quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think the problem is equating the concept of a supreme being with religion

Yes. And trying to find the devine shortcuts to it's being pleased with you. Somehow I think, following some arcane rituals, and or praying to a supreme being would not interest it. Being the best you can be in the everchanging universe it created might.  If it created this everchanging universe for us to enjoy and be challenged by, do you think it would be pleased to see us stuck in a ritual rut, bound up in old texts rules? That would be a very petty supreme being.

Edited to include. I in no way want the last line or two to be interpreted as a challenge to the one quoted. I agree with her statement. And elaborated on it with my opinions. I don't intend that she is stuck in ritual or such.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrTiger

You can totally ignore what I say and all me a bigot to suit your own purposes if you want, though you are totally wrong to do so I would also just like to point out that by making me out to be a bigot with no actual justification whatsoever means it is in fact you that are applying inaccurate labels to people and not me. I hold no negative view of anyone who follows any of the major world religions even though I do not like some of the deeply bigoted sentiments held within some of them.

(And on a side note, we can disagree as much as we would wish and talk our differences over, but I would suggest that unless you can have a calm and reasoned discussion without resulting to personal attacks of trying to belittle because we disagree(labels aside) - best avoid my posts and block them in the future  )

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think the problem is equating the concept of a supreme being with religion

Yes. And trying to find the devine shortcuts to it's being pleased with you. Somehow I think, following some arcane rituals, and or praying to a supreme being would not interest it. Being the best you can be in the everchanging universe it created might.  If it created this everchanging universe for us to enjoy and be challenged by, do you think it would be pleased to see us stuck in a ritual rut, bound up in old texts rules? That would be a very petty supreme being.

Edited to include. I in no way want the last line or two to be interpreted as a challenge to the one quoted. I agree with her statement. And elaborated on it with my opinions. I don't intend that she is stuck in ritual or such.

As  nonreligious person myself I have never understood them. But when I studied them from an academic view it became clear to me that such rituals serve powerful needs within human beings... therefore I do not think that the supreme being needs us to do these rituals, I think they serve the human being doing them at a societal level and at an individual level...

quote:

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple.

The man spoke first: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."


Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise; maybe you'll win a small lotto; maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain connections."

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars! Can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on "From the desk of Karl" letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

1.) Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2.) Use alcohol in moderation.
3.) Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4.) Eat right.
5.) Hank dictated this list himself.
6.) The moon is made of green cheese.
7.) Everything Hank says is right.
8.) Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.) Don't drink.
10.) Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.) Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.


Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But #9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with #2. And #6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2; 9 just clarifies 2. As to 6, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken.

John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary (sticking her fingers in her ears): "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints.

John (catching her): "Well, if I'd known you were one of those, I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you, I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater." With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.