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OrionTheWolf -> Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 5:10:09 PM)

A topic I do not see discussed in these forums often, and one that seems to illicit very emotional responses, is consensual non-consent as a dynamic. While there are many kinks and fetishes that people do not like, this seems to be one that is not only disliked by a large majority, but is also insulted often. Because of this please let us try and be civil.

One of the first problems is defining what it is. Looking at various essays and websites (some of which I have written but will not shamelessly plug here), there may be some common elements, but the more many try to define it, the more variance there seems to be.

I would like to read what others believe CNC is, and opinions on it. I understand there are many that believe it is abuse, or goes against their ethics, which is fine. Not all of us will like the same things. I hope the discussion can be done in a way that does not cause the Mods any grief, but I also believe the more something is discussed and examined, the better it can be understood, and defined.

What is your definition of CNC?

What are your views on it?

If you believe it to be disliked by many, why do you believe this to be?




littlewonder -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 5:40:50 PM)

I guess you could call what we do to be consensual non-consent although for me I don't think of it in any terms because it's just a natural relationship for us.

For us I consented once and once only. After that it's fair game what he does with me because he owns me. The moment I agreed to be his slave I agreed to do whatever he wants....whether I like it or not.

BUT, I never took this lightly, I never jumped in. We talked and got to know one another. Our morals and values are similar and I trust him completely with my life.

Yeah there are things he likes that I absolutely hate, but ya know...I'll live. They aren't limits. I'll still wake up in the morning still loving him and wanting him in my life. Sure, I might be a little pissed off lol but I'll get over it.

If something comes up that I'm having difficulty with we talk about it like two rational adults and then he decides as to whether it needs tweaking or that it's not worth the pain of our relationship or that it's simply not going to hurt me and I'll survive.




amaidiamond -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 5:48:15 PM)

For me, well C/NC best describes the relationship I am in.

I gave myself to him, and gave him blanket consent. That means that he can do as he pleases with me.

I might not like it, I may even hate it. It might not be what i want at that time, but then again it might.

It is not a choice I made lightly, I knew him a long time before engaging on the path we are on and I trust him quite litterally with my life.

A lot of it is "can" and "will". Yes, he "could" beat me black and blue, lock me in a box, starve me, cut me off from family and friends and carve his name all over my body. "would" he? No, my physical, mental and emotional health is important to him, We share similar morals, values, desires.

If there is something I really struggle with, I am not just "allowed" to tell him, I "have" to tell him, so that he can have all the information before making a decision. He may go ahead and do it anyway but I know he will have considered everything before making that choice.

I don't know about here on CM, but on the other site i am on there is no great hatred of C/NC.





RaspberryLemon -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 6:28:29 PM)

There are two definitions of consensual non-consent that I've come across. One refers to "false resistance," "pretend rape" and things like that--my Master and I don't have any interest in that and thus don't engage in it. The second definition of consensual non-consent seems to be as the above posters have stated--giving blanket consent, just once, and then their life is entirely in the hands of the one they have consented to.

I suppose one could classify my relationship as "consensual non-consent," although I've never personally called it that, because including the word "non-consent" just souns  a little off to me. He is my Master and my owner and I gave myself to him completely, and that means what he says, goes. This was obviously not a choice made frivolously; I put a lot of thought into it and made sure I trusted him with my life, agreed with him on the "big stuff" in life, and loved him with every fiber of my being before deciding to put my life and entire being in his hands.

I don't have to like the decisions he makes, and of course he always takes into account my input (which I am required to give,) but when it comes down to it he has the ultimate authority and I will obey him. I trust that he is making the best decision for us, and I trust that what he does with me has been carefully considered by him. He can do whatever he wants with me, as long as it is not something that will actually damage me--physically, mentally, and/or emotionally--and although my opinion counts to him, what constitutes something "damaging" is ultimately up to his discretion. And I trust that he has good judgment and that he will take good care of me--taking me as his property, I am now his responsibility, and he does not take that lightly.

I don't think this type of arrangement is for everybody, and I certainly don't think it's a decision that should ever be taken lightly--which is probably why some view it in a negative light, because of the potential for abuse (and some people just don't like the taste it leaves in their mouth--it's not for them, and that's no big deal, it's their right to decide what does and does not work for the.) Some also don't believe that a situation like this is realistically possible. However, I DO believe this type of arrangement can work successfully and happily if the people want it, work towards it, and are compatible with each other.

((Edited to add a couple things.))




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 6:34:53 PM)

I agree with RL on the idea that there are two different concepts sometimes being referred to. Some people limit it to their play style, or a single scene, but the overall relationship is run differently, and others think of it as the entire dynamic.
to me, it makes sense in ownership relationships, and is something I'm attracted to.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 6:42:24 PM)

Easy to answer, everyone over 18 is allowed to give consent. That should expose a major problem with the concept of consent in general.

