RE: Consensual Non-consent

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sexyred1 -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 11:45:43 AM)
I find this thread excellent, thought provoking and extremely sad. I relate to many of the things said and will only say that both parties in a relationship really need to take full ownership of their motivations and actions in order for CNC to work.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 11:52:21 AM)
(somehow missed the story Orion posted until now) That is an interesting case -- where a person with a psychology degree (but who also had various pathologies of his own) used his skills and knowledge in a negative way, to effectively brainwash another person without her knowing (probably made easier by finding her when she was young and very impressionable). I don't believe IE, in and of itself, is a bad thing at all. I like that the conclusion of the story explains that this girl still lives in a CNC/IE relationship, but things are done in a more proper way. Hopefully you can elaborate on differences between negative and positive IE techniques? That is a really interesting story -- sad, but poignant. Thanks for sharing it with us.

SilverBoat -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 11:55:37 AM)
Aye, it's been a really good thread, perhaps especially so because the various points of discussion, even where there was disagreement, were handled with positive efforts at respect and civility by all involved. Obviously CNC isn't for everybody, or even good for everybody, or even one definition for everybody. But within their conception of it, sometimes for some people it produces what they perceived as beneficial effects. And if those outweigh the downsides, then the net result, in those cases, is worthwhile in proper measure. ~SB

happylittlepet -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 12:03:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr My personal believes are that a slave is a person governed by an external force. Without an external force governing them, a person can at the most be somebody who acts as if they where a slave. That's how it is with me. I know who/what I am. 'It' only responds when compelled. Every time I am not, it's not there, and I can't pretend. I find this very difficult to describe though. I serve a lot of people, I love a lot of people. But it doesn't satisfy, because it's my choice to serve and love. Being compelled satisfies levels of being that I didn't know could be satisfied. quote: This is why I personally don't believe in giving consent, or obeying because you gave your word, or agreeing to slave contracts, or anything like that. If obedience comes from within, it's a free choice made by a freethinking individual, and to me, it's not slavery. I don't care if people call it slavery because they like the term, but to me it's not, and instead a choice made by a free person to do something they personally desire to do. I don't like the term at all. But it is what i am. I have fought it, long and hard. I have made peace with it. I had to, there was too much stress when trying to be someone who I am not. I find it difficult when people equate being slave with being a doormat. I am everything but. quote: Because of this I wasn't my previous owner's slave the entire time I was in his collar. The only time I spend as his slave was between the time he first became able to compel my obedience from me, and the time he seized to be able to compel my obedience from me. However, due to circumstance, I ended up acting out the protocol a slave would follow for longer than that time, which in retrospect, I consider and incredible idiotic thing to do. I probably consider that my single biggest mistake in the whole mess that was our break up. I don't see that as a mistake. At the moment you acted out the protocol, it made perfect sense to you. To me this has something to do with having hope. With longing. At the moments when I struggled with 'being in the moment' I blamed myself, and I knew full well that somehow he was utilizing that and I was ok with that. quote: And now, it causes me to struggle with that "being" that once came so spontaneous and natural. I've always been a bit of a control freak, wanting to have a grip on things as they happened. And when I was first confronted with the external force of my ex-Master compelling my obedience from me, it was such a liberating experience. It was as if I finally attained permission to let go, stop my head from spinning, relax and just "be" in the moment. It was quite literally an addicting experience, one that I became dependent on in order to be able to relax and feel comfortable in my own skin. Yes, that's how it is. And it's part of who I am, how I function, and part of why this kind of dynamic works for me. His presence made everything fall into place. I have learned to give reasonably good direction to my own life, but it's nothing like having that focus. quote: Now, after the break up, I have the almost opposite spontaneous reaction when confronted with an external force compelling my obedience. Instead of relaxing and letting go, I cramp up and grasp at everything even more tightly than before. My head starts spinning off like crazy, because I desperately try to calculate and predict all the possible permutations of what could theoretically happen if I dare to actually let go, and react to the external force, instead of resisting it. Its an experience that creates hostility, stress and distrust in me, where it used to be the most liberating, beautiful and relaxing thing that could ever happen. I, in essence, have totally lost my capability to submit, because I have total lost the reactionary symbioses that used to exist between my desire to let go of everything and my desire to control everything. I can make myself go through the motions, as if I where submitting, but I can no longer just react. It's why I deeply believe I can no longer be a slave again, because I don't see that blank ability to react without hesitation ever fully returning like it was the first time. I don't ever see myself falling in a relationship again where things just "are" from the start. I do see myself continue to work on, and overcome a who lot of inhibitions which will allow me to have a more natural dealing with my own emotions and reactions again. But the all-encompassing faith and lack of hesitation I had that first time, is not something I ever see returning. I'm not ever sure I want it to even. The middle ground seems a steadier path to walk, because, though it will probably never have the absolute high points I once was capable of experiencing, the lows will not be able to approximate the depths I've felt either. I wish you well.

happylittlepet -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 12:06:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I so know this feeling. How can one enter into another relationship when the first still has such a drastic hold? I do not expect anyother relationship to hold the same force as the last. Yet, the next may be even better, just in different ways. My current will never be like my last. My last will never be like the first. If there is a next, I would expect it to be different from the rest. No two owners want the same things. Being the same slave would never work. Thank you Tazzy.

