her owner. Certain things were done to make the girl co-dependent on the owner, so that she began to question even the smallest things, relying on him more and more to make decisions for her. She was rewarded more with praise for bringing these things to her owner, and also admonished when she made decisions based on self determination. She was often referred to as the perfect slave when she did well, but demeaned and emotionally wounded with words when she did not do as expected.

She again flew out to spend several weeks with her owner. During this time the protocol and techniques continued. The owner began using more “good hand, bad hand” techniques to establish his authority. The girl was kept naked, except for a small colored ribbon around her ankle and a metal collar. When going out, she was expected to wear dresses, light make up, walk just behind and to the left, and many of the other things that are practiced in many M/s relationships. During this visit the owner professed love for the girl, and the girl had always professed love for her owner. When it came time to fly back to the girl’s home, the owner forbade it and told her that she would stay with him from now on. This made them both happy, though she left behind a finance and family that knew nothing of this aspect of her life.

The girl was allowed limited contact with her family, but always in the presence of the owner. Within a few months the girl was made to get a job as an adult entertainment dancer, I use this term as she was trained in dance, and she performed and not just jiggled. The owner soon after quit his job. She made good money, and they moved into a nicer place. While at home she was not allowed to wear clothes, except for her collar and the colored ribbon on her ankle. She was not allowed to sit on any furniture, and even had her meals on the floor. Her meals were often the left over from the owner’s meal. She had to speak in third person, ask to do anything and everything (which is part of IE training), she was even required to ask permission to enter a room, leave the owners presence, and ask permission to speak directly to him. In addition to working she maintained the home.

After approx 2 years she became pregnant. When she was close to showing too much to work, the owner showed up to pick her up to work, and drove to the airport. There he picked up another girl that he had been in contact with, and told the original girl that this would be her sister slave, and that the new girl would serve him while she was too pregnant to do otherwise. This was a complete shock to her, not only was she dealing with the hormones of pregnancy, keeping up with her service, but she had the idea that they would be a family. Trust broken, which led to an emotional episode that night, where she packed her bags and left while the owner was away.

She returned to her home state and family, trying to pick up where she left off. Multiple times a day the owner called, trigger some of the IE as well as playing on her guilt issues. After a couple of months she returned as she felt that she had broken her word and was actually to blame for the situation. After returning she was punished severely, to the extent of being locked in a closet and given food and water by the sister slave for two days. After this she tried to continue as she had, but the owner now gave the majority of his attention to the new girl.

Fast forward to her being seven month pregnant and another emotional episode, as the isolation and complications with the pregnancy had taken their toll. She left again for her family, but this time it only took a week for her to return. Via Stockholm and IE, the conditioning was too much. She gave birth to a son, by herself in a hospital. She was taken there via ambulance, as the owner and only vehicle was gone. Later that day the owner showed up to see his son, was there for about a half hour and gone. He did spend some time explaining to her that since she was a slave, their son was actually his.
The girl went back to work two months after giving birth. During that time she was not spoken with much, and the owner continued to spend the majority of his time with the new girl. The new girl was not required to do any housework, and it was still the responsibility of the first girl, along with caring for her son, and now she was going back to work.
It just so happened that at this time the girl met someone at her work, and became friends with this man. The man had experience in CNC relationships and other areas of BDSM. He was not a regular of the club, but was there often as he did work for the owner. As their friendship grew, this man learned more of the situation and began in his mind to assess the degree of what he considered mistreatment. This man determined that the girl needed to leave the situation she was in, but knew that there needed to be a counter process to the IE established. Over the next few months, in their discussions, things were mentioned bringing her infant son into the equation, and illuminating the things that her owner was doing.

Finally at one point, when things were at their worse, the girl was locked in the closet, fed, watered, and allowed to use the bathroom only twice a day. Her infant son was kept from her, and the owner berated her constantly, telling her that he would take his son and she would never see him. During one episode he beat her with a phone book, and forced her to beat her own head on the floor, in addition to using a belt that it later was approximated that he had hit her in excess of 50 times on her butt, back, and back of her legs. Driven into a near psychotic break, the girl called her friend.