I am not a big fan of labels as the people who cling to them the most often deserve them the least.

For me, its making her crave things that were once hard limits that gets me off and if thats cnc or fluffy or type xd15 I am fine.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 7:07:58 PM)

It is not so much labels, but having a discussion about something where everyone understands what is meant. I am not for labels much either, but communication requires word usage, which requires defintions. Otherwise we have "only at what this does make not should the candy be put on the carrot, when dumping the water."

I will say I am pleasantly surprised in the different attitude this has received compared to a few years ago when it was brought up.

So at what point is consent withdrawn? What if the s type leaves? What if they are an emotional episode? What are the opinions on physical restraints to impose it during emotional episodes? At what point would abuse actually be a factor?




LookieNoNookie -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 7:10:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

A topic I do not see discussed in these forums often, and one that seems to illicit very emotional responses, is consensual non-consent as a dynamic. While there are many kinks and fetishes that people do not like, this seems to be one that is not only disliked by a large majority, but is also insulted often. Because of this please let us try and be civil.

One of the first problems is defining what it is. Looking at various essays and websites (some of which I have written but will not shamelessly plug here), there may be some common elements, but the more many try to define it, the more variance there seems to be.

I would like to read what others believe CNC is, and opinions on it. I understand there are many that believe it is abuse, or goes against their ethics, which is fine. Not all of us will like the same things. I hope the discussion can be done in a way that does not cause the Mods any grief, but I also believe the more something is discussed and examined, the better it can be understood, and defined.

What is your definition of CNC?

What are your views on it?

If you believe it to be disliked by many, why do you believe this to be?


I don't consent, unless consent is given...once consent is given I verify consent. If consent has been verified, I contact an appropriate 3rd party....I then ask that consent has been given and verified. If that can be verified, I then verify same through (obvious) channels.

Once consent has been (thoroughly) verified, I then verify through appropriate channels.

Verification, of course, can take time. This of course, requires verification.

(I'm getting tired now).




littlewonder -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 7:34:18 PM)

consent ends if we end the relationship. Period.
Like I said, I trust him with my entire life and I know him well enough to know that what he does is not abused and I don't feel abused. If you feel abused then one should rethink their relationship and probably leave. But I have to say I'm quite happy with where I am. It makes my life rather easy.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 7:57:23 PM)

Orion,

It could be we have both mellowed a bit, lol!

I firmly believe I would be married today if I was closer to someone and could have thrown her over my knee and spanked some sense into her against her will. However, if it became clear it wasnt working that force would become abusive.

In some ways I think it only becomes clear in hindsight. Someone wants to be forcedd, give consent and,then realize.....oh,shit bad idea. I think part of the problem is we apply vanilla standards after the fact and we shouldnt. Some breaks a leg skydiving, shit happens, someone breaks a leg in a store, lawsuit. You ask to be violated and you dont like how you were violated, I dont hold the victimizer to the same standards.

Another aspect is the quality of consent, some doormat gives consent because theor life is a mess, they need to be rescued, that consent isnt as good to me as someone who has,options, money, education, to do anything and chooses to be a no limits cnc slave. Similar to consent from a 20 yeard old girl, kids consent to stupid shit they regret all the time.




Kaliko -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 8:43:32 PM)

You know, I've never really considered the term before. But when I read the original post, I thought to myself "Wait...isn't that what submission means? How does one say no?"

As Lilly said, I guess there are different ways of looking at it. I'm looking at it from a relationship point of view. And I think that's why I'm so particular about who I even begin to think about maybe getting involved with. I am anticipating, I suppose, consensual non-consent, if I'm going to call it something, and that's pretty big doings with an enormous amount of trust. No small task to fish that out off the dating sites, you know?

I guess, seeing as the only type of relationship I've ever really thought about has been my own, that I never really considered there would be anything but consensual non-consent. Further, I didn't realize that it is a separate "thing" with its own name and all. I thought...incorrectly, I guess...that is just what submission is.

ETA - Hmm. I tried "Post Reply" instead of "Fast Reply" to see if it would show me responding to the OP. It didn't, so..clarification, this is in response to the OP.




catize -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 9:04:33 PM)

quote:

What are your views on it?


The concept is appealing to me, but I have never met anyone worthy of that extreme trust. Doesn't mean he doesn't exist, I just never met him.
I admire (perhaps envy) those submisssive folk who can trust enough to have a CNC relationship; I also admire the dominants who are aware of the magnitude of that trust; who have a care for their submissive and their relationship.


quote:

If you believe it to be disliked by many, why do you believe this to be?