Ishtarr -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 12:08:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr My personal believes are that a slave is a person governed by an external force. Without an external force governing them, a person can at the most be somebody who acts as if they where a slave. That's really interesting -- have you ever gone into detail on that anywhere? I've never really run across that perspective before. To me, being a slave is about ownership, but human beings derive motivation from so many places, I wouldn't use motivation as a measure. Like, I imagine in places with institutional "illegal" slavery, or caste systems, people in certain positions internalize the "reality" of their role, and they DO act with their own motivation, because they believe that that's their role, their culture, the reason for their existence, and that is what they do. Not to compare a consensual relationship with non-consensual slavery, but I think if self-motivation exists in the illegal type of slavery, it could certainly exist in the consensual version. I don't want to derail Orion's thread with a side point, so if you want to delve into this any deeper please start a new thread. I believe that in as a broad generalization, people can experience slavery/freedom in 4 different states: - Externally (legally) free and internally free - Externally (legally) free and internally enslaved - Externally (legally) enslaved and internally free - Externally (legally) enslaved and internally enslaved The pivoting point to qualify as being enslaved, either legally or internally, is that behavior needs to be governed by a source outside the subject themselves. The pivoting point to qualify as being free, either legally or internally, is that behavior needs to be self-determined by the subject themselves. Obviously people are not ever black an white, so the dynamic between slavery and freedom isn't necessarily black and white either, as in the fact that people can for instance be externally and internally free in a general sense, but still have some part of themselves governed by an external force making them a "slave" in that sense; or a person can be externally and internally enslaved in a general sense, but remain their self-determination in some part, for instance in their moral system in relation to things like committing murder or suicide. I and others have written extensively on these types of views on the Gorean board. I can dig you up some links when I've got the time if you would care to read them.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 12:11:28 PM)
Thanks Ishtarr -- nope, no intention of derailing this snazzy thread, either, I'd just never seen that particular perspective so I wanted to ask. I'd appreciate any links.

happylittlepet -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 12:17:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep Thanks Ishtarr -- nope, no intention of derailing this snazzy thread, either, I'd just never seen that particular perspective so I wanted to ask. I'd appreciate any links. This thread is just over a year old. http://www.collarchat.com/m_3551144/mpage_1/tm.htm Surprisingly we both participated in that thread as well. Maybe that's not so surprising though.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/12/2012 2:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep (somehow missed the story Orion posted until now) That is an interesting case -- where a person with a psychology degree (but who also had various pathologies of his own) used his skills and knowledge in a negative way, to effectively brainwash another person without her knowing (probably made easier by finding her when she was young and very impressionable). Investigation of the internet group he was a part of revealed they targeted young girls just because they were impressionable. Also, they had a profile of certain things they were looking for as well. This included, but was not limited to girls with poor self esteem and no father figure in their lives. quote: I don't believe IE, in and of itself, is a bad thing at all. I like that the conclusion of the story explains that this girl still lives in a CNC/IE relationship, but things are done in a more proper way. Yes they are, and she went into her current CNC relationship understanding things, especially the man involved, much better than before. quote: Hopefully you can elaborate on differences between negative and positive IE techniques? That is a really interesting story -- sad, but poignant. Thanks for sharing it with us. Often the techniques used are not much different, put the intent and purpose are. Also, any person that is going to be trained using IE, especially within a CNC relationship should have fore knowledge of it so they can make an informed consent in the beginning, because as time goes by they will be unable to. I hope that the stories related here allow better perspectives of what happens. Often though, a relationship does not start as CNC and migrates there. Also, many do not realize the methods they are using are in fact IE techniques, and what can happen. Many of these training technques have been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years. I will try to get to more things later, for now I would like the exchange about the other stories to happen. I would like to point out that CNC and IE are in fact two different things, but that they happen together so often, it is difficult to speak of one without the other.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/13/2012 7:23:40 PM)
~FR~ I thought this may be of interest to some, and relates directly to some of the testimonials: "As to why individuals are interested in exploring non-consent, there could be many reasons, but what it boils down to is the pursuit of knowledge (in the broadest sense), psychological growth or improvement, increased psychological strength. It is not actually that people want to suffer the distress of coercion: what they want (consciously or unconsciously) is to learn something. Engaging with non-consent is psychologically challenging, and when you survive and meet a challenge, you come out the other side stronger, more able to meet other challenges too. That is a powerfully satisfying feeling, and knowing that you can do this can enable you to remain rational in entirely unrelated difficult situations. This is useful in life. Amongst other things, it means that you are less likely to be upset by things." http://www.takeninhand.com/node/137 and this: "We draw inspiration both from existing accounts of Total Power Exchange, and from mainstream Psychology. Furthermore, we believe it is essential that theories of ownership are tested by comparison with the real lives of slaves and submissives. " http://www.enslavement.org.uk/ "3. Consent derives from property rights O&P is defined in terms of property, and so uses property as its ethical foundation. People are born owning themselves, under the guardianship of parents. As adults, people have the right to hand over some or all of their self-ownership. Respect for property rights requires that O&P must be entered with the freely given informed consent of the submissive. 4. Responsibility for maintaining property As with all property, if it is not looked after over time, the ability to use or own it is lost. For this reason, needs cannot be left unaddressed over time, by the definition of "needs" themselves. Maintenance of property demands responsibility, and in O&P this is a cardinal virtue of dominants and owners. " http://www.ownership-possession.com/manifesto Will try and make more time later, as I compose one of the cases I worked on, so a positive experience can be expressed using the methods mentioned to not only create a very deep relationship, but to assist a slave in overcoming many psychological and meotional issues they had.

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