Her friend happened to only be a few minutes away, and he immediately called 911. He explained that there was an assault in progress, domestic violence and the victim was in the kitchen with a knife, waiting for the abuser to return from the store. Her friend arrived before the police, and saw that the owner’s car was in the drive way. He grabbed a bat from his back seat, walked to the door with the bat held just behind him and knocked. When the owner answered the door, he used the bat to take out the owner’s knee, hit him a few more times in the side and back, and then stepped over him. The girl was naked, so he grabbed a blanket from nearby, scooped up the car seat that had her son in it, and went outside as the police arrived.

The owner was arrested for battery, and later charges added were aggravated stalking, and violation of a RO. This had been the third incident in four months, the previous times the girl had returned to the owner. It took the real possibility of her losing her son, her life, and she finally snapped.

The conclusion to this is that the girl was taken out of state, to be with her family so she could heal. Her friend that had helped, was more than a friend and was deeply in love with her and her son. The owner was kept in jail for several months, denied bail because of the threat he posed. When he was finally given bail an order of monitoring (ankle bracelet) was also issued. The girl has several emotional and psychological issues, one being PTSD but due to her being abused by a councilor at a young age should would not seek professional help. Once back home, even though she was living with the man who had saved her, she buried the memories and would not talk about them. She eventually told the man, her friend, that she no longer wanted to be with him, in any capacity. The man realized that she needed to heal, and that he was likely the only thing left in her life that reminded her of that awful time.

In Feb of 2009, two and a half years after the incident, the previous owner entered a plea of guilty to two felony counts and a misdemeanor count. He was given 11 years suspended sentence, and part of the order was that he could have no contact with the girl or her son, unless he first established paternity and then the court reserved the right to establish and monitor the visitation. In April of 2008, the girl returned to the man who had saved her, seeking out a CNC relationship, and over the years the man has assisted her in getting over a lot of her emotional and psychological issues, to the point that it has been over two years since an episode of PTSD. With the help of a Dr the girl has been seeing, she is under medication for severe anxiety, and other health related issues from that time. Her now owner has adopted her son, and they live pretty happily together and continue to assist her with her self esteem, guilt, and PTSD, all the time using IE methods to combat the emotional issues and reprogram her so that she can operate on her own if need be. There is a savings account and legal documents in place if anything happens to her current owner, including mental or physical incapacitation.

The girl’s previous owner to this day still tries to find her location, even though he is under order to not do so. Several times he has been charged with breaking probation, and has gotten off of each charge.

Afterword: The previous owner has a degree in Psychology, and was discovered to have been a member of a group of people on the internet that discussed the conditioning of slaves, but with no ethical standards to guide them. The previous owner had been in the Military, and believed to have been trained in Psychological Operations area, but the subpoena for his Military record was declined. The only thing that was made available was that he was dishonorably discharged because of previous domestic abuse charges, which his plea in that case was to a lesser charge. His psych profile would not be provided, but a current psych profile ordered by the court indicated strong evidence that he had a narcissistic personality, with other related pathologies.

The girl still lives in fear that one day she will be found, and fears that the conditioning may still be there, though there is no indication of this. The girl still is unable to seek professional assistance due to anxiety attacks that happen even when the issue is brought up by her Doctor. The girl currently lives a happy life, with a man she loves and loves her, her son, and family pets. CNC and IE are still used with the girl, but in a proper way, and her issues have gotten better over time.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 6:23:15 AM)

To all: Thank you for being involved in this discussion. It has helped more than many of you may realize. I will read responses, and try to respond in an objective manner, but that may not be possible at this time.

I will try and make time to relate a positive CNC case, that shows many of the things that must be established to increase the chance of success. These things can, and should, be established in any relationship.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 6:47:56 AM)

^^ looking forward to reading that. =)




LaTigresse -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 7:21:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Ishtarr I do have a question if you can answer. Based upon your experience, do you think it is wise for all of the people involved to spend more time with together without the constraints of the relationship before giving consent? I ask this due to the agreement of things that were not provided. Do you believe that would have been evident enough to avoid being in that situation? And if not, do you believe so because of your unique situation or just by the nature of the type of relationship energy and people involved?