I believe it is an idea that is mis-used by too many. “Dominants” who want the title, the rights, and the perks without owning their responsibilities. Meet enough of them and one can get jaded (but **I** am not bitter!!)[:D][:D]




LafayetteLady -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 9:31:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

It is not so much labels, but having a discussion about something where everyone understands what is meant. I am not for labels much either, but communication requires word usage, which requires defintions. Otherwise we have "only at what this does make not should the candy be put on the carrot, when dumping the water."

I will say I am pleasantly surprised in the different attitude this has received compared to a few years ago when it was brought up.

So at what point is consent withdrawn? What if the s type leaves? What if they are an emotional episode? What are the opinions on physical restraints to impose it during emotional episodes? At what point would abuse actually be a factor?


Like most things, the labels tend to be as different as the people applying them.  Even if those differences are minor, they exist.

At what point is it withdrawn?  Whenever the parties involve decide to withdraw it.  The bare reality is that even if someone consents to non consent for the rest of their life, they can still change their mind and the person they gave that consent to would be wise to listen to that withdrawal.  At the moment consent is withdrawn, if anything continues, abuse begins.  It isn't rocket science.

As for your comments regarding "emotional episodes," I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are asking.  Are you asking if someone is having an "emotional episode" and withdrawing consent, is it "ok" to restrain them until the emotional episode is over?  No.  Definately not.  Now if the s-type regularly has these "emotional episodes" there is a problem in the relationship and some talking should be occuring, but certainly not restraints.  The exception to this, of course, is if the "no" is part of the scene.  But if the d-type isn't sure whether the "no" is serious or not, stopping is the only logical choice because something is obviously going wrong.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 9:35:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Some breaks a leg skydiving, shit happens, someone breaks a leg in a store, lawsuit. You ask to be violated and you dont like how you were violated, I dont hold the victimizer to the same standards.



While I don't mean to derail, I think the bolded statement is very important. Recently (which to me is based on my getting to the site, so it might not be so recent to others), there have been discussions about subs being "victimized."  While of course "shit happens" that shouldn't, it seems that more often than not, these "victims" are looking in hindsight.  Like you, I don't hold the "victimizer" to the same standard.  While each case is different, more often than not, I would not call that person a "victimizer" at all, and the victim is only a victim in their own mind.




JanahX -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 9:37:24 PM)

My definition is its all fine and dandy until it become a tax payers problem. When these people go into these things and come out of it worse for wear and need taxpayer funded assistance getting themselves right again - thats when I have problems with it.

I also have problems with seeing people inviting set-ups for these types of things and keeping my mouth shut. Only deaf/dumb/blind/ people cant see these train wrecks coming a mile away.




RaspberryLemon -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/8/2012 10:28:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So at what point is consent withdrawn? What if the s type leaves? What if they are an emotional episode? What are the opinions on physical restraints to impose it during emotional episodes? At what point would abuse actually be a factor?

If at any point I withdraw consent, I am ending our relationship. In my mind I do not have the choice to leave my Master's ownership; however realistically, obviously technically I can.

I'm not sure what you mean by "emotional episodes." Like if for some odd reason I was flipping out and having a freak fit? If for some reason that happened of course my Master has every right to impose whatever physical restraint he pleases. As I said in my previous post, he can do whatever he wants with me--he owns me, I am his property.

At what point would abuse be a factor? Abuse would me if my Master were to use his power and authority to do something that would damage me.

Oh, you mentioned in your original post that you've written articles on this subject. If you wouldn't mind, could you link them to me (either in this thread or through private message if you wish not to post them in the thread.) I'm interested in reading them.




amaidiamond -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/9/2012 2:49:09 AM)

I would also be interested in reading the articals if you would not mind.

For me, C/NC ends if the relationship ends and either party walks away.

That said my eventual desire is for Internal Enslavement (as something to be worked towards) which opens up a whole other can of worms.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/9/2012 2:51:26 AM)

LL - in my experiennce, if I needed to talkabout something, it was okay to talk about it. CNC isn't something that you fly into, (hopefully) a person has made a real well-thought choice - we all know the people who jump from no-limits this to CNC that and are left in tatters everytime, but it's just not that way for everyone.
If something was seriously wrong, or I had concerns, was able to talk to him about it.
If I've been enetertaining the idea of a relationship with someone, and I've learned over time that he doesn't respond well to bad situations, he makes bad decisions anyway, etc, then, to me, that person seems like a bad choice to get into CNNC with.

Ii thinnk this is basically the same topic as nno-limits, and people will have their same gripes really.