I don't know about other people, but in our case that wouldn't have been possible.
There was no "prior or outside" the constraints of the dynamic.
He was the force that compelled me to desire to please him from the start.
It really was as simple as that... everything else just came from that. There was no start to our "dynamic", which is probably why it never really had a definitive endpoint either... at least for me.

I couldn't possible have spend time with before giving consent, because I never really gave consent. I never agreed to anything, or to be anything to him. Things just "were"... they didn't even ever stop "being"... instead, they just got pushed to being unattainable to maintain due to layers of circumstances, mistakes, and miscommunications added on top of one another.

Things couldn't have been avoided for us by trying to spend time together without "consent" given. I believe that the only way things blowing up for us could have been prevented by us both already having had the experience of things blowing up a previous times.

Based on what I've seen/heard from other people attempting these kinds of dynamics, they always -or at least very commonly- seem to blow up on the first time either party attempts it. It seems it actually takes the learning experience of failing at it at least once to be grounded enough and have learned enough do and don'ts to go into it a second time on a footing that will actually hold.


Ishtarr thank you for your answer. I had a feeling that you would answer in this way, based on what very little I know of you and your situation through your's and his posts. I think that is often the case in this type of relationship.

I really do very much appreciate your posting on this thread.




LaTigresse -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 7:28:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

To all: Thank you for being involved in this discussion. It has helped more than many of you may realize. I will read responses, and try to respond in an objective manner, but that may not be possible at this time.

I will try and make time to relate a positive CNC case, that shows many of the things that must be established to increase the chance of success. These things can, and should, be established in any relationship.


Orion, thank you for creating this thread and all of your contributions. I think it is appreciated more than you know.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 7:37:36 AM)

quote:

There was no "prior or outside" the constraints of the dynamic.
He was the force that compelled me to desire to please him from the start.
It really was as simple as that... everything else just came from that. There was no start to our "dynamic", which is probably why it never really had a definitive endpoint either... at least for me.



I can really relate to that, and that's actually, I think, what I'm looking for. A place where things just "are."
That's the way my previous relationship was once we started hanging out in person -- it sort of fell into place. I think that's what I'm referring to when I ramble about "sparks" and "energy" or whatever.
I don't 'really have any experience "coming in from outside," if that makes sense.
Even though I balked about the hair thing, it wasn't out of wanting to say "no," but out of irrational fear.

Anyway -- thanks for that; that's a great way to put it. The end came because he died, but the way he had gotten so woven into everything about me and my life, it was a very difficult thing to come to grips with. Moreso than other deaths I've experienced.
At Year 3 post, I'm finally "over it" and welcoming new experiences and new people into my life, but I find that I do mostly respond to people and situations that "just are." Where there is no beginning, it's just "the way it is."

I don't really know if that's good or bad, or if I could really change that.




happylittlepet -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 9:02:47 AM)

quote:


There was no "prior or outside" the constraints of the dynamic.
He was the force that compelled me to desire to please him from the start.
It really was as simple as that... everything else just came from that. There was no start to our "dynamic", which is probably why it never really had a definitive endpoint either... at least for me.


This happened very recently to me. Exactly how Ishtarr it describes. Word for word. Breath taking. All I thought I could ever hope for. The first man I reached out to in years, for friendship, and the world just stopped. His way, not mine. It developed so naturally. I slowly let my guard down. And it was great. Until he pulled the rug from beneath my feet, and told me he made a 'mistake'. And the bad part is, he knew about all the abuse in my past. I trusted him. What is worse, the ties are still there, in my head. And I have gone back over everything that happened, I had reason to trust him. I would not have allowed it to happen if I didn't have trust, it couldn't have happened without trust. It also couldn't have happened if I wasn't the person who I am on the inside.

I regret nothing, I have learned so much, and still cherish every moment, and yet it hurts so much as well. To me it's CNC at its finest and at its worst at the same time.

What is sad is, like Ishtarr wrote also, this is a one-time-experience-without-reservations only. Never again will I be able to step into a relationship like this without reservations. Never again can this happen, because the first time I thought 'this is it', absolutely unexpected. So beautiful and yet built on nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

I can really relate to that, and that's actually, I think, what I'm looking for. A place where things just "are."
That's the way my previous relationship was once we started hanging out in person -- it sort of fell into place. I think that's what I'm referring to when I ramble about "sparks" and "energy" or whatever.
I don't 'really have any experience "coming in from outside," if that makes sense.
Even though I balked about the hair thing, it wasn't out of wanting to say "no," but out of irrational fear.

Anyway -- thanks for that; that's a great way to put it. The end came because he died, but the way he had gotten so woven into everything about me and my life, it was a very difficult thing to come to grips with. Moreso than other deaths I've experienced.
At Year 3 post, I'm finally "over it" and welcoming new experiences and new people into my life, but I find that I do mostly respond to people and situations that "just are." Where there is no beginning, it's just "the way it is."

I don't really know if that's good or bad, or if I could really change that.


Same thing, it just was, for me. I thought it was the same for him. I had never expected it possible for someone to pull off what he did, and not mean it. Lesson learned. But it does put the possibility of an 'it just is' experience on thin ice.

And no, I don't think I can change myself on the inside either. So my guards are back up, completely and yet I know who i am and what I need and want more clearly than ever before. I am my own worst enemy, and I have to protect myself against myself.





Missokyst -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 9:48:33 AM)

This for me is the most understandable description of the type of relationships in which I never really leave. I look back at my life and though I have had encounters which may have lasted years, for me they are only encounters. I don't regard the majority of those as serious inroads into my life. But for the 2 who have touched me in this (CNC) way, the imprint is permanant.
It is almost like I was a notepad which had a map written that was pressed deep into the fiber of the page and even though that top piece was removed long ago there was something in them which rubbed the message and revealed the path I was meant to follow. All other men who have come and gone in my life just touched the surface and never reached the soul.
I still have that CNC in place and it doesn't scare me at all. Deep down it still is the map which shows me direction.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
I wanted to emphasize that for some people these types of relationships aren't just a dangerous alternative to a more "safe" format of relationship, but are quite literally, the only way they can achieve the path to relationships.

But because of the nature of the people usually drawn to these types of relationships they are not generally bad for the ones involved... even when most everything goes wrong.

Ishtar







Ishtarr -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 10:43:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

What is sad is, like Ishtarr wrote also, this is a one-time-experience-without-reservations only. Never again will I be able to step into a relationship like this without reservations. Never again can this happen, because the first time I thought 'this is it', absolutely unexpected. So beautiful and yet built on nothing.



My personal believes are that a slave is a person governed by an external force.
Without an external force governing them, a person can at the most be somebody who acts as if they where a slave.

This is why I personally don't believe in giving consent, or obeying because you gave your word, or agreeing to slave contracts, or anything like that. If obedience comes from within, it's a free choice made by a freethinking individual, and to me, it's not slavery. I don't care if people call it slavery because they like the term, but to me it's not, and instead a choice made by a free person to do something they personally desire to do.

Because of this I wasn't my previous owner's slave the entire time I was in his collar. The only time I spend as his slave was between the time he first became able to compel my obedience from me, and the time he seized to be able to compel my obedience from me. However, due to circumstance, I ended up acting out the protocol a slave would follow for longer than that time, which in retrospect, I consider and incredible idiotic thing to do. I probably consider that my single biggest mistake in the whole mess that was our break up.

And now, it causes me to struggle with that "being" that once came so spontaneous and natural.
I've always been a bit of a control freak, wanting to have a grip on things as they happened. And when I was first confronted with the external force of my ex-Master compelling my obedience from me, it was such a liberating experience. It was as if I finally attained permission to let go, stop my head from spinning, relax and just "be" in the moment.
It was quite literally an addicting experience, one that I became dependent on in order to be able to relax and feel comfortable in my own skin.