As far as restraint while flipping out, my previous M physically restrained me once when I was really angry at someone else and leaking it over to him (it takes a lot to get me to do that, and it wasn't the ideal thing to do because nothing was his fault). I wanted to leave, he wanted me to stay, so he made me stay. I don't think it would have been any different if he'd tied me up. :p annd when I chilled out, I apologized and I never did it again.
I could trust him and know that he wasn't going to tie me up and kill me, or leave me down in the basement forever.

Like RL said, abuse, to me, is about damage, not just things that make me uncomfortable. And those were his ideas, too - he had no desire to mutilate me or leave me unable to live a normal life, or need serious medical attention, because he wanted to keep me around. :p

Anyway, i'd also love to read Orion's writings on this topic. :D




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/9/2012 4:05:35 AM)

~FR~

A lot of what everyone is writing is spot on in my opinion. There will be differences from relationship to relationship, but some of the key factors remain the same. It requires complete trust to enter into this type of relationship. That trust must be from both directions, as many owners (or whatever word you wish to use to describe the one in charge) put themselves in vulnerable positions in this type of relationship if any physical punishment or restraint is involved.

Once that trust is broken, is often the limit. Someone touched on it, but these types of relationships often will have the s type say they have no limits. No limit has been discussed, but in many CNC type relationships that is the line. It requires trust to establish it, continued trust to maintain it, and once trust is gone then withdrawal of consent will soon happen.

By emotional episodes I mean, when an s type gets emotional and says "I am leaving". This has happened with my own girl before, and the technique I use for her training, is Internal Enslavement. She has gone so far as to pack her bags, and then stand at the door. She would then usually start to cry, as she would realize she did not have permission to go out the door. Often once cried out, we can return to a rational discussion of whatever issue happened. Afterwards she often says to please never listen to her while in that state.

I have had to physically restrain her once, and once only. Afterwards, she was grateful as her outburst was again based purely on emotion, and once it had passed she realized it was frustration and the inability to contain and control her emotions that caused the issue. Things like this have not happened in a couple of years, because we continue to build upon the trust each day.

The trust on the owner's side comes from the fact that the s type can call the authorities, and as we all know, it will not matter how is right or wrong, based upon our lifestyle. At this point we are subject to the laws of the society around us, which does not care to understand the inter-personal relationship.

Those that rush into these types of relationships, without first establishing trust, often end badly. The reason is that while the CNC is manifesting, they often subconsciously test the trust, because they are not secure in it. A good pair involved, will realize this and have different phases of their relationship. This is not unlike any other relationship we foster with people, that has the introduction, get to know you, bonding, and maintaining phases. It is human nature to usually approach these relationships in this way.

It was mentioned above that the parties must be emotionally stable, and this is correct to a point. That point is that none of us are perfect, and to continue to build trust all parties must admit to the areas they have made mistakes and correct the issues. If someone is too emotionally unstable, then it is more difficult to do this, not to mention, just like in any relationship the episodes of irrationality often erode what has been built.

The consent withdrawn is defined differently in each relationship. Some will say the authority resides only in the owner, and to a point this is correct. Some will say that the combination to any collar is 911, and this is also correct. Both of these are just a reflection of when the consent was actually withdrawn, at the moment that there is no longer enough trust for either party to continue. A good owner will recognize this, and not push the issue of releasing the person just because of ego issues.

It is issues with ego that often destroy things on the owner's side. Many will believe they must never admit mistakes, as it will cause the s type to question their authority in the future. That is incorrect, as what usually causes the questioning is making bad decisions. Many will say only the owner determines what is bad, and that is also incorrect. The s type may not speak it, but all humans make value judgments. If the s type determines the person is not making good decisions, then they do not trust the owner to do what is in the best interest. It is often a precarious balance, which requires a lot of work from both parties to maintain.

The key element is communication between the parties. This is not catering to the s type, this is communication with the other part of the whole. To be an owner, requires someone to own, and to be property (s type) requires someone own you. I have often said that many people cannot be responsible for themselves, much less another human being. If it manifests properly, it can be one of the most fulfilling, and wonderful inter-personal relationships you can have, but both parties must have eyes wide open.

Again I would like to thank everyone that has contributed.




kalikshama -> RE: Consensual Non-consent (2/9/2012 4:07:47 AM)

quote:

As for your comments regarding "emotional episodes," I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are asking.  Are you asking if someone is having an "emotional episode" and withdrawing consent, is it "ok" to restrain them until the emotional episode is over?  No.  Definitely not. 

Now if the s-type regularly has these "emotional episodes" there is a problem in the relationship and some talking should be occurring, but certainly not restraints. 

The exception to this, of course, is if the "no" is part of the scene.  But if the d-type isn't sure whether the "no" is serious or not, stopping is the only logical choice because something is obviously going wrong.


I'm wondering about "emotional episodes" too. I've had anxiety because something was going wrong in a scene. Anything other than the scene ending would have ended very badly for the D.




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