Now, after the break up, I have the almost opposite spontaneous reaction when confronted with an external force compelling my obedience. Instead of relaxing and letting go, I cramp up and grasp at everything even more tightly than before. My head starts spinning off like crazy, because I desperately try to calculate and predict all the possible permutations of what could theoretically happen if I dare to actually let go, and react to the external force, instead of resisting it.
Its an experience that creates hostility, stress and distrust in me, where it used to be the most liberating, beautiful and relaxing thing that could ever happen.

I, in essence, have totally lost my capability to submit, because I have total lost the reactionary symbioses that used to exist between my desire to let go of everything and my desire to control everything.
I can make myself go through the motions, as if I where submitting, but I can no longer just react.

It's why I deeply believe I can no longer be a slave again, because I don't see that blank ability to react without hesitation ever fully returning like it was the first time. I don't ever see myself falling in a relationship again where things just "are" from the start.
I do see myself continue to work on, and overcome a who lot of inhibitions which will allow me to have a more natural dealing with my own emotions and reactions again. But the all-encompassing faith and lack of hesitation I had that first time, is not something I ever see returning.

I'm not ever sure I want it to even. The middle ground seems a steadier path to walk, because, though it will probably never have the absolute high points I once was capable of experiencing, the lows will not be able to approximate the depths I've felt either.




tazzygirl -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 10:55:14 AM)

quote:

What is worse, the ties are still there, in my head.....

I regret nothing, I have learned so much, and still cherish every moment, and yet it hurts so much as well. To me it's CNC at its finest and at its worst at the same time.

What is sad is, like Ishtarr wrote also, this is a one-time-experience-without-reservations only. Never again will I be able to step into a relationship like this without reservations. Never again can this happen, because the first time I thought 'this is it', absolutely unexpected. So beautiful and yet built on nothing.


I so know this feeling. How can one enter into another relationship when the first still has such a drastic hold? I do not expect anyother relationship to hold the same force as the last. Yet, the next may be even better, just in different ways.

My current will never be like my last. My last will never be like the first. If there is a next, I would expect it to be different from the rest.

No two owners want the same things. Being the same slave would never work.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 11:24:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


My personal believes are that a slave is a person governed by an external force.
Without an external force governing them, a person can at the most be somebody who acts as if they where a slave.

This is why I personally don't believe in giving consent, or obeying because you gave your word, or agreeing to slave contracts, or anything like that. If obedience comes from within, it's a free choice made by a freethinking individual, and to me, it's not slavery. I don't care if people call it slavery because they like the term, but to me it's not, and instead a choice made by a free person to do something they personally desire to do.


That's really interesting -- have you ever gone into detail on that anywhere? I've never really run across that perspective before.
To me, being a slave is about ownership, but human beings derive motivation from so many places, I wouldn't use motivation as a measure. Like, I imagine in places with institutional "illegal" slavery, or caste systems, people in certain positions internalize the "reality" of their role, and they DO act with their own motivation, because they believe that that's their role, their culture, the reason for their existence, and that is what they do.

Not to compare a consensual relationship with non-consensual slavery, but I think if self-motivation exists in the illegal type of slavery, it could certainly exist in the consensual version.

quote:



It's why I deeply believe I can no longer be a slave again, because I don't see that blank ability to react without hesitation ever fully returning like it was the first time. I don't ever see myself falling in a relationship again where things just "are" from the start.
I do see myself continue to work on, and overcome a who lot of inhibitions which will allow me to have a more natural dealing with my own emotions and reactions again. But the all-encompassing faith and lack of hesitation I had that first time, is not something I ever see returning.

I'm not ever sure I want it to even. The middle ground seems a steadier path to walk, because, though it will probably never have the absolute high points I once was capable of experiencing, the lows will not be able to approximate the depths I've felt either.



I can see how your past experience would inform who you are now -- you've experienced something that traumatized you, and a means of self-defense is to never get into a situation that might end that way again.